The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[rebuilder 454]

The following is my reasoning of things over all. Except I let an AI format things for me plus rewrite my thoughts in a manner easy to follow, regardless that you might not agree with some of these conclusions or any of them. But at least you can't complain that you couldn't follow what is being proposed and meant throughout. Will have to do the OP in two posts.
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Part 1:

It is fascinating to watch Pretribulationists completely bypass direct scripture when their timeline is backed into a corner. When presented with the undeniable textual evidence of Revelation 11 and 13, the standard response is to run away from the text, launch a diversion tactic, and throw out a "one-liner" about the "Days of Noah" or claim "that's just for the Jews."
Let’s slow down, look at the actual reasoning, and walk through the scriptures in the exact order they are written. When you harmonize Revelation 11, Revelation 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 17, the Pretrib timeline completely collapses under its own logical contradictions.

1. The Reality of "Peace and Safety" During the Tribulation

Pretribulationists vehemently claim that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 ("When they say, 'Peace and safety!' then sudden destruction comes upon them") must describe a normal, prosperous world before the 7-year tribulation begins. They argue that the Tribulation is a period of non-stop, total global chaos that would make a mindset of "peace and safety" impossible.

But the text of Revelation completely obliterates this assumption. Look at Revelation 11:8–10:

The Two Witnesses are killed by the Beast. The text explicitly states: "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

Consider the mechanics of this passage:

• The Global Euphoria: The wicked world is experiencing a global, synchronized celebration. Why? Because the tormenting plagues brought by God's prophets have stopped. The global population feels a profound sense of relief, security, and triumph. They are literally experiencing a state of "peace and safety."

• The Economic Infrastructure: If the planet had already been utterly obliterated by God's total, final wrath during the early seals and trumpets, how is the global population still operating an economy stable enough to ship gifts to one another worldwide?

• The Pretrib Dilemma: Pretribulationists place the death of the Two Witnesses right at the midpoint of the 7 years—long after their supposed rapture. Therefore, by their own timeline, a global state of "peace and safety" and merry-making occurs inside the Tribulation.

• The Sudden Destruction: Immediately after this global celebration (v. 11-19), the Two Witnesses are resurrected, a massive earthquake strikes, the 7th Trumpet sounds, and the final, catastrophic Bowl judgments of God’s actual wrath begin. This is the exact definition of "then sudden destruction comes upon them" from 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

2. The Fallacy of the "Days of Noah" Argument

When cornered on this, Pretribulationists will pivot to Matthew 24 or Luke 17 and say, "But Jesus said before the flood there is normal life, marriage, commerce, and everyday life... therefore His coming must be Pretrib!"

This argument completely backfires for two reasons:

First, Jesus explicitly establishes the chronology in Matthew 24:29-37. In verse 29, He says: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Then, in verse 30, He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear. Only after stating this does He say in verse 37: "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Jesus does not place the days of Noah before the tribulation; He places the comparison after it.

Second, this "normal life" perfectly matches the Revelation 13 economic system. The world worshiping the Beast is buying, selling, eating, drinking, and building an empire (Rev 13:17).

For the wicked, life continues in its ungodly normalcy right up until the day the final wrath hits them, just like in the days of Noah and Lot. They are saying "peace and safety" in their wicked normalcy, completely blind to the fact that sudden destruction is coming right after the tribulation ends.

A ton of commentary with no valid points.
One assumption after another.
Your copy paste article needs the source.
That article glosses over Rev 13.
Ahem, the chapter proving the postrib rapture house of cards topples when i pick it up from the floor where you guys shove it.
Your article is typical of cherrypicking one liners to convice non bereeans of a tired old doctrine..

 

[rebuilder 454]

The OP continued--Part 2:

3. The Luke 17 Puzzle and the "Bookend" Reality

Many people struggle to interpret Luke 17 coherently because it appears to scramble the timeline. In Matthew 24, the "housetop" escape warning is at the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:15-18), but the "flood" and "taken/left" language are placed after the Tribulation (Matt 24:37-41). Yet in Luke 17, Jesus weaves them tightly together.

How do we reconcile this? By understanding that the "revealing" of the Son of Man is a prophetic 42-month era, not a split-second flash.

The moment the Abomination of Desolation occurs at the beginning of great tribulation, Christ's final prophetic timeline is openly unmasked and revealed to the world.

In Luke 17, Jesus uses the transition from "day" (v. 31) to "night" (v. 34) to describe the two opposite bookends of this 42-month crisis era:

• The Beginning of the Day (The Housetop Emergency, v. 31): The 42-month era kicks off. The Beast takes power, and believers must immediately flee to the mountains and abandon their worldly goods in order to not be a victim of the coming falling away. But not flleing to literal mountains, though. But fleeing in order to avoid spiritual apostacy.


• The End of the Night (The Final Separation, v. 34-36): The 42-month era closes. At the very end of this dark period—which Matthew 24 tells us is after the tribulation—the final, sudden separation occurs. The flood of God's wrath hits, and the wicked are swept away.

4. Shutting Down the "Jews-Only" Escape Hatch

When a Pretribulationist realizes this bookend concept makes sense, they will try to use their ultimate wildcard escape hatch: "That housetop warning is only for the Jews left behind after the rapture! It has nothing to do with the Church!"

If you say that, your entire timeline completely implodes upon itself. Look at the trap you just walked into:

1. Pretribulationists loudly claim that "one taken, the other left" in the bed and the field (Luke 17:34-36) is the Rapture of the Church.

2. However, Jesus explicitly states that this "taken/left" separation happens "in that day" when the housetop emergency is occurring (Luke 17:31).

3. Therefore, if you claim the housetop flight is only for "left-behind Jews" after the Church is already gone, then the "taken/left" events in the very next verses cannot be the Pretrib Rapture. You cannot rapture the Church out of the bed and the field if the Church has already been gone for 3.5 years!

By your own logic, if the housetop warning applies to tribulation-period people, then the people being "taken" from the bed and the field must also be those same tribulation-period people. You completely lose your favorite Rapture proof-text.

Furthermore, where does Jesus ever say in Matthew 24 or Luke 17, "This part is for the Church, but that part is only for the Jews"? He doesn't. He is speaking directly to His Apostles—the very men who became the foundational pillars of the Christian Church (Ephesians 2:20). When Jesus says "When ye shall see..." He is talking to the Church.

The ultimate destination of the "left" in Luke 17:37 proves it is Posttrib judgment. When the disciples ask "Where, Lord?", Jesus replies: "Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered together." This is the exact imagery of Revelation 19:17-18 at the battle of Armageddon—after the tribulation—where the birds of prey feed on the corpses of the wicked. Keeping in mind, as of Revelation 19:17-18, there is not a single saint still on earth. They are all up in the sky with Jesus because they were taken in the Posttrib rapture, and the ones still on the earth below are the ones left.

Conclusion

The text is seamless. The Great Tribulation is an era of human and Satanic persecution against the saints, while the wicked world enjoys a deceptive state of economic "peace and safety," buying, selling, and celebrating under the Beast's system.

But immediately after that tribulation, the prophetic bookend closes. Christ returns, the saints are gathered, and "sudden destruction" sweeps the oblivious, wicked world away to judgment—just like the days of Noah, and just like the days of Lot.

You don't have to convince yourself that Jesus was mistaken. You just have to read the text exactly how He said it.

Uh, no, there will indeed be scrambling at the rapture as JESUS vividly illustrated in the 10 virgin parable.
The writer of that article you posted is a lightweight.
A dreamer with endless commentary that is easily debunked.

I give it an F.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So what is the link to the op article?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You raise some good points that need to be addressed. Let's see what the pre trib team has to say. @rebuilder 454 @marks @CrowCross

The commentary of that article is huge.
Pick a point and let's debunk it.
I will tie half my brain behind my back to make it fair.

 

[CrowCross]

Second, this "normal life" perfectly matches the Revelation 13 economic system. The world worshiping the Beast is buying, selling, eating, drinking, and building an empire (Rev 13:17).

What do you consider as normal?
Rev 13 happens after the first 4 seals were opened. Seal 4 is going to be this...8Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Sounds like 1/4 of the population dies...THEN...we can even look at Rev 8 and the trumpets...7 Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.....That's a lot of fire. Then this will happen...10 Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

By the time we get to Rev 13...the world is pretty shaken up. Would you agree?

You said "Second, this "normal life" perfectly matches the Revelation 13 economic system"....define "perfectly match".

 

[rebuilder 454]

What do you consider as normal?
Rev 13 happens after the first 4 seals were opened. Seal 4 is going to be this...8Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Sounds like 1/4 of the population dies...THEN...we can even look at Rev 8 and the trumpets...7 Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.....That's a lot of fire. Then this will happen...10 Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters.

By the time we get to Rev 13...the world is pretty shaken up. Would you agree?

You said "Second, this "normal life" perfectly matches the Revelation 13 economic system"....define "perfectly match".

In rev 13 the saints are being martyred by the millions.

Yep, that is normal life...ROLLEYES.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A ton of commentary with no valid points.
One assumption after another.
Your copy paste article needs the source.
That article glosses over Rev 13.
Ahem, the chapter proving the postrib rapture house of cards topples when i pick it up from the floor where you guys shove it.
Your article is typical of cherrypicking one liners to convice non bereeans of a tired old doctrine..

You noticeably don't even attempt to address any of the points. Why not? Is it too much to ask for you to actually address opposing viewpoints instead of always just brushing them off. I know why you don't address them. You don't know how to address them. You have no answers for them. If you did, then you would address them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In rev 13 the saints are being martyred by the millions.

Yep, that is normal life...ROLLEYES.

It's not believers who are oblivious to the coming wrath of Christ, it's unbelievers. Unbelievers will be living their lives, carrying on as normal, like in the days of Noah, and then Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and destroy them. Have you never read these passages...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Paul said that unbelievers will be saying peace and safety (thinking everything is normal) and the next thing they know they will be suddenly and unexpectedly destroyed. Peter indicated that this will happen globally. How in the world do you think that a 7 year time period of tribulation could follow that? Not possible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The commentary of that article is huge.
Pick a point and let's debunk it.
I will tie half my brain behind my back to make it fair.

You will not do that or you already would have done it. Stop being so dishonest. You have no interest in making any effort to debunk anything. You just make claims with no exegesis and think that's enough. It's not.

 

[marks]

You raise some good points that need to be addressed. Let's see what the pre trib team has to say. @rebuilder 454 @marks @CrowCross

What am I supposed to answer to here??

Except I let an AI format things for me plus rewrite my thoughts in a manner easy to follow,

No thanks.

 

[CrowCross]

In rev 13 the saints are being martyred by the millions.

Yep, that is normal life...ROLLEYES.

It makes me wonder what the post tribbers think normal is.

This "normal" that the post tribbers present certainly isn't what jesus speaks of when He mentioned the social economical condition that will be related to the days of non or Lot.

 

[CrowCross]

It's not believers who are oblivious to the coming wrath of Christ, it's unbelievers. Unbelievers will be living their lives, carrying on as normal, like in the days of Noah, and then Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and destroy them. Have you never read these passages...

The ONLY time slot that fits is the current pre-trib time slot.

Will you explain how the events presented in Revelation are "normal"?

 

[marks]

Is the Sheep Goats judgment to happen EXACTLY as written? This is a fundamental Rapture question.

Is the Church the new Israel, or somehow now part of Israel, a "spiritual Israel", or not? This will likewise determine your view.

Did Paul reveal the church, a mysterion until that time, or not? This will determine which Scriptures you believe speak concerning the rapture.

Does God use different dispensations of His grace or not? Dispensing to the needs of the household, oikonomia, the law of the house, translated dispensation.

These questions, and the implications that arise from your answers, are more foundational to this question then whether "that day" is rapture day or judgment day, or questions like that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

First, Jesus explicitly establishes the chronology in Matthew 24:29-37. In verse 29, He says: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

Presupposing that the church and Israel are blended together, but this does not allow a literal fulfillment of the sheep goats judgment, which is a narrative prophecy EXACTLY the same as is the prophecy of Jesus' return. Do you believe the one but not the other? If so, that's a problem.

Dispensationalism provides the only answer.

Much love!

 

[rebuilder 454]

It makes me wonder what the post tribbers think normal is.

This "normal" that the post tribbers present certainly isn't what jesus speaks of when He mentioned the social economical condition that will be related to the days of non or Lot.

They are trying to paint a picture of "trib vs wrath", then inserting strict made up definitions of both.
Trib =from the devil
Wrath= from God.
And yes they are partially right.
But it GOES BEYOND THEIR MADE UP WORLD.
They insist the trib is a cake walk.
A speed bump.
No big deal.

But no, The 4 horsemen are RELEASED BY JESUS.
The power given the AC BY HEAVEN is RELEASED BY JESUS IN THE 4 HORSEMEN.
Ahem, to slaughter millions of believers.

End times must be viewed in a panorama FIRST.
Then the heart of heaven.
( which is the bride and groom united)
Plus the very end of the throne of David established and Jesus occupying that throne


What kicks off the trib is TOTALLY MISSING from postrib doctrine.
That something is ... cue drumroll....the times of the Gentiles completed.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Note the multifaceted dynamics in a actual honest study.
Harvest dynamics BY JESUS incorporated in the church and jewish gathering.
Postribbers have NO CLUE as to any of it.

The church is the grain harvest.
The jews are the fruit harvest.
Again, this is nowhere in their workbooks.

Imagine that.
They know nothing of ANY OF THAT.
ZERO.
They remind me of a dictator keeping his minions ignorant so as to control in evil.

Why would anyone actually WANT to be a follower of ignorant teachers???

We own end times with 5 times the study, that stumps them unto cunning rabbit trails.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Presupposing that the church and Israel are blended together, but this does not allow a literal fulfillment of the sheep goats judgment, which is a narrative prophecy EXACTLY the same as is the prophecy of Jesus' return. Do you believe the one but not the other? If so, that's a problem.

Dispensationalism provides the only answer.

Much love!

A postriber has an ugly job of casting down Gods word.
It is appalling

 

[marks]

A postriber has an ugly job of casting down Gods word.
It is appalling

I just feel like all these debates are just nibbling around the edges of the topic without every really getting to the meat of it.

Dispensations is a great example. If you cannot see a dispensational change at the end of the times of the Gentiles, the beginning of the 70th week, then you will never ever ever agree with someone on rapture timing who does see that.

If you believe the sheep goats judgment will happen exactly as written you will never never never agree with someone on rapture timing who holds that this prophecy is a parable for good living, or a retelling of the great white throne judgment, though they are completely different.

If we will agree on these things, the rapture timing falls right into place.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It makes me wonder what the post tribbers think normal is.

This "normal" that the post tribbers present certainly isn't what jesus speaks of when He mentioned the social economical condition that will be related to the days of non or Lot.

How exactly do you interpret the following passage....

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

If people are saying "peace and safety" just before being destroyed, wouldn't you agree that people are acting as if things are normal while they are saying "peace and safety"? Do you believe when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night that the rapture will occur at that point? In Matthew 24:35-39 He talked about the coming of the Son of Man occurring at the end of the time that He compared to the days of Noah before the flood and He indicated that it would be unexpected (no one knows the day or hour). Do you believe that Matthew 24:35-39 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 are speaking of the same event?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you believe the sheep goats judgment will happen exactly as written you will never never never agree with someone on rapture timing who holds that this prophecy is a parable for good living, or a retelling of the great white throne judgment, though they are completely different.

How are you coming to this conclusion that Matthew 25:31-46 can't be the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15? Do you think the following verses are referring to completely different events?

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I just feel like all these debates are just nibbling around the edges of the topic without every really getting to the meat of it.

Pre-tribs on this forum don't seem interested in getting to the meat of the topic. They do not answer most of the questions or address most of the points that post-tribs make. I would love to discuss passages like Matthew 24:29-51, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Luke 17:26-37 in depth with you to show how those refute both pre-trib and premil. Are you interested?