Stop Believing the "Any Moment" Myth

[shepherdsword]

Anything but pretrib would have Jesus confused, as it was HE THAT TAUGHT a pretrib rapture and even used the last supper dialoge to point to the future, gathering in heaven...pssst, remember postribber doctrine says only one post wrath coming, and NO BELIEVER EVER goes to heaven.
Not to mention the 2 escape verses BY JESUS...No matter how you twist it, Jesus was not confused.

Whew, what a convoluted theory postribbers cling to..

Jesus never taught a pre0trib rapture. Post his teaching if you can. Let's see some scripture. What he taught was that he would return AFTER the tribulation.

Mt 24:29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes. Basically, being on Satan’s side in your work and thoughts.

The Greek uses OR though, not and. Seems odd that the mark will be on the forehead OR the right hand if those things are thoughts and deeds.

 

[marks]

Jesus never taught a pre0trib rapture. Post his teaching if you can.

Jesus never taught on the rapture at all, as I see it. The church was a musterion revealed through Paul, not Jesus.

The church caught up to Jesus, and the regathering of Israel back to their land are fully separate events.

Much love!

 

[CrowCross]

Yes. Basically, being on Satan’s side in your work and thoughts.

It's more than that.

I tried to show you.

 

[Sel@h]

The Greek uses OR though, not and. Seems odd that the mark will be on the forehead OR the right hand if those things are thoughts and deeds.

Isn’t it both? …because those who are deceived and therefore believe the lies that are spewing forth like a flood out of Satan’s mouth (“forehead”) will end up doing his work (“hands”).

The “forehead” and “hands” are metaphors.

 

[Sel@h]

As well as literal descriptions.

Is Rev 8 symbolic?

Some of it is, some of it is not.

….just my opinion.

 

[William Barton]

that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This implies that the temple is rebuilt before the return of Jesus. Likewise, the Bible says: "The Lord will come suddenly to his temple." (Malachi 3:1)

No temple, no return.

The Jews have been training priests, breeding red heifers, and collecting the various things necessary to rebuild their temple.

 

[ewq1938]

Isn’t it both?

Not according to the Greek used.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

G2228
ἤ
ē
Thayer Definition:
1) either, or, than
Part of Speech: particle
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms

…because those who are deceived and therefore believe the lies that are spewing forth like a flood out of Satan’s mouth (“forehead”) will end up doing his work (“hands”).

The “forehead” and “hands” are metaphors.

It's a common thing people say but how would that assure people not marked couldn't buy or sell? The other word used is EPI, which means on or upon never does it mean "in".

So, the mark is ON the forehead OR the right hand.

 

[KUWN]

I don’t see the word “departure.” Wow!

That is because you are not reading the Greek NT.

 

[Davy]

That is because you are not reading the Greek NT.

You just made up a lie.

There is NO Greek word for 'departure' in the 2 Thessalonians 2:3 verse...

2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV

Some among the false Pre-trib Rapture crowd like to replace that above "falling away" phrase with the idea of a 'departure' of the Church, like a rapture to Christ prior to the trib. There is no such Greek term pointing to the idea of a rapture departure in that verse.

The Greek word that is there, and for that KJV word "away" since the word "falling" was added by the KJV translators, is the Greek word apostasia which is where our English word apostasy comes from.


NT:646
apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:
KJV - falling away, forsake.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Apostle Paul gives examples of an apostate... who falls away from the Faith and thus the Truth...

1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

 

[CrowCross]

Some of it is, some of it is not.

….just my opinion.

There is nothing wrong with an opinion.

 

[PinSeeker]

This will fall on a lot of deaf ears, but a word to the wise... thus saith the Lord:

"You save a humble people, but Your eyes are on the haughty to bring them down" (2 Samuel 22:28).

"For You save a humble people, but the haughty eyes You bring down" (Psalm 18:27).​

"'...do not lift up your horn on high, or speak with haughty neck’” (Psalm 75:5).​

"Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure" (Psalm 101:5)..​

"For though the Lord is high, He regards the lowly, but the haughty He knows from afar" (Psalm 138:6).​

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18).​

"Before destruction a man’s heart is haughty, but humility comes before honor" (Proverbs 18:12).​

"Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin" (Proverbs 21:4).​

“'Scoffer' is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride" (Proverbs 21:24). Couple that with "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers... The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1).​

"The haughty looks of man shall be brought low, and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled, and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day..." (Isaiah 2:11)​

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven... Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth... Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy... Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God... Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God..." (Jesus, Matthew 5).​

​

"...from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts... slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person" (Jesus, Mark 7).​

​

"Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends... For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away... Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love" (Paul, 1 Corinthians 13).​

​

"...see that you excel in this act of grace also. I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you by His poverty might become rich..." (Paul, 2 Corinthians 8).​

​

"The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion..." (Paul, 1 Timothy 1).​

​

"...the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (Paul, 2 Timothy 4).​

​

"What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? ...you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil" (James, James 4).​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Unless the Bible actually gives this information, your interpretation lacks Scriptural authority. A mark on the hand or forehead is a mark on the hand or forehead unless the Bible says differently. Claiming "the book has lots of symbols" has no bearing on this. Either the Bible teaches this or it does not.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in Scripture that modifies these passages to refer to anything other than an actual mark on the hand or forehead, just like in the Thief in the Night movies.

Much love!

Really? Is this how you read the mark as literal narrative? Perhaps you will need to explain if the beasts will be literal and coming out of the sea and earth literally? Good luck.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The book of Revelation uses a lot of metaphors and symbolism.

Then buying and selling would need to be metaphors , as well as mark, forehead, and hand.

I am sticking with what it says.

 

[Sel@h]

Then buying and selling would need to be metaphors , as well as mark, forehead, and hand.

I am sticking with what it says.

me too

 

[Davy]

Not according to the Greek used.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

G2228
ἤ
ē
Thayer Definition:
1) either, or, than
Part of Speech: particle
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms

It's a common thing people say but how would that assure people not marked couldnm't buy or sell? The other word used is EPI, which means on or upon never does it mean "in".

So, the mark is ON the forehead OR the right hand.

So then, you believe that the 'mark' God put upon Cain was a literal outward... mark that everyone could see?

In reality what @Sel@h is pointing to is the spiritual idea behind the mark of the beast. Ask yourself, who would be willing to take the literal mark for buying and selling? The deceived and/or those who will wrongly trust in that "another beast" who comes first prior to Lord Jesus' coming.

The mark God put upon Cain was like that also, as God gave Cain certain attributes that made him wiser than the children of light, along with Cain's and his offspring's attributes of murder, building of cities, lack of the ability to farm, etc.

 

[KUWN]

There is nothing wrong with an opinion.

I don't recall reading where Jesus gave his opinion. In fact, he did not speak like the Scribes and Pharisees but as one having authority.

 

[CrowCross]

Then buying and selling would need to be metaphors , as well as mark, forehead, and hand.

I am sticking with what it says.

Great point.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't recall reading where Jesus gave his opinion. In fact, he did not speak like the Scribes and Pharisees but as one having authority.

What is your point?

In fact you just presented an opinion.

 

[Dave Watchman]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul warns Christians not to be misled, explaining that the day of Christ's return will not occur until there is first a great falling away and the "man of sin" is revealed. While the teaching of Jesus returning to gather His people is easy to understand, the distinct warning to "let no man deceive you" is often the most difficult part for people to grasp.

Paul's primary point is a plea for believers not to believe anyone who claims that the day of Christ is imminent or that He could return at any moment. Those who believe this risk being caught unprepared when the true Messiah returns. Remember, there will be a false messiah who will come first. We mustn’t be deceived because if we’re not careful, we’ll end up worshiping the Antichrist. (This is the great apostasy of the end times.)

Do you still find the pre-tribulation rapture theory appealing? If so, you are in a very dangerous position. This warning doesn't come from me; it comes from Paul, who cautions us to be on guard and watching out for the Antichrist. The Antichrist—Satan—will mirror exactly what you expect from Christ, using supernatural powers to deceive people, and he will arrive before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a nice try, congratulations, and welcome to the forum, but I don't think you can use this to disprove the pre-tribulation Rapture theory. I still say it's happening now, we don't need a rebuilt temple to find the Man of Sin. And we don't need to go through a time of wrath, the great winepress. Paul's primary point here is not "a plea for believers not to believe anyone who claims that the day of Christ is imminent or that He could return at any moment, the primary point at that time was to tell Ancient Israel in those days that the Day of the Lord had not yet come. I also would not say we "are in a very dangerous position if we believe Pre Trib. Paul wasn't warning Christians at the end of time, he was warning people in the 1st century not to believe "letters" that had been written claiming that the Day of the Lord had come already.

Some during those days thought people were saying it came already, and they missed the boat. Paul was reassuring them not to worry, they won't miss it, the dead in Christ will rise first. We can't use 2 Thessalonians to pin down the detail of the timing for the Rapture in our time. Paul is using broad brush strokes which could be applicable from the 1950's to now. Like the Leave it to Beaver times, to the transvestite Sodomite sex change days we are in now. The falling away happened already, we wait now for the Man of Sin to be revealed. He has been here for many a long year, he just needs to be outed. I like the sharpie marker I get from Daniel and Revelation.

The Falling Away, The Apostasy.

The first time, the only other time the NT used that controversial word was by Luke, a travelling companion of Paul. Luke was talking about falling away from the Torah, the falling away from Moses. Which really was falling away from what God said to do.

Acts 21:21: The Old Time Jews confront Paul with a report that he has been teaching Jewish believers living among the Gentiles to perform an apostasia ("an apostasy" or "forsaking") from Moses—specifically telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to Jewish customs.

Paul was usually drawing from some other place in the Bible. The "man" of sin was Isaiah 14's "man", is this the "man" that made the nations tremble? Paul's "man" was the little horn from Daniel 8 that rises up to the place of HIS Sanctuary. Because that's where he took his seat, in the place of the real Sanctuary, the True Tent, the place of His Sanctuary or Matthew 23's "chair" of Moses. Paul was just drawing from Isaiah 14, Daniel 8 and Matthew 23.

The Chair of Moses

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God​

"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,​

"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,​

He will "seat himself".

In Matthew 23, Jesus said:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat​

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"​

They have "seated themselves".

Paul was an Old Time Jew Pharisee before Jesus knocked him down and blinded him on his way to Damascus. So as soon as Jesus said: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses", Paul knew exactly what was being talked about. Moses had a literal chair in the temple he sat in and read the Torah to the Children of Israel. Moses sat in that seat and told people what God said for them to do.

At the end of time, just before Christ comes, another man, the Man of sin, will also figuratively take that same seat of Divine Authority and tell people what they can legally do, which previously had been only in God's Domain.

The important thing to note here is that the Pharisees "seated themselves". Nobody told them to sit in that seat, they TOOK it. They just came in and took the seat and assumed to dictate God's Word without it being authorized. Same as the Man of Sin in our end times. If the Old Time Jews would have recognized Jesus, they should have surrendered that seat to it's rightful Owner, but that's another story. We're trying not to miss the time of OUR Visitation.

So Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. Moses WAS appointed by God, the "seat" was his. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over Moses' job or his "seat", figuratively, which was Moses' place of authority in the Temple of God.

Both the Pre Tribulation Rapture People, and the Post Tribulation Rapture People can both be correct today, because there's different kinds of tribulation, personal and corporate level tribulation. I think a bunch of the things have been happening, and are happening now.

The Man of Sin is here, he has taken his seat of authority, and has been dividing the land, dividing the earth for a price, for a profit. It could just be about that time for the news from the east, and from the north to trouble him. He's king of the north. So it's news happening now from his home base that is troubling him, so he goes out with great fury next to destroy many, and devote many to destruction. Trouble from the east and trouble from the north. That could happen in a week or two. No need for rebuilt temples. We might be much closer than we think. I wouldn't be banking on the Old Hal Lindsey narrative at this time.