Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[A Watchman]

Yes, it does mean that and Peter indicated the same in 2 Peter 3:6-7. When Jesus returns, He will destroy all unbelievers by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12). Paul described that as "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3).

That doesn't mean they are all destroyed in one day, we know this because the fifth trumpet's locusts torment people for 5 months and they will wish for death and can't die.

Revelation 9:3-6 – "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

In the end justice will be served, but it will be over time. The sudden destruction arrives suddenly, but does not completely destroy all things when it suddenly comes. The first trumpets only destroy 1/3 of the trees, all green grass, 1/3 of the sea creatures and ships, 1/3 of the waters that kill many, but not all. These things take place over time.

The woman is protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days. That happens at the sixth seal when she is saved out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea by Yeshua's return. This is about 30 days after the start of the Beast's 42 month reign, so there are about 41 months left before Armageddon in which the wrath of God will be carried out leading up to it.

So the destruction is sudden, but sudden does not mean complete and total at that sudden time. It just means the beginning of the fulfillment of the wicked being destroyed in the wrath of God will begin suddenly and unexpectedly for those not watching.

 

[A Watchman]

It isn't necessary to be removed from the earth in order to be kept/protected from the hour of temptation. Read John 17:15. You are contradicting what Jesus prayed about by thinking we will be removed from the earth in order to avoid trouble. The only point at which we will need to be removed from the earth is when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" by fire upon the earth from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12). Believers will escape by way of being changed to put on bodily immortality and being caught up to Christ "in the air" when He comes. There is no basis at all for thinking we will be removed from the earth any time before the day Jesus returns.

John 17:15 – "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

I'm not contradicting John 17:15 unless you think that is all-encompassing for all time. What was the context of that prayer? This is 30 AD and Yeshua is praying for the disciples and all who are His that through the trials of spreading the Gospel in the world that they would not be removed, because then the Gospel would fail to be spread. He's praying that because they are in the world but not of the world that the Spirit of God would keep them from the evil one.

There is a time when we will not be kept from the evil one in this world because we will be taken out of this world at His coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 – "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,"

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 – "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Yes, we are kept protected in this world until that time, not from persecution, but strengthened to resist the wiles of the Devil through that persecution and tribulation. Nobody is escaping tribulation, the church has been persecuted since its inception by the world. There are people being killed for their faith around the world right now. For those privileged enough to be able to sit in comfy houses typing on message boards, we would do well to remember these who probably have faith stronger than our own.

We agree that we will be removed, therefore you don't hold John 17:15 as an eternal statement as I do not as well. So I'm not sure why you would accuse me of contradicting Yeshua's prayer when you believe the same thing I do, that we will be removed from the world.

God's wrath is not the same as temptation. You are conflating God's wrath with Satan's wrath and deception. Nothing says we are not appointed to being tempted and to Satan's wrath. Believers have had to put on the armor of God to defend and fight against the devil's schemes for a long time already. Nowhere does it say that we'll ever be taken off of the earth to avoid that.

I didn't say God's wrath is temptation. The hour of temptation is the great tribulation. God's wrath on the Dragon's people is not the same as the Dragon's wrath on God's people.

I'm not pre-trib, I don't think Yeshua comes before the abomination of desolation and start of the great tribulation. I also accept the whole council of God and not just one verse or two here and there. Not everyone will experience a statement in scripture at the same time in absolute fashion. There is nuance in scripture if you dig, but so many are zealous to blindness.

When we are taken from the earth at His coming after the tribulation has begun, the great tribulation will be continuing on the earth. Therefore, those taken out of the earth will no longer be going through the wrath of the Dragon on God's people and will no longer be tempted to give up their eternal lives to save their mortal lives.

To be clear, they may have been going through that temptation at the start and remained faithful just like many around the world are doing right now, but they will be removed from that because of their faithfulness, patience, and obedience.

 

[A Watchman]

The bridegroom comes to meet us "in the air", not in heaven. That passage does not say that the marriage takes place in heaven.

The rest of the part you say is convoluted explains why I think the marriage takes place in heaven.

I can't comprehend anything you're saying here. You are turning something simple into something convoluted. Once the wife/bride is ready then Jesus will return with the souls of the dead in Christ and then they will be united with their resurrected, changed bodies and will be caught up along with those who are alive and remain to meet Christ in the air. At that point Jesus will destroy His enemies and the marriage will occur after that. Maybe after the judgment takes place first (Matthew 25:31-46).

Given the same scriptural backing from my previous post...

The virgins representing the church prior to marriage, virgin meaning marriageable woman, are called such when they are on the earth before the rapture.

In heaven, before returning with Yeshua at Armageddon, when the marriage of the Lamb is come and she has made herself ready, she is called wife, meaning betrothed woman. She then returns with Yeshua at Armageddon dressed in the same clothes she arrayed herself in at the marriage.

The part I didn't include, but may need to, is that Revelation 7:9 sees an innumerable multitude standing before the throne of God in heaven after the sixth seal and before the trumpets. This indicates the timeframe in which the rapture took place and places those caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" as not having remained floating there with Him, but have gone to the throne room in heaven where they stand before God.

So if the church before the rapture to heaven is an unwed woman and is later seen at the marriage prior to returning at Armageddon called a wed woman, then the marriage would have to have taken place in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That doesn't mean they are all destroyed in one day, we know this because the fifth trumpet's locusts torment people for 5 months and they will wish for death and can't die.

Revelation 9:3-6 – "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

What happens at the fifth trumpet is irrelevant to what we're talking about.

In the end justice will be served, but it will be over time. The sudden destruction arrives suddenly, but does not completely destroy all things when it suddenly comes.

Yes, it does. It will arrive unexpectedly as a thief in the night, but the word "sudden" describes the destruction itself. It will occur suddenly. Quickly. Not over a period of time as you are trying to claim.

Would you agree that the following passages refer to the same event?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

What we can glean from these two passages is that the "sudden destruction" that Paul said will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night will be in the form of fire that burns up the earth. The earth's surface, anyway. Why would that take a period of time rather than happening suddenly/quickly? Do you think it took a period of time for Sodom and Gomorrah to be burned up? I don't believe that's the case.

The first trumpets only destroy 1/3 of the trees, all green grass, 1/3 of the sea creatures and ships, 1/3 of the waters that kill many, but not all. These things take place over time.

The woman is protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days. That happens at the sixth seal when she is saved out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea by Yeshua's return. This is about 30 days after the start of the Beast's 42 month reign, so there are about 41 months left before Armageddon in which the wrath of God will be carried out leading up to it.

So the destruction is sudden, but sudden does not mean complete and total at that sudden time. It just means the beginning of the fulfillment of the wicked being destroyed in the wrath of God will begin suddenly and unexpectedly for those not watching.

That's just not what is indicated in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 17:15 – "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

I'm not contradicting John 17:15 unless you think that is all-encompassing for all time. What was the context of that prayer? This is 30 AD and Yeshua is praying for the disciples and all who are His that through the trials of spreading the Gospel in the world that they would not be removed, because then the Gospel would fail to be spread. He's praying that because they are in the world but not of the world that the Spirit of God would keep them from the evil one.

There is a time when we will not be kept from the evil one in this world because we will be taken out of this world at His coming.

Wrong. Scripture never teaches this. It says in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that we are not appointed to wrath. That's talking about God's wrath, as described earlier in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. It never says we are not appointed to Satan's wrath. Many Christians have been persecuted over the past almost 2,000 years, so there's no reason to think that we would ever be taken out of the world to avoid that. Scripture absolutely does not teach that anywhere. We will be taken off the earth to avoid God's final wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns in the form of fire coming down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

2 Thessalonians 2:1 – "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,"

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 – "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Yes, we are kept protected in this world until that time, not from persecution, but strengthened to resist the wiles of the Devil through that persecution and tribulation. Nobody is escaping tribulation, the church has been persecuted since its inception by the world. There are people being killed for their faith around the world right now. For those privileged enough to be able to sit in comfy houses typing on message boards, we would do well to remember these who probably have faith stronger than our own.

We agree that we will be removed, therefore you don't hold John 17:15 as an eternal statement as I do not as well. So I'm not sure why you would accuse me of contradicting Yeshua's prayer when you believe the same thing I do, that we will be removed from the world.

You believe we will be removed to avoid "the hour of temptation". To avoid Satan's wrath. That's not what scripture teaches, as I've shown.

I didn't say God's wrath is temptation. The hour of temptation is the great tribulation. God's wrath on the Dragon's people is not the same as the Dragon's wrath on God's people.

Why would you think we would be removed from the earth to avoid the hour of temptation when we would only need to be removed when God's wrath is coming down upon the entire earth?

 

[ewq1938]

The third woe is Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short.

That is not the 3rd woe trumpet. That is found in Rev 11, not Rev 12.

You say the third woe is in Revelation 11. Then, according to you, what is it ? Copy and paste the verse of what is the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Douggg]

That is not the 3rd woe trumpet. That is found in Rev 11, not Rev 12.






Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

You are claiming God's wrath is the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

So what woe (number) is Satan being cast down to earth having great wrath, knowing his time is short in Revelation 12:12 ?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[ewq1938]

The one taken is taken by those who worship the antichrist.

The one taken is killed by those who worship the antichrist.

The one taken and one left happens at the second coming, not the trib. Christ does the taking and leaving so the one taken represents the raptured saints, and those left are left on the Earth for the wrath of God.

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In the passage Christ gives many examples of what his return will be like. THEN means "at that time" referring to the coming of Christ.

Happens first ..................................................................Happens last

Good-Noah and family............................................................Bad-the rest/drowned
Good-Lot and his family......(Luke 17)...............................Bad-those left in the city
Good-the one taken/accepted...........................................Bad-the one left/rejected
Good-the goodman..................................................................Bad-the thief
Good-the wise servant..........................................................Bad-the evil servant
Good-the wise virgins...........................................................Bad-the foolish virgins
Good-servants that increased the talents..................Bad-the servant that did not have an increase
Good-the sheep.........................................................................Bad-the goats

The saved people............................................................The punished people



In these verses Christ will give multiple examples to teach the same exact thing. There is always a good one on one side and a bad one on the other. The good one is always shown in some type of action FIRST, and the bad one is always LAST.



All on the left side represent the same group of people that are good, wise, profitable, accepted etc.
All on the right side represent the same group of people that are bad, foolish, unprofitable, rejected etc.

 

[ewq1938]

You are claiming God's wrath is the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

Thge 3rd woe trump/7th trump and it's not my claim but from the bible, Rev 11.

So what woe (number) is Satan being cast down to earth having great wrath, knowing his time is short in Revelation 12:12 ?

The word "woe" does not equal a woe trump. Rev 12:12 is before the trib which is the 2nd woe trump so at the very best that verse is the first woe trump but IMO satan is cast out in the 3rd trump which is not a woe trump.

 

[A Watchman]

Your strawman is not knowing what you are talking about.

Postribbers HAVE INDEED INSISTED that the ones taken in mat 24 are wicked people taken to die.
That is 100% truth that you can not seem to process.
I do not need a 'strawman" as you erroneously invented.

QUOTE
"Um, nope. There is no pre-trib rapture and the sixth seal and coming of the Lord is after the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week, so it would be 3.5 years, not 7. But again I don't believe anything near what you're saying. The resulting conclusion from those taken to be killed is that those rejecting the false messiah are being killed for that rejection in the time after the abomination of desolation and prior to the sixth seal when the Lord returns in the midst of the 70th week."

Straw man: An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.

I'm not posttrib and I agree it's a weak position scripturally. I don't agree with post-trib that states the Lord comes only at Armageddon, which is what "posttrib" means by definition. That's not me and I've repeatedly stated such.

So if you continue to say that I am despite what I actually say so that you can use your arguments against posttrib to discredit what I'm saying, what would you call that?

If you are taking a singular point that you tie to posttrib and then applying the whole of posttrib ideology to me, then you have extended the meaning of posttrib beyond the idea that the rapture occurs after the tribulation is over to include other beliefs that do not belong under the definition of posttrib, even if some of those arguments may be used at times by posttribbers.

If you are not labeling me as posttrib, then I misunderstood what you wrote and I deeply apologize for misrepresenting your point in my response.

Your model, as you have invented, does not have the correct setting.

Your model is 180 degrees off, and opposite Jesus words.
PLUS , Daniel placed the reign of the AC as 7 yesrs. Not your inventer 3.5 years.
In Daniel it says, HALFWAY THROUGH the 7 years, is the AOD.

The seventh head of Revelation 17 has two kings, the seventh and eighth. I agree completely that the seventh head is a reign of 7 years, that's what the 70th week of Daniel points to.

I believe that the little horn is the false messiah who comes in Yeshua's name, or authority, saying he is the Christ, Messiah. He does this in the first half of the week by presenting himself as the conquering king that Israel desired back in the first century. He seems to fulfill the prophecies, turning the hearts of the people back to God, building the temple, defeating their enemies, etc. Daniel 11:36-44 speaks to this time of war in addition to Revelation 6:1-8. But then the king is killed in Jerusalem, Daniel 11:45, Revelation 13:3-5; 17:8-11, and the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea begins. Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:15-28, Mark 13:14-20

But the context of this discussion was pictures of Christ's 2 returns. Neither of those events happen in the first half of the week so it was not contextually relevant. So I agree that the reign of the seventh head will be seven years, but split between a time of deception in the first 3.5 leading to the revealing at the abomination of desolation and the eighth king declaring himself to be God and starting the great tribulation.

You made up that 3.5 year deal to answer your doctrinal inconsistencies.

None of your talking points addresses the setting of the rapture in matt 24 of "one taken"

You have no idea what Jesus is teaching in mat 24, and misconstrue what I am saying.

I believe scripture places the rapture of the church in the midst of the week, about 30 days after the abomination of desolation begins. This is partially because the woman protected is in the wilderness for 1,260 days, or 3.5 times/years. That means her protection began in the midst of the week.

This is also the time Yeshua comes to catch up His bride and then tread the winepress of the wrath of God in the earth. This all happens in the middle of the 7 years.

You said, "if you play your doctrine out, you have a wicked person pretrib rapture, and those wicked people taken to 7 years in the future, to Armageddon."

My 3.5 years was in response to your claim that I believe a wicked person taken in a pre-trib rapture are taken 7 years into the future.

I don't believe in pre-trib either, so if I actually believed that the one taken was the rapture and the wicked were being raptured, it would be 3.5 years into the future since the rapture happens in the midst of the week, not the beginning of it.

But in truth I don't believe the one taken is wicked. I believe the one taken is refusing to worship the false messiah.

I also don't believe the one taken is the rapture. I believe the one taken is the murder of those who refuse to worship the false messiah.

Everything you keep saying that I'm saying is nothing like what I'm saying and now you think I'm misconstruing what you're saying in repeating what you think I'm saying and telling you you're wrong about what I believe?

QUOTE

" But while they are cast into the great tribulation being left behind and will go through the wrath of God on the earth, they are still promised to reign with Him if they remain faithful"

Rev 13 debunks your false claim that those left behind go through ANY SUCH WRATH.
That is where your deal has led you.
You have half the church going through the wrath of God.

How does Revelation 13 debunk that those left behind go through any of God's wrath? It's not even talking about God's wrath, how does it say anything about it one way or the other.

I don't believe the wrath of God is started and finished in one day. In fact, the locusts from the bottomless pit, part of God's wrath, last for at least 5 months. All the trumpets, thunders, and bowls that fill up the wrath of God must start after the seals are broken and end before Armageddon.

I believe scripture places the sixth seal in the midst of the 70th week of Daniel and precedes the day of the Lord that begins with the wrath of God we're not appointed to.

If the parable of Matthew 25:1-13 speaks to half of those who are waiting for the bridegroom and expect to be going to the marriage shut out of it, then they are left behind.

If Yeshua's coming to gather His elect is before the wrath of God, which is coming on all them that dwell on the whole earth, then those who are not caught up remain on the earth to which that wrath is coming.

It just so happens that the great tribulation is also going on during that same time, which is really going to try those going through it. Not only will there be asteroids and fire and brimstone and stinking locusts, but all those who worship the false messiah will be searching them out like terrorists to convert or kill them.

This is where scripture leads me. If you are not caught up in the rapture, you will be going through the wrath of God that begins just after the rapture.

 

[A Watchman]

QUOTE

"This is to take to or take with oneself, a companion, which sounds very similar to the idea of being taken up to meet the Lord in the air. But the context can't be ignored. When asked where they are taken, it is where the birds gather around dead bodies."

What a coincidence it fits the pretrib rapture perfectly, but the riddle of Jesus, of bodies and vultures, has so many trying to fit that into some literal mixture of cunning interpretation.

Actually it's opposite of the pretrib rapture because it's talking about the great tribulation, not the rapture at all. In this, the great tribulation comes before the return of Yeshua as stated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and by Yeshua in Matthew 24:15-31.

I'm just reading Luke 17:31-37 where it repeats the unparalleled time from Matthew 24:15-22 pointing to Lot's wife dying for turning back to what they were fleeing from and stating that whoever seeks to save their lives will lose it and who will lose their lives will preserve it. This speaks of willingly giving up what has been built in this life to save your mortal life.

Then one taken and one left and when asked where the taken one went, it's the place of corpses. The pre-trib view typically says the taken is the rapture, I'm saying the taken is before the rapture during the great tribulation where the wicked take and kill those who reject the antichrist.

I don't know how to say it any more plainly I guess. It's not a cunning interpretation, it's trusting what Luke wrote of Yeshua's sayings, I'm literally taking Him at His Word.

Luke 17:31-37 – "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Bottom line is it is one or the other.

Either it is the rapture of the church, or half of a group is ACTUALLY TAKEN to a place of dead rotting bodies.( which fits absolutely nothing)

Either one taken one left is speaking of the rapture or it is speaking of the great tribulation.

Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes no sense to the rapture.

Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes complete sense during the great tribulation.

1) half the world is not, and never will be saved

2) since that is true, who is the group that half are singled out to sit on a hillside and stare at rotting bodies , or are taken to be those rotting bodies.
3)plus, that reference of bodies and vultures is AFTER THE 7 YEAR TRIB (or 3.5 of wrath, whatever the current modern day students need the 7 yr trib broken up into)
So that means, the half taken is AFTER THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON AND AFTER THECSECOND COMING.
HUH? NORMAL LIFE, EVERYDAY LIFE, COMMERCE, DESCRIBED BY JESUS, IS AFTER THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON????

4) that time difference of Jumping from Jesus pretrib/ preflood setting to 7 yrs later has to be some poorly thought out doctrine.

How can anyone buy into that twist?

1) There is no indication in scripture of all people who exist whether or not half are saved or not. Matthew 25:1-13 is in the context of those waiting for the bridegroom, those who call themselves Christians whether they are truly or not. Of the population of the world we have no comparison to say percentages in scripture except that most people will not choose God. That is more than half of humans, but in the parable of the claimed Christian church only half are in a relationship with the bridegroom. That's half of an unknown proportion in the world.

2) The one taken and one left are not representative of the whole world, this unparalleled time is taking place in Judea. Matthew 24:15-22 And just because one taken is compared with another who is not does not mean it's a 50/50 ratio, it's simply pointing out that some are taken and some aren't. Those who worship the antichrist will be killing and stacking the bodies of those who reject him during the great tribulation. Just like they will rejoice and give presents when the two witnesses die and they leave their bodies in the street, these people who will follow the Dragon and his Beast rejoice in their victory over God's people. And they are given victory for 42 months.

3) There is no seven year tribulation in scripture. The references to the great tribulation begin at the abomination of desolation which is in the midst of the week. Daniel 9:27 It is this time when the killing begins, in the midst of the week, and continues for 42 months. Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

4) Yeshua's return is not pre-trib and He promised to never flood the earth again. He is coming pre-wrath because He is the one carrying out the wrath of God. Isaiah 63:1-6 The great tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week in Judea, Yeshua returns to cut that short at His coming at the sixth seal and saves Israel into the wilderness, He also catches up His bride at the same time, and then He treads the winepress of the wrath of God with the seven trumpets, thunders, and bowls.

So that means the one taken and killed is under the altar at the fifth seal, Revelation 6:9-11, and will be resurrected at Yeshua's coming at the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-7:17, Matthew 24:29-31. This is about 1,230 days or around 41 months before Armageddon in the midst of the 70th week.

That is what I believe and it's nothing like what you are suggesting I believe. So I have no idea how anyone could buy into that twist either, it's crazy.

 

[Douggg]

The word "woe" does not equal a woe trump. Rev 12:12 is before the trib which is the 2nd woe trump so at the very best that verse is the first woe trump but IMO satan is cast out in the 3rd trump which is not a woe trump.

It is not just "woe" in Revelation 12:12, but woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Matching what is said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, what woe to the inhabiters of the earth number is Revelation 12:12, since you say it is not the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth ?

 

[A Watchman]

Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. You think He's going to rule over people that it says He just tread in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God? No, I don't believe that makes any sense. Psalm 2:7-9 confirms that He will destroy them, not rule over them in the way that you think. This lines up with other scripture which says He will destroy all unbelievers when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Both things are true at different times. At His coming He will destroy His enemies beginning with sudden destruction that continues until Armageddon.

Not all people in the world will be killed during this time and the ones that remain will be ruled by Yeshua for 1,000 years. Psalm 2:7-9 doesn't end with verse 9 and is not the only place we see Yeshua with a rod of iron.

Psalm 2:7-12 – "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him."

Revelation 2:26-27 – "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

Revelation 12:5 – "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne."

Revelation 19:15 – "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

The rod is a scepter representative of ones rule. The nations are smitten and ruled over by Him.

Zechariah 14:16-21 – "And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."

This is seen in Daniel 7 as well.

Daniel 7:3, 11-12 – "And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

The fourth beast with ten horns and the little horn is only one of four beasts that are diverse from each other and stand in front of each other. They exist at the same time of the end. When the fourth beast is destroyed, the other three beasts have their dominion taken away but their lives prolonged for a season.

This means that the Lord reigns over the earth, including some of those who were not killed at Armageddon because they weren't there. These kingdoms from the other three corners of the earth remain but lose their own power to reign because it is given to Yeshua to reign over them.

Now if all but God's kingdom is destroyed, whose nations is Yeshua ruling over with a rod of iron?

 

[A Watchman]

No, the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God occurs on the day He returns, as portrayed in Revelation 19:11-21. It will be in the form of "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape", according to Paul (1 Thess 5:2-3). It will be by way of fire coming down upon the earth, according to Peter (2 Peter 3:10-12).

But Yeshua is coming from heaven already wearing the evidence of the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God.

Isaiah 63:1-6 – "Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

This is connecting the blood on the clothes to the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God. Notice the day of vengeance and year of the redeemed is tied to this treading because both arrive with the one who is saving the redeemed and who is treading the winepress. This is at Yeshua's coming at the sixth seal in the midst of the 70th week.

Revelation 19:11-13 – "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Yeshua returns from heaven already wearing the blood-splattered clothes. Were the enemies of God in heaven when He tread the winepress, killing them in heaven before He returned from heaven at Armageddon?

No, His enemies were on the earth in the destination of His wrath and He tread the winepress of the wrath of God just after the sixth seal when He returned to save Israel out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea and catch up His bride to heaven before the wrath began.

The above scriptures are true in addition to 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night and we are not appointed to God's wrath, which is why we are removed from the destination of that wrath like Noah and Lot were.

The above scriptures are true in addition to 2 Peter 3:8-12. The day of the Lord is like a thousand years and at the start of that day the Lord will come like a thief in the night and judge the world. Then He will deliver the kingdoms up to the Father and reign, then all the dead will be judged, then at the very end of this "day" this heaven and earth will be destroyed with a fervent heat and the new heaven and earth will replace them forever.

 

[A Watchman]

What happens at the fifth trumpet is irrelevant to what we're talking about.

I disagree, it seems you are suggesting that when Yeshua returns all unbelievers are destroyed immediately by fire and don't escape. I'm saying that they will be destroyed, but not immediately and it will take place over an approximate 3.5 year period beginning with His coming at the sixth seal through Armageddon.

If the fifth trumpet has a period of five months for its duration alone, then the other six trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls must not also be immediate and they all come before Armageddon.

Yes, it does. It will arrive unexpectedly as a thief in the night, but the word "sudden" describes the destruction itself. It will occur suddenly. Quickly. Not over a period of time as you are trying to claim.

Would you agree that the following passages refer to the same event?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

What we can glean from these two passages is that the "sudden destruction" that Paul said will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night will be in the form of fire that burns up the earth. The earth's surface, anyway. Why would that take a period of time rather than happening suddenly/quickly? Do you think it took a period of time for Sodom and Gomorrah to be burned up? I don't believe that's the case.


That's just not what is indicated in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 at all.

Yes, those passages are the day of the Lord, which does indeed begin suddenly and ends with this heaven and earth passing away. But a day to man is not like a day to the Lord.

2 Peter 3:8 – "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Psalm 90:4-7 – "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are [as] a sleep: in the morning [they are] like grass [which] groweth up. In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth. For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled."

These must be taken into account as well because like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 they are true.

If a tsunami strikes a port town, would you say the destruction is sudden? Does that mean that many won't die as a result of it some time after that sudden destruction first arrived? Now if there are waves and waves, say seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls of tsunamis that don't all happen at once, would you say that wrath continues and is not immediate permanent destruction?

I'm not saying it doesn't arrive suddenly, I'm just adding that according to scripture it lasts longer than it's initial arrival. The sudden destruction at the beginning is only the beginning, it continues in wave after wave of destruction continually until the seventh bowl is complete.

 

[A Watchman]

Wrong. Scripture never teaches this. It says in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that we are not appointed to wrath. That's talking about God's wrath, as described earlier in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. It never says we are not appointed to Satan's wrath. Many Christians have been persecuted over the past almost 2,000 years, so there's no reason to think that we would ever be taken out of the world to avoid that. Scripture absolutely does not teach that anywhere.

I completely agree with you there, but we will be removed from the earth at the rapture right? So we will be taken out of the world at His coming by God's design and timing?

If we are forcibly snatched from the earth does that mean we are trying to avoid tribulation, or does it mean we had not choice in the matter and God chose when to snatch us out?

We will be taken off the earth to avoid God's final wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns in the form of fire coming down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

100% agree with you. I've never said any different and hold a pre-wrath view on the timing. I just disagree that the destruction by fire will happen in the time of one rotation of the earth. It will happen trumpet after trumpet, thunder after thunder, and bowl after bowl.

You believe we will be removed to avoid "the hour of temptation". To avoid Satan's wrath. That's not what scripture teaches, as I've shown.

I don't believe we will be removed to avoid "the hour of tempation," we will be removed prior to God's wrath. However, because I see Revelation 12:13-17, Daniel 12:11, and Matthew 24:15-31 among others splitting up the great tribulation into two phases, there are many Christians who will not experience the Dragon's wrath as a side effect of the timing of Yeshua's return.

It has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture, it's objectively not pre-trib because 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and Matthew 24:15-31 explicitly place the return of Christ after the abomination of desolation, and therefore great tribulation, has begin.

Why would you think we would be removed from the earth to avoid the hour of temptation when we would only need to be removed when God's wrath is coming down upon the entire earth?

I don't, we'll be removed when God removes us. What we want has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. I just know a lot of people like the idea of escaping hard times so they flock to the pre-trib view. I think that's the Word of God is a more sure foundation than personal desires or wants as far as understanding His plan for the end so I've looked there and found pre-trib to be incorrect. I've also found post-trib to be incorrect.

I don't like tying rapture timing to the tribulation because most people don't have a Biblical definition of the great tribulation so there are a bunch of thoughts people have when they hear great tribulation. So timing the rapture to it means people are all over the place.

We are promised to escape God's wrath and so I prefer the pre-wrath label, though mid-trib also works if I'm required to associate the rapture to the tribulation. But even that is nuanced and everyone has their own view of when "mid" is so I like pre-wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both things are true at different times. At His coming He will destroy His enemies beginning with sudden destruction that continues until Armageddon.

Not all people in the world will be killed during this time and the ones that remain will be ruled by Yeshua for 1,000 years. Psalm 2:7-9 doesn't end with verse 9 and is not the only place we see Yeshua with a rod of iron.

Psalm 2:7-12 – "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him."

Revelation 2:26-27 – "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

Revelation 12:5 – "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne."

Revelation 19:15 – "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

The rod is a scepter representative of ones rule. The nations are smitten and ruled over by Him.

Zechariah 14:16-21 – "And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."

This is seen in Daniel 7 as well.

Daniel 7:3, 11-12 – "And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

The fourth beast with ten horns and the little horn is only one of four beasts that are diverse from each other and stand in front of each other. They exist at the same time of the end. When the fourth beast is destroyed, the other three beasts have their dominion taken away but their lives prolonged for a season.

This means that the Lord reigns over the earth, including some of those who were not killed at Armageddon because they weren't there. These kingdoms from the other three corners of the earth remain but lose their own power to reign because it is given to Yeshua to reign over them.

Now if all but God's kingdom is destroyed, whose nations is Yeshua ruling over with a rod of iron?

You don't seem to understand what the rod of iron represents. It doesn't represent Jesus ruling over people in the way you imagine. It is directly associated with destruction.

Psalm 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

This is a clear picture of destruction in relation to His rod of iron, just like we can see in Revelation 19:15. This lines up with passages like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 which says that Jesus will be taking vengeance on unbelievers when He returns and destroying them. He will not be ruling over them on the earth. They will be destroyed. After that will be the judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) and then eternity will be ushered in.

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I completely agree with you there,

In that case, I'm sorry to say that you are not being very clear in your posts because you are not giving the impression that you agree with me with many of your comments.

but we will be removed from the earth at the rapture right?

Yes.

So we will be taken out of the world at His coming by God's design and timing?

Of course.

If we are forcibly snatched from the earth does that mean we are trying to avoid tribulation, or does it mean we had not choice in the matter and God chose when to snatch us out?

Who said anything about trying to avoid tribulation? Not me. I'm saying that there is no reason for us to be taken from the earth until the day Jesus returns and brings fire down upon His enemies (2 Peter 3:10-12). Why would we need to be taken off of the earth any time before that?

100% agree with you. I've never said any different

You sure come across as saying something different in your posts. I think you need to proofread your own posts before posting them because I don't get the impression that you agree with me based on what you say in them.

and hold a pre-wrath view on the timing.

Define your understanding of "wrath" in your pre-wrath view then. What does it entail exactly and how long does it last?

I just disagree that the destruction by fire will happen in the time of one rotation of the earth. It will happen trumpet after trumpet, thunder after thunder, and bowl after bowl.

How does that line up with what we see described in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? The word sudden means quickly, so Paul indicated that the wrath that will occur when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night will happen suddenly/quickly. Your view does not agree with that. And Peter indicated that the "sudden destruction" will be cause by fire coming down on the earth on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Again, your view does not line up with that.

I don't believe we will be removed to avoid "the hour of tempation," we will be removed prior to God's wrath.

So, what is the reason you refer to Revelation 3:10 to support your view then? That verse does not refer to God's wrath.

However, because I see Revelation 12:13-17, Daniel 12:11, and Matthew 24:15-31 among others splitting up the great tribulation into two phases, there are many Christians who will not experience the Dragon's wrath as a side effect of the timing of Yeshua's return.

Sorry, but I can't comprehend what you're saying at all here.

It has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture, it's objectively not pre-trib because 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and Matthew 24:15-31 explicitly place the return of Christ after the abomination of desolation, and therefore great tribulation, has begin.

You say your rapture view is pre-wrath. Would you also say it is post-trib, which would agree with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31?

I don't, we'll be removed when God removes us. What we want has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture.

I never said otherwise.

I just know a lot of people like the idea of escaping hard times so they flock to the pre-trib view.

That's a fact. It's sad.

I think that's the Word of God is a more sure foundation than personal desires or wants as far as understanding His plan for the end so I've looked there and found pre-trib to be incorrect. I've also found post-trib to be incorrect.

Post-trib is definitely correct. Jesus explicitly taught it in Matthew 24:29-31 and the parallel passage of Mark 13:24-27. I'm defining the "trib" the way Jesus did and He said He will come and gather the elect after the trib. Are you defining the "trib" the way Jesus did or coming up with your own definition of the trib, as some people like to do, which causes confusion in these discussions?

I don't like tying rapture timing to the tribulation because most people don't have a Biblical definition of the great tribulation so there are a bunch of thoughts people have when they hear great tribulation. So timing the rapture to it means people are all over the place.

Okay, so you know what I'm talking about as far as people not all defining the "trib" part of pre-trib and post-trib the same way. We should just stick to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) when determining whether the rapture is pre-trib or post-trib and, according to Jesus Himself, it will clearly be post-trib.

We are promised to escape God's wrath and so I prefer the pre-wrath label, though mid-trib also works if I'm required to associate the rapture to theI tribulation. But even that is nuanced and everyone has their own view of when "mid" is so I like pre-wrath.

If you would explain exactly what your understanding of the tribulation is and what it entails that would be helpful so that we can be on the same page as far as what we're talking about here.

 

[A Watchman]

The one taken and one left happens at the second coming, not the trib. Christ does the taking and leaving so the one taken represents the raptured saints, and those left are left on the Earth for the wrath of God.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In the passage Christ gives many examples of what his return will be like. THEN means "at that time" referring to the coming of Christ.

Yes, but we must also understand that the great tribulation and His coming are within about a 30 day period of time. The days of the coming of the Son of man. Note the plural. Yeshua comes on one day and hour we don't know, but the coming of the Son of man is associated with days plural. So was the days of Noah and the days of Lot. The coming of the Son of man is a series of events leading to it, starting with the great tribulation.

It's easy to read Noah and Lot with the taken left because of how it's written, but note the statements.

Luke 17:24-30 – "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

It starts out with the Son of man in His day singular which He will come as lightning from east to west. That's the day and hour no man knows, the literal day He comes.

Then the days of Noah speaks of the time just before the flood came, not the day the flood began. Even then the flood was not destruction on that very day, it took time. The days of Noah plural are tied to the days plural of the Son of man, not the singular day He returns on a day and hour we don't know, but the time leading up to that.

Then the days of Lot, which are tied to the days of the Son of man, both plural again so not the actual day Yeshua returns but the time before it just as stated in plain meaning. The difference with Lot is that same day the destruction was complete and immediate in addition to sudden.

Finally the closing statement to the Noah and Lot analogy tying the day the Son of man is revealed that we don't know the day or hour of being tied to the time leading up to that day, when they were eating and drinking, marriage, buying selling ending with the sudden destruction.

The red is the great tribulation, blue who the time is focused on, and green their salvation out of it.

Luke 17:31-37 – "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Now we are told that in that day of His revealing there is something going on that Matthew's account ties to the time after the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation. Each day begins at dusk, the beginning of the days of the Son of man is tied to the beginning of the great tribulation when the faithful to God are killed by the antichrist. That time continues until the day and hour no man knows when the Son of man is revealed from heaven to take vengeance on the world.

The great tribulation and return of Christ are intricately linked together because He's coming to save His people out of that time and cut it short so some live beyond it.

Jeremiah 30:4-7 – "And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

Daniel 12:1 – "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

These are all the same time out of which those in Judea are saved out of by the return of Christ in His day. These are the times leading up to that return and the return is the saving them out of it.

Revelation 12:13-16 – "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Zechariah 14:4-5 – "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee."

This unparalleled time is the first phase of the great tribulation, focused on the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. The second phase comes after her being saved out of it.

Revelation 12:17 – "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

So I agree this is about the time leading up to and including the return of Christ. As in the days of Noah and Lot man will be doing their thing, which includes the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. The rest of the world will not yet be affected by this false messiah asserting his claimed deity in Judea. But once Yeshua returns and saves His people out of Judea into the wilderness, phase 2 of the great tribulation will begin when he turns his attention to the remnant of her seed outside Judea and those holding the testimony of Christ.

 

[A Watchman]

Happens first ..................................................................Happens last

Good-Noah and family............................................................Bad-the rest/drowned
Good-Lot and his family......(Luke 17)...............................Bad-those left in the city
Good-the one taken/accepted...........................................Bad-the one left/rejected
Good-the goodman..................................................................Bad-the thief
Good-the wise servant..........................................................Bad-the evil servant
Good-the wise virgins...........................................................Bad-the foolish virgins
Good-servants that increased the talents..................Bad-the servant that did not have an increase
Good-the sheep.........................................................................Bad-the goats

The saved people............................................................The punished people

In these verses Christ will give multiple examples to teach the same exact thing. There is always a good one on one side and a bad one on the other. The good one is always shown in some type of action FIRST, and the bad one is always LAST.

All on the left side represent the same group of people that are good, wise, profitable, accepted etc.
All on the right side represent the same group of people that are bad, foolish, unprofitable, rejected etc.

I get what you're saying and agree with the exception of the one taken because they're explicitly taken to the place of corpses, not good.

Most read Noah and Lot in terms of the rapture, which is true. It's also true that it's in terms of the coming of Christ and the sudden wrath of God. Yeshua's return includes all those things. But it's also about the time before the flood came and before fire and brimstone rained on the cities. So to are the days of the Son of man, a period before and leading up to that time where the wicked will kill the righteous, the great tribulation.