Once saved always saved

[FaithWillDo]

Can you not make choices? I assume you made a choice to respond to me, yes? <smile>


In what way, FWD? I think we're talking about sovereignty in much, much different senses. What you say here is not true at all. What do you think I think I'm sovereign over? I mean, myself, maybe, in a human sense. No, it really has nothing to do with sovereignty in the sense you are thinking of it. We agree that, in that sense, only God is sovereign; we are most certainly not. By saying men have free will, I am certainly not saying I am sovereign even remotely in the sense that God is.


<chuckles> We freely (and inevitably) choose Him... when we are given a new spirit... even God's Holy Spirit... so when we are born again by the Spirit. Unless and until that point, we will not choose Him, but otherwise, and freely so.


All these things, FWD... I believe along the same lines as you. But it's really not a matter of whether the will is free or not, it is a matter of the state of the heart, at any given time the spirit of the person. If one is born again by the Spirit, then, because of this new spirit God puts into him/her (Ezekiel 11, 36), his or her will then becomes to do the will of God. Unless and until that point, his or her will is to do the will of his or her father the devil (John 6, 8, and 10, especially 8:44).


To this, though, I would say that, similar to what I said above, unless and until one is given this new spirit by God, He or she will always reject Christ. So it's not that he or she does not have free will, but rather that he or she will never use it to choose God. This is the natural state of the heart, the natural spirit we have from birth, the natural human condition, and this is the result of Adam's fall in Genesis 3. He fell into a state of death, and, as Paul says in Romans 5:12, "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men..." It is the heart, the spirit of the person, that always drives the will. If the heart is changed ~ made to be of God, by God, by the work of His Spirit ~ then the will changes also ~ to do the will of God. So yes, who then can be saved? WIth man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible, as Jesus says to his disciples (and us by extension) in Luke 18:27.

So again, it's not about the will and whether it is free or not, it is about the state of the heart... whether one is a child of the devil or not ~ which we all are from birth, born sinful, just as David said of himself ~ or a child of God, which is only the case... again... when one is born again by the Spirit and thus of God. As John says in John 1:13, we are born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I'll say again that it seems you and I agree on these things you have said, here, FWD. But it's not because we don't have free will, or that we are sovereign over God.

Grace and peace to you.

Dear Pinseeker,
Making choices does not mean you have a free will. Computers make choices but no one would believe that they have a free will.

A free will ability is making uncaused choices.

Scripture clearly says that mankind can make choices but scripture also clearly says that those choices are caused by God.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Paul was asked about why does God still finds fault with mankind for our sins since it is God who causes us to sin in the first place. Paul ends with "for who has hath resisted His will?" Of course, the answer is no one has.

Paul then answers his own questions:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Paul was also asked about the fairness of some people being chosen as elect and some not being chosen:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

God does what He does within mankind for our ultimate benefit - to teach us right from wrong, good from evil. After evil has run its course, all mankind will experience the goodness of God for all eternity.

Here are a few other verses that support what Paul said in Romans 9:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Mankind can make choices but mankind cannot make free will choices. Only God the Father has a free will ability. Everyone else's "will" is subordinate to His "will".

You said:
So again, it's not about the will and whether it is free or not, it is about the state of the heart... whether one is a child of the devil or not ~ which we all are from birth, born sinful, just as David said of himself ~ or a child of God, which is only the case... again... when one is born again by the Spirit and thus of God. As John says in John 1:13, we are born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

From what you said above, it sounds like you don't believe in free will. But then you still seem to place some responsibility for salvation on the individual.

I assume you believe that you are saved so let me ask you this question: Why are you saved when (as you believe) others will never be saved? Are you different from them in some way - maybe you are smarter, wiser, or just less evil? Or maybe you were born in the right family or maybe you were just in the right place at the right time?

Or maybe you correctly believe that God chose to bless you with salvation to suit His own purposes. That He chose you from the foundation of the world for this blessing. Then, to accomplish the goal of your salvation, God did everything that was necessary to change your heart and mind so that they were made into the likeness of Christ's heart and mind.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The work of our salvation is what the verse below is also teaching:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

When (not if) God is ready to save a person, He will do everything that is necessary for their salvation. After He makes His spiritual changes within the person, they will willingly (not forced) accept Jesus as their Lord and will be ready to die if necessary (just as Christ was ready) rather than to disobey their Father in heaven - and this will not be because they fear Him, it will be because they love and trust Him in all things.

Consider what Christ told the Jews who were about to crucify Him:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

For Christ, it was never about whether or not He was going to save the chief priests and scribes, it was only about "when" it would happen.

This is when:

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out (Lake of Fire) until you have paid the last penny.”

The "last penny" is the full and complete spiritual destruction of the child of the devil.

Joe

 

[Dryhn]

Dear Dryhn,
Water is the spirit word that represents the Holy Spirit. The Rain is the spirit word used for when the Holy Spirit is given to a person. The Early and Latter Rain concept is used in the farming analogy. However, Paul doesn't use this analogy very much.

Here are a couple of places that I found where he did:

Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven (Early & Latter Rain), and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food (truth) and gladness.

Heb 6:7 For the earth (mankind) which drinketh in the rain (Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it (many are called), and bringeth forth herbs (babes in Christ) meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Below is a supporting verse from the OT:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Paul also used the marriage analogy. In that analogy, a "virgin" is the same as a "babe" who has received a small measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain). The virgin waits for the Bridegroom to return for the marriage (Latter Rain & conversion). In his letter to the Corinthian church, Paul is working with his virgins to keep them chaste (faithful) while they wait for the Bridegroom to return. After Paul's departing though, all the virgins in the church committed spiritual fornication with Satan and fell from grace. Spiritual fornication is the sin that leads to death. It is the sin of mixing works with faith.

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James uses the farming analogy in chapter 5. The time between the Early and Latter Rains was typed by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. It is during this time that a babe will fall away and spiritually die. The Latter Rain will restore the babe and cause them to produce their fruit (salvation).

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain (Latter Rain), and the earth brought forth her fruit (spiritual fruit). 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Here are a few verses from the OT:

Psa 72:6 He shall come down like RAIN (Latter Rain) upon the mown grass (a fallen believer): as showers (Latter Rain) that water the earth.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in a fallen away state).

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead (mind of the Great Harlot), thou refusedst to be ashamed.

1Kin 8:36 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way (the straight way of faith) wherein they should walk, and give RAIN (Latter Rain) upon thy land (the elect), which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance (life during the ages).

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

There are many, many analogies used in scripture that teach the pathway to salvation. The farming and marriage analogies are two of them.

Below is a place where Paul uses the Early and Latter Rain "concept" but does not mention "rain". Paul is speaking to the babes in the Corinthian church:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (they had received the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain & conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (judgment portion of conversion).

The "end" is the "end of the ages" and is when an elect person is converted:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Note: The end-time prophecies by Christ are teaching about the spiritual events that lead an elect person to their moment of conversion. They are not teaching about one-time outward world events that happen at the literal end of the age as most believe.

Joe

Thanx Joe
"Latter Rain" prophetic, post rapture, applicable to those in an 'age' to come.

Current age is the "mystery"

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

 

[WHO ME]

NO, GOD does NOT pre-destine who will be saved.
He KNOWS but does not in advance pick who will be saved

I never said God predestines who will be saved (number 1)
I said he predestines those He knows will accept Him as savior (number 2)

Theres a difference...

1. He just predestiness who to save

2. He predestines who will accepts Him...


Completely different things...

Romans 8:29 says He predestines those whom He foreknows -

He knows beforehand who will accept Him as savior and those people He predestines..

He does not just predestine or pick in advance (as you say above) who will be saved.... this is what you accuse me of saying which I did not say.....


BIG DIFFERENCE.... learn the difference

Again one God decides who will be saved (I dont agree with it)

The other God lets the person thru free will decide and He predestines that person

Predestines thru His foreknowledge..
As romans 8:29 says....


John macarther teaches the first one, that God decides who will be saved.. I disagree.
You then say:


Dryhn-
NO, GOD does NOT pre-destine who will be saved.

Which I never said...... slow down a bit

 

[WHO ME]

Jesus THROUGH His Apostles taught people how to be saved
In Gal 2:7-9
Who are you ?
Who is the Apostle chosen to teach you ?

Easy questions :)

First you must find out about who you are believing in (Jesus) you find that information mostly from what Jesus himself said in matt mark luke john.... You have to know what it is your asked to believe....easy answer....


Paul may teach gentiles about being saved but you FIRST have to understand who Jesus is... what He says what He teaches and hearing those things you decide if you believe or not...... you seem to bypass this part and go straight to paul..... slow down..:)

 

[FaithWillDo]

Thanx Joe
"Latter Rain" prophetic, post rapture, applicable to those in an 'age' to come.

Current age is the "mystery"

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

Dear Dryhn,
The current age is not a "mystery". Also, the rapture is a false teaching and the Latter Rain has applied to all the elect since the Apostles received it on the Day of Pentecost.

The "mystery" is that Christ teaches His New Covenant truth "in a mystery". He does so by teaching His truth in another language (spiritual language) and in parables. Christ teaches in this way so that carnal mankind (includes babes/virgins) cannot understand and receive the truth of God.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you (the elect) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Notice the last part of 1Cor 2:7. Paul said that the wisdom of God is taught in a mystery unto the glory of the elect. Why? Because only the elect (after they are converted) can understand and receive the truth of God. This truth is a significant part of the blessings that the elect are freely given by Christ. Why? Because without the ability to know and receive the truth, the elect could not be able to walk in truth or worship God.

Psa 86:11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Scripture also restates this truth here:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted elect). 10 For concept must be upon concept, concept upon concept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) concept upon concept, concept upon concept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Christ speaks in "another language" for the purpose of concealing His truth from everyone but the converted elect. Even "babes in Christ" cannot understand & receive the truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings. This does not happen by accident. It was ordained from the foundation of the world for the benefit of the elect and for the purpose of causing the apostasy within the church (babes/called to be saints/virgins).

Christ even takes credit for the spirit of anti-Christ consuming the church:

2Thes 2:9 Even him (man of sin/apostate babe), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause GOD SHALL SEND THEM A STRONG DELUSION (the spirit of anti-Christ), THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE (the lie that Satan is Christ, 2Cor 11:14): 12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Since the death of Paul, the scripture above has applied to all babes in Christ - this even includes the elect babes. But since the days of the elect as a man of sin are shortened (Mat 24:22), Christ will return with the Latter Rain and convert them before they die. It is at this time that the man of sin (who they used to be) who had pleasure in unrighteousness perishes. But before that happens, the elect person will be made into a new creation; a child of God. This is how Christ converts the elect, and ultimately, all mankind. Christ destroys the original vessel and creates the new vessel:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The verse below is speaking about the judgment portion of conversion:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind).

This is also what this verse is teaching:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The "sword" is a spirit word that represents the Word of God/Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual message He is teaching in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who have been given the Early Rain of the Spirit and have been “called to be a saint”), will later perish by the Sword (death of the child of the devil). This death is a necessary component of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person a second time and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain), followed by the Baptism of Fire (judgment):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

The conversion process that Christ uses to save a person is a key part of the mystery of Christ.

Joe

 

[PinSeeker]

Dear Pinseeker,
Making choices does not mean you have a free will.

Dear FaithWillDo... <chuckles> ...thank you for your thoughts.

Computers make choices but no one would believe that they have a free will.

Oh my goodness. Computers are machines; they do not make choices. They are programmed to make comparisons according to a logic that is not their own... because they are not sentient beings... Surely you're not comparing people, whom God made in His image, to machines... I mean, AI is a thing, certainly, but that A stands for 'artificial'... Goodness gracious.

A free will ability is making uncaused choices.

Every choice we make is caused by something. Even if we choose to do something on a whim, something caused us to make it... something caused us to use our will in the way we did.

Scripture clearly says that mankind can make choices...

Yes it does, I agree. So you're really kind of shooting down your own argument here, FWD.

but scripture also clearly says that those choices are caused by God.

Not all choices. Does God cause you to choose a red car over a blue car? Or any other day-to-day choice you make?

Romans 9:15-19

Love this passage. You know, I refer to this passage often in conversations with those who think God's will, as far as who is saved (yes, only His elect) depends on our will, which is what this passage refutes, specifically verse 16... "it... (being one of God's elect) "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." The 'it' there refers to being one of God's elect. Paul is not saying anything about our will or of any incapability on our part to make choices according to our will, or that our will is not free. What he's saying is basically what I said in a previous post, that we will not make the choice to be His, but actually always freely choose otherwise... unless He has this mercy and compassion on us, so unless:

• "...He, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we are dead in our trespasses, makes us alive together with Christ⁠" (Ephesians 2:4-5)
• "According to His great mercy, He (causes) us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead..." (1 Peter 1:3)

And this is according to His will (Romans 9, Ephesians 1). And it fits perfectly with what John says in 1 John 4, that "we love because He first loved us."

Phil 2:13

Yeah, here again... love this verse. We do the willing and working, but because He is at work in us, in our hearts... because He has given us His Spirit. This is what causes us to make good choices, to choose to worship Him and glorify Him, and even to obey Him and walk according to His statutes. He doesn't do this for us, woodenly speaking, but changes our heart, our spirit ~ makes us of Him rather than of the devil ~ so that... yes... we then "will and work for His good pleasure."

Mankind can make choices but mankind cannot make free will choices.

Oh, so yeah, kind of like grass is green in the summer, but it is not really green, it's like purple or something. Hm. <smile> I mean you might as well say we really don't have brains and can't think. My goodness.

Okay, enough is enough. Grace and peace to you.

Only God the Father has a free will ability.

No, but only God is self-existing.

Everyone else's "will" is subordinate to His "will".

Regarding His salvation. Regarding His salvation. I would say it this way, that our choice regarding Him and His salvation is in the context of His gracious choice... again, "we love because He first loved us" (1 John 4). And this love is not just some warm fuzzy feeling. <smile> We could say, in like manner, "we choose Him because He first chose us (from before the foundation of the world)"... "we will according to His will because we want to of course but first because He made us His." So, as Paul says in Romans 9, those whom He has mercy and compassion on, which is according to His will (v.18), those who He makes for honorable use ~ those whom He calls, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles ~ as opposed to dishonorable use ~ vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (vv.21-24).

you still seem to place some responsibility for salvation on the individual.

Not the obtaining of salvation. If we were "responsible for salvation" in this way, we would owe ourselves at least some amount of praise and worship for our salvation, which is absolutely not the case. I'll draw from Paul again: "by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works" (Ephesians 2:8). Now, we do have great responsibility to act on it, to live according to it, "to present (our) bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is (our) spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1), because it has been given ~ by grace ~ to us.

...maybe you correctly believe that God chose to bless you with salvation to suit His own purposes. That He chose you from the foundation of the world for this blessing. Then, to accomplish the goal of your salvation, God did everything that was necessary to change your heart and mind so that they were made into the likeness of Christ's heart and mind.

Um, this is pretty much exactly what I've said, FaithWillDo. I have not been unclear. Wow.

Goodness gracious. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I never said God predestines who will be saved (number 1)
I said he predestines those He knows will accept Him as savior (number 2)

Theres a difference...

1. He just predestiness who to save

2. He predestines who will accepts Him...

Thanks for liking my previous post, WhoMe, but this is not quite right... <smile> God predistines some, not all, to be conformed to the image of His Son (Jesus, of course), and it is for this purpose that they... we... are saved. And to say He predestines those He knows will accept Jesus is to say that His will depends on our will, which is very much opposite what we read in Scripture, particularly the following:
Our being one of His elect ~ His elect, those He chooses/elects _ depends not on human will or exertion but on God and His mercy and compassion (His grace) which He gives to whom He will give it (Romans 9).

Romans 8:29 says He predestines those whom He foreknows - He knows beforehand who will accept Him as savior and those people He predestines..

Ah yes... "those He foreknew..." In the sense that you're talking about His foreknowing, WhoMe, in the sense of just knowing cognitively beforehand, God foreknows everything, and everyone. But in saying "those He foreknew," Paul is referring to a limited group of people, not all people... he's saying God foreknew some people but not others. So this foreknowing cannot be a mere cognitive knowing beforehand, but rather much more than that...

He does not just predestine or pick in advance (as you say above) who will be saved....

This same Paul does say in Ephesians 1 that He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world... <smile>

BIG DIFFERENCE.... learn the difference

Yes, it is a big difference, and I say you should... well, learn the difference. <smile>

Again one God decides who will be saved (I dont agree with it)

Ah, so God is not really the potter and we the clay, and does not have the right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use... You're disagreement is with Paul, really, and since all Scripture is God-breathed, really with God Himself...

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

 

[rwb]

Thats right both free will and predestined work together... God forknows who will accept him and he predestines those people

God foreknows who will believe and they are those whom He predestined to eternal life. We know this because the names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. The Bible shows us that some names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Lu 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Daniel 12:1 (KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[WHO ME]

Thanks for liking my previous post, WhoMe, but this is not quite right... <smile> God predistines some, not all, to be conformed to the image of His Son (Jesus, of course), and it is for this purpose that they... we... are saved. And to say He predestines those He knows will accept Jesus is to say that His will depends on our will, which is very much opposite what we read in Scripture, particularly the following:
Our being one of His elect ~ His elect, those He chooses/elects _ depends not on human will or exertion but on God and His mercy and compassion (His grace) which He gives to whom He will give it (Romans 9).


Ah yes... "those He foreknew..." In the sense that you're talking about His foreknowing, WhoMe, in the sense of just knowing cognitively beforehand, God foreknows everything, and everyone. But in saying "those He foreknew," Paul is referring to a limited group of people, not all people... he's saying God foreknew some people but not others. So this foreknowing cannot be a mere cognitive knowing beforehand, but rather much more than that...


This same Paul does say in Ephesians 1 that He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world... <smile>


Yes, it is a big difference, and I say you should... well, learn the difference. <smile>


Ah, so God is not really the potter and we the clay, and does not have the right over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use... You're disagreement is with Paul, really, and since all Scripture is God-breathed, really with God Himself...

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

In your romans 9 part... which verses are you using for who he predestine for salvation?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear FaithWillDo... <chuckles> ...thank you for your thoughts.

Dear

Dear FaithWillDo... <chuckles> ...thank you for your thoughts.

Dear Pinseeker,
Yes, you have been unclear. After reading your post, you are definitely mixing man's works with the works of Christ that He does under the New Covenant. You just can't see it.

You seem to be arguing for "limited" free will which makes no sense at all. Something can't be free if it is limited.

Also, you did not answer my question.

Why are you saved and why are others not going to be saved?

If you believe that salvation is solely the responsibility of Christ and that He has the ability to do it, why do you believe that He won't save all mankind? What is stopping Him?

The only answers that can be are: Each person must contribute something to be saved and since they won't contribute it, they won't be saved. OR... Christ does not want to save all mankind so He won't do it.

Here is the truth about salvation:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Do you believe the scripture above?

Joe