Jesus' Gospel, and Paul's.

[Garrison]

Here are three examples of how Paul's "gospel" is a departure from Christ's Gospel.

1.) Jesus gave clear instructions about how to be forgiven, be saved, and receive Eternal Life. Mat. 6:14-15, "If you forgive men their tresspasses, your Father which is in heaven will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your tresspasses." As well, the rich nobleman who came to Jesus asking about eternal life in Luke 18:18-23 was told by Jesus to perform the works of The Commandments, and to divest himself of personal wealth. Jesus said nothing about "Grace."

Paul diverted from this by saying in Eph. 2:8, "By Grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Paul ignored Jesus' clear requirement a person must forgive all others their tresspasses before they can enter Heaven, and must follow The Commandments. Additionally, Jesus never is shown anywhere to speak the word "grace," yet Paul constantly promoted it.

2.) Paul jumps up with his idea of coming to Christ by writing in Rom. 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This is not what Jesus said. Mat. 7:21 has Jesus saying, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the Will of my Father." Doing the Will of God is a works based salvation, far from Paul's so called "grace."

3.) Paul strangely writes in 1 Tim. 2:4, "[God] Who will have all men to be saved." This is Universalism at its heart. But, Jesus stated in Mat. 7:21, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads into life, and few there be that find it." Paul's "All men" is not in any manner the same as Jesus' "few."

Chatting, sharing possible ideas, exegeting Scripture, becoming intense, speaking ad hominem, and diverting this topic will not change the gross discrepancies of Paul's gospel in comparison to Jesus' statements from The Father Himself.

 

[bbyrd009]

i'm pretty sure the same concept is just being restated differently, but what exactly are you implying here, that Paul should not be in the NT? or what exactly? ty

 

[Garrison]

How is Paul's teaching on "grace" spoken of by Christ as He specifies the works of forgivess of others and obedience to The Commands for salvation?

 

[Sword]

Ahh may be and its only a maybe. But God wrote the bible. So take it up with Him. I think you need to realise that the bible is Jesus. Jesus is the word. God never made any mistakes in the bible. And if you read it and believe it. Theres no problems. But if you want to find holes you will find them. I would ask you to stop the divsion and saying God got it wrong. But hey that my advice. You can do what you like. Your hear nd asking so there it is. YOU will see what YOU want to see. If you believe in healing you will see it. If you dont you wont. Its up to you. Its called free will.
So many arguments and you found another. I am sure people will want to fight you on this I dont. Not right now. You think the bibles wrong fine.
I dont.

 

[lforrest]

1. God does not abide hypocrites, so he refuses to forgive us if we do not forgive others.

2. Yet Romans 2:6-8 is used in support of works based salvation.

3. God does not force people to believe, if they want to persist in unbelief they will be destroyed.

 

[Garrison]

"I need to realize The Bible is Jesus?" Lol. Sure. Stay with that thought minus a basis.

It sounds like you think there are holes in The Bible, and its meaning depends entirely upon a given reader's personal perspective. Did you forget no place in The Bible says such a thing about "perspective?" Lol.

In fact, Hebrews 4:11 specifies "The Word if God is living and active, ... powerful." Nothing there about "perspective," is there? Nope. Not at all.

 

[Helen]

Ahh may be and its only a maybe. But God wrote the bible. So take it up with Him.
I think you need to realise that the bible is Jesus. Jesus is the word. God never made any mistakes in the bible. And if you read it and believe it. Theres no problems.
But if you want to find holes you will find them. I would ask you to stop the division and saying God got it wrong. But hey that my advice.
You can do what you like. Your hear and asking so there it is. YOU will see what YOU want to see.
If you believe in healing you will see it. If you dont you wont. Its up to you. Its called free will.
So many arguments and you found another. I am sure people will want to fight you on this I dont. Not right now. You think the bibles wrong, fine.
I dont.

Amen, well said. ✟
It seems that somehow a person can totally "forget" that God knocked Saul off his donkey into the dirt, God took Saul's vision, and then healed and restored his vision..and gave him a new vision- God's vision for the Church. Yay!
God hand picked Paul..and gave him his ministry in being God's own mouth-piece.
It seems that some people are foolish enough to believe that they know better than God!! LOL

 

[ScottA]

Here are three examples of how Paul's "gospel" is a departure from Christ's Gospel.

1.) Jesus gave clear instructions about how to be forgiven, be saved, and receive Eternal Life. Mat. 6:14-15, "If you forgive men their tresspasses, your Father which is in heaven will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your tresspasses." As well, the rich nobleman who came to Jesus asking about eternal life in Luke 18:18-23 was told by Jesus to perform the works of The Commandments, and to divest himself of personal wealth. Jesus said nothing about "Grace."

Paul diverted from this by saying in Eph. 2:8, "By Grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Paul ignored Jesus' clear requirement a person must forgive all others their tresspasses before they can enter Heaven, and must follow The Commandments. Additionally, Jesus never is shown anywhere to speak the word "grace," yet Paul constantly promoted it.

2.) Paul jumps up with his idea of coming to Christ by writing in Rom. 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This is not what Jesus said. Mat. 7:21 has Jesus saying, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the Will of my Father." Doing the Will of God is a works based salvation, far from Paul's so called "grace."

3.) Paul strangely writes in 1 Tim. 2:4, "[God] Who will have all men to be saved." This is Universalism at its heart. But, Jesus stated in Mat. 7:21, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads into life, and few there be that find it." Paul's "All men" is not in any manner the same as Jesus' "few."

Chatting, sharing possible ideas, exegeting Scripture, becoming intense, speaking ad hominem, and diverting this topic will not change the gross discrepancies of Paul's gospel in comparison to Jesus' statements from The Father Himself.

Okay...so, they're different. But it is obvious you don't know why, nor even that it is the providence of God that His word not return void in spite of that difference.

Don't you want to know why?

 

[Garrison]

Amen, well said. ✟
It seems that somehow a person can totally "forget" that God knocked Saul off his donkey into the dirt, God took Saul's vision, and then healed and restored his vision..and gave him a new vision- God's vision for the Church. Yay!
God hand picked Paul..and gave him his ministry in being God's own mouth-piece.
It seems that some people are foolish enough to believe that they know better than God!! LOL

Some people are foolish enough to think emotional intensity with exclamation marks "!!" validates their imaginary doctrines.

Paul did not have the pedigree of The Fruits of The Spirit:

1.) Paul argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, the Founders of The Church, over issues upon which he had no authority. He was dismissed by The Apostles.

2.) Paul fought with his own people, so much so, they abandoned him. No peace reigned in his heart.

3.) In many of His writings, Paul speaks "I/Me/My" far more many times than speaking "God/Christ/Father/Lord." 1 Cor. 4 shows him speaking of himself 3x more than of God and Jesus. Paul was far too focused upon himself.

4.) Proverbs 10:19 states, "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin; but he that refrains his lips is wise." For example, at one point in Acts, Paul drones on so long into the night a young man fell to His unnecessary death, all because Paul ignored Proverbs 10:19. Just because Paul brought him back to life does not justify Paul's disobedience to Proverbs 10:19.

5.) Paul inserted his own thoughts onto Scripture. He stated in 1 Cor. 7:12, "Speak I, not the Lord."

6.) Paul said The Law Brings Death, which is not what Jesus said. Jesus clearly taught obedience to The Law, so much so He fulfilled it.

7.) Paul lied when he stated "tongues are not for people, only for God," then later said "tongues are for prophecy, instruction, and knowledge" for people in the Church. Later as well, he said tongues were for "a sign to inbelievers."

Okay...so, they're different. But it is obvious you don't know why, nor even that it is the providence of God that His word not return void in spite of that difference.

Don't you want to know why?

Please, Tell me why. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Stranger]

Some people are foolish enough to think emotional intensity with exclamation marks "!!" validates their imaginary doctrines.

Paul did not have the pedigree of The Fruits of The Spirit:

1.) Paul argued with The Jerusalem Apostles, the Founders of The Church, over issues upon which he had no authority. He was dismissed by The Apostles.

2.) Paul fought with his own people, so much so, they abandoned him. No peace reigned in his heart.

3.) In many of His writings, Paul speaks "I/Me/My" far more many times than speaking "God/Christ/Father/Lord." 1 Cor. 4 shows him speaking of himself 3x more than of God and Jesus. Paul was far too focused upon himself.

4.) Proverbs 10:19 states, "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin; but he that refrains his lips is wise." For example, at one point in Acts, Paul drones on so long into the night a young man fell to His unnecessary death, all because Paul ignored Proverbs 10:19. Just because Paul brought him back to life does not justify Paul's disobedience to Proverbs 10:19.

5.) Paul inserted his own thoughts onto Scripture. He stated in 1 Cor. 7:12, "Speak I, not the Lord."

6.) Paul said The Law Brings Death, which is not what Jesus said. Jesus clearly taught obedience to The Law, so much so He fulfilled it.

7.) Paul lied when he stated "tongues are not for people, only for God," then later said "tongues are for prophecy, instruction, and knowledge" for people in the Church. Later as well, he said tongues were for "a sign to inbelievers."

Please, Tell me why. Thanks for your concern.

1.) Paul had the authority of the risen Jesus Christ. Where in Scripture do you say he did not?

2.) So? Paul had conflict with other believers. Big deal.

3.) Paul was focused on himself as much as God was focused on Paul.

4.) Stupid illustration. What a reach.

5.) Paul's words were inspired by God.

6.) When Jesus was on the earth, He was under the Law. Thus He taught obedience to the Law. But, that itself always brings death. Christ fulfilled the Law. But, guess what? He had to die to do it.

7.) Scripture to support your accusation.

Stranger

 

[Garrison]

1.) Paul had the authority of the risen Jesus Christ. Where in Scripture do you say he did not?

2.) So? Paul had conflict with other believers. Big deal.

3.) Paul was focused on himself as much as God was focused on Paul.

4.) Stupid illustration. What a reach.

5.) Paul's words were inspired by God.

6.) When Jesus was on the earth, He was under the Law. Thus He taught obedience to the Law. But, that itself always brings death. Christ fulfilled the Law. But, guess what? He had to die to do it.

7.) Scripture to support your accusation.

Stranger

No person with authority validated Paul. Paul gave self witness of His supposed commission from Jesus in an epiphany, but no second witness could verify Paul's around of seeing Jesus.

Paul's conduct to alienate his own compatriots showed his lack of Divine direction. Paul literally spoke of himself multiple times more than speaking of The Lord. Count them yourself and see. Lol. Such a self centered mind can only exaggerate and falsify all matters.

The only Scripture which existed when Paul wrote "theopneustos" in 2 Tim 3:16 was the Law and Prophets. The Catholic Organization of Fools had not yet canonized the NT. Therefore, Paul was not referring to His own writings. Try to think clearly.

 

[Stranger]

No person with authority validated Paul. Paul gave self witness of His supposed commission from Jesus in an epiphany, but no second witness could verify Paul's around of seeing Jesus.

Paul's conduct to alienate his own compatriots showed his lack of Divine direction. Paul literally spoke of himself multiple times more than speaking of The Lord. Count them yourself and see. Lol. Such a self centered mind can only exaggerate and falsify all matters.

The only Scripture which existed when Paul wrote "theopneustos" in 2 Tim 3:16 was the Law and Prophets. The Catholic Organization of Fools had not yet canonized the NT. Therefore, Paul was not referring to His own writings. Try to think clearly.

I see you don't want to follow your six points. I understand.

Another lie from you. Pete validated Paul. (2 Peter 3:15-16) "...our beloved brother Paul..according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things...which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures...."

As I said before under your #2 about Paul having conflict with other believers. Big deal?

Nothing wrong with the Law and the Prophets. So what? And Paul also had his own revelation he had been given from the risen Jesus Christ.

Anything else?

Stranger

 

[Garrison]

I see you don't want to follow your six points. I understand.

Another lie from you. Pete validated Paul. (2 Peter 3:15-16) "...our beloved brother Paul..according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things...which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures...."

As I said before under your #2 about Paul having conflict with other believers. Big deal?

Nothing wrong with the Law and the Prophets. So what? And Paul also had his own revelation he had been given from the risen Jesus Christ.

Anything else?

Stranger

You keep asking for help, but I doubt you really want it. Did I hurt your sensitive feelings?

 

[Stranger]

You keep asking for help, but I doubt you really want it. Did I hurt your sensitive feelings?

Reread. I didn't ask for help. I showed you that you don't know what you are talking about. Which didn't take very long. And then asked if you got anything else. Which you apparently don't.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

How is Paul's teaching on "grace" spoken of by Christ as He specifies the works of forgivess of others and obedience to The Commands for salvation?

you would have to rephrase this as a legible question rather than a veiled sermon, no offense. Not even sure what the question is here.

 

[Marymog]

Here are three examples of how Paul's "gospel" is a departure from Christ's Gospel.

1.) Jesus gave clear instructions about how to be forgiven, be saved, and receive Eternal Life. Mat. 6:14-15, "If you forgive men their tresspasses, your Father which is in heaven will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your tresspasses." As well, the rich nobleman who came to Jesus asking about eternal life in Luke 18:18-23 was told by Jesus to perform the works of The Commandments, and to divest himself of personal wealth. Jesus said nothing about "Grace."

Paul diverted from this by saying in Eph. 2:8, "By Grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Paul ignored Jesus' clear requirement a person must forgive all others their tresspasses before they can enter Heaven, and must follow The Commandments. Additionally, Jesus never is shown anywhere to speak the word "grace," yet Paul constantly promoted it.

2.) Paul jumps up with his idea of coming to Christ by writing in Rom. 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This is not what Jesus said. Mat. 7:21 has Jesus saying, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the Will of my Father." Doing the Will of God is a works based salvation, far from Paul's so called "grace."

3.) Paul strangely writes in 1 Tim. 2:4, "[God] Who will have all men to be saved." This is Universalism at its heart. But, Jesus stated in Mat. 7:21, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads into life, and few there be that find it." Paul's "All men" is not in any manner the same as Jesus' "few."

Chatting, sharing possible ideas, exegeting Scripture, becoming intense, speaking ad hominem, and diverting this topic will not change the gross discrepancies of Paul's gospel in comparison to Jesus' statements from The Father Himself.

Hi Garrison,

Should The Church disregard everything Paul wrote? Or just the text you cited?

Curious Mary

 

[ScottA]

Please, Tell me why. Thanks for your concern.

Jesus had come for the house of Israel, and spoke specifically to Israel, before the cross. Paul on the other hand was commissioned by Jesus to minister to the gentiles, that being after the cross.

Thus, Jesus' words were to those who were under the law and had waited upon the promise of Messiah, who would become the dead in Christ, only according to the promise, which Jesus spoke to. But Paul's mission was not to build that foundation over again repeating the same words, but to build upon it, to press on, leaving behind the basic principles or Christ, of which he preached to those, unlike Israel, who would come to know the Holy Spirit and His leading unto all truth.

 

[Acadia]

Here are three examples of how Paul's "gospel" is a departure from Christ's Gospel.

1.) Jesus gave clear instructions about how to be forgiven, be saved, and receive Eternal Life. Mat. 6:14-15, "If you forgive men their tresspasses, your Father which is in heaven will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your tresspasses." As well, the rich nobleman who came to Jesus asking about eternal life in Luke 18:18-23 was told by Jesus to perform the works of The Commandments, and to divest himself of personal wealth. Jesus said nothing about "Grace."

We need to understand who Jesus was speaking to. As He Himself said, He came only for "the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) At the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, He had not yet fulfilled the Law. He had not yet gone to the cross, been crucified and buried. He had not yet risen and ascended into Heaven. The temple veil had not been torn in two, signifying the fulfillment of the Law and its righteous requirements, and enabling us, through our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, to come directly to God, through Him.

This does not mean that Jesus' words do not have significance for us today, it simply means we need to carefully study and understand the context. Rightly diving the "word of truth."

Paul diverted from this by saying in Eph. 2:8, "By Grace are you saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Paul ignored Jesus' clear requirement a person must forgive all others their tresspasses before they can enter Heaven, and must follow The Commandments. Additionally, Jesus never is shown anywhere to speak the word "grace," yet Paul constantly promoted it.

Jesus had a number of things to say about faith (belief) in Him being what was necessary for salvation.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:14-18

2.) Paul jumps up with his idea of coming to Christ by writing in Rom. 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Jesus confirmed this many times in Scripture. I shared one example above, here's another:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."- John 6:47

This is not what Jesus said. Mat. 7:21 has Jesus saying, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the Will of my Father." Doing the Will of God is a works based salvation, far from Paul's so called "grace."

Unfortunately those verses have been used by many to argue for a works based salvation. They actually say the exact opposite. First of all, we need to understand what the "will of the Father" is.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:38-40

The "will of the Father" is that we believe on the Son, Jesus Christ, Whom He sent.

Next, let's look at who Jesus is referring to in Matthew 7.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:21-23

The context of this verse, from the proceding verses, is that Jesus is warning about "false prophets" that will come in "sheep's clothing." When we look carefully we understand that it is only those who believe on the Son (the "will of the Father") that shall enter the kingdom. The people Jesus tells to depart are those who, rather than simply believing in Him, chose instead to bring their "many wonderful works" to be saved. As they had not done the "will of the Father" and believed on the Son, they were sent away.

We cannot work our way into the kingdom, we must put our faith solely in Christ, adding nothing and taking nothing away. So, no, doing the "will of the Father" is not "works based salvation", it is faith based salvation, believing on the Son.

3.) Paul strangely writes in 1 Tim. 2:4, "[God] Who will have all men to be saved." This is Universalism at its heart.

No, it is not, and Paul never taught universalism. The Bible does in fact say that God desires that none should perish, but that all come to repentance. However, Scripture is also clear that not everyone will turn to Christ and be saved. That does not, however, change the fact that Christ died to take away the sins of the world, and that salvation is very much available to anyone who believes on the Son and trusts in Him alone to save. Paul never taught otherwise, he knew, as is evident in his epistles, that salvation is in Christ alone.

But, Jesus stated in Mat. 7:21, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads into life, and few there be that find it." Paul's "All men" is not in any manner the same as Jesus' "few."

Paul's "all men" is simply saying that salvation is available to all, not that all will turn to Christ and receive it.

Chatting, sharing possible ideas, exegeting Scripture, becoming intense, speaking ad hominem, and diverting this topic will not change the gross discrepancies of Paul's gospel in comparison to Jesus' statements from The Father Himself.

The above comment indicates that your mind is made up and that you are entirely unwilling to consider that perhaps Paul doesn't have a different "Gospel" after all.

Speaking of which, here is the Gospel according to Paul:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...

- 1 Corinthians 25:1-4

So, what specifically do you object to regarding Paul's understanding of the Gospel?

 

[jaybird]

i never understood why (in the NT) there are so many writings of Paul and so little from the 12 Apostles. James was the leader of the Jerusalem church and all we have from him are 2 small scriptures.
if Pauls works became scripture what about the other apostles of apostles like Paul?

 

[ScottA]

i never understood why (in the NT) there are so many writings of Paul and so little from the 12 Apostles. James was the leader of the Jerusalem church and all we have from him are 2 small scriptures.
if Pauls works became scripture what about the other apostles of apostles like Paul?

It was Paul who was specifically chosen to be an apostle under the Holy Spirit, not by the fleshly ministry of Christ, but of the Spirit of Christ.

The other apostles were under Christ under the old covenant and would join "the dead in Christ", the salvation of "those who are asleep", those under "the first Adam." This we know, because He told them, "Where I go you cannot come", meaning "in the spirit."

But, it is "the living" "in Christ", whom "are alive at His coming" who have the Holy Spirit which Paul also had. For he said, "we who are alive at His coming", including himself. These are the descendants of "the Last Adam", "a life-giving spirit."

These are "the times of the gentiles" spoken of by Joel the prophet, saying: "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh."