Dear CrowCross,
The "creation of all things" is only referring to this creation that began in Gen 1:1. And since scripture states that Christ is the Creator, this necessitates that Christ was born as the Son of God prior to this creation in eternity past. It was God the Father's decision to bless His Son (Jesus) with being the God & Creator of this present world. It is in this way that Jesus is the Creator of all things.
That is all that scripture states - and as Paul says, we are not to go beyond what is written:
1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
You said:
You appear to be like the mormons who also claim Jesus was born.
You kinda screw with the meaning of "firstborn"....Col 1:15 “And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation....using your misunderstand of the passage to justify Jesus not being the creator of all as Col 1:16 speaks of.
I haven't even addressed Col 1:15 and you make assumptions about what I would say about it???
Here is the verse:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The term "first born" is not referring to
birth order, it is referring to Christ's preeminence over this creation.
This verse is related to this verse:
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
And this verse is understood this way:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
All things about this creation are about Christ. Christ is the Creator and He is preeminent in all things about it. Paul goes into great detail about Christ's preeminence in the next several verses that follow verse 15. In verse 18, Paul even uses the term "first born" a second time, but here it is used to show His preeminence over the church.
Col 1:15 is not a supporting verse that shows that Christ is the Son of God the Father - and that is why I don't use it as such. However, the verses below do teach that Jesus is the Son of God the Father and that is why I use them:
2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
It is always amazing to me when a person will try to argue that
a son can exist without ever having been born and that
the son has existed as long a time as their father has existed. This makes no sense and is contrary to the order of things that God has established. The person will then go onto argue that a son is of equal authority with their father when scripture clearly contradicts this understanding.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God (God the Father), and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
This scripture sums up the truth about Jesus and God the Father:
1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
God the Father is the one supreme God "of whom are all things". The verse then continues and identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the one "by whom are all things". In other words, the one supreme God (God the Father) uses the Lord Jesus Christ to do the work of creation. For that reason, scripture calls Jesus the Creator.
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
In the verses that I have presented above, notice that there is
no mention of the Holy Spirit that you claim to be God and an equal member of the trinity. The reason the Holy Spirit is not mentioned is because the Holy Spirit is not God. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit that He shares with Christ so that Christ is fully made in His likeness and image. It is in this way that God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are "one". And after Jesus Christ shares the Holy Spirit with mankind - mankind will become sons of God and will likewise be "one" with Jesus Christ and His Father.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes Christ, and eventually all mankind, the children of God the Father and "one" with Him.
If you can't "see" that the Trinity Doctrine is just another false teaching of the apostate church after all that I have presented, I can't see any reason to continue our discussion. It's just not your time yet.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Joe