Jesus' Gospel, and Paul's.

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jaybird

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Are you purposely trying to start some form of childish fight ? I can't figure where you're coming from...the Gospel of the Good news WAS the changing from the Old to the New...2 parts of the same news ( Gospel)...He taught many things to His disciples about the New, but had to 'be under' the old until He died and Rose again...

so this would mean everything Jesus taught was not meant for us to hear being as it was all taught under a different covenant? and the example of Jesus, again not meant for us.
sorry you think its childish but the idea of Jesus is our example but not our example makes no sense at all. it makes even less sense that Jesus would be teaching so much on things that were not going to matter anyway.
 

Helen

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so this would mean everything Jesus taught was not meant for us to hear being as it was all taught under a different covenant? and the example of Jesus, again not meant for us.
sorry you think its childish but the idea of Jesus is our example but not our example makes no sense at all. it makes even less sense that Jesus would be teaching so much on things that were not going to matter anyway.

I can't believe that you 'really' do think that is what we are saying.
Really? :rolleyes:
Carry on playing your games.
 
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jaybird

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They are listed:
Matthew 25:34-36
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

...But, keep in mind, that we do these things in His name (not our own):

Mark 16:17
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
No, sorry, I did not mean to infer that Paul was of the 12. He is indeed an apostle, but different, in that he has part in both the old and the new covenants: "one foot on the land and one foot on the sea", "for the Jew first and also for the Greek."

with respect i dont think your understanding what i am asking. let me try another way. why are the works of Paul in our bible?
No, Paul was not teaching a different gospel, but he was rather teaching and preaching to that "other fold" spoken of by Christ.
if his gospel was the same what difference would it make who he was preaching to?
if Paul says "you will have life in His name"
and James says "you will have life in His name"
does the teaching change whether its Paul or James saying it?
 

jaybird

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I can't believe that you 'really' do think that is what we are saying.
Really? :rolleyes:
Carry on playing your games.
so far i have heard Jesus, the 12 were part of another covenant, everything they did waas part of this other covenant, that covenant is not meant for us. therefore their example and teachings are not meant for us. how else am i supposed to understand it?
i have asked a lot of questions, stated a lot of facts, and rather than respond to any of this you just say its childish.
 

pia

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so this would mean everything Jesus taught was not meant for us to hear being as it was all taught under a different covenant? and the example of Jesus, again not meant for us.
sorry you think its childish but the idea of Jesus is our example but not our example makes no sense at all. it makes even less sense that Jesus would be teaching so much on things that were not going to matter anyway.
You are not making a lick of sense, sorry.....Have no idea how to proceed...Are you a Christian ? If so, what does that mean to you ?
 

Richard_oti

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im not sure i agree. Paul had many years of training and where did it lead him, to killing the followers of Jesus, the true way was right there in front of him and all those years of training didnt help him see it.

In your opinion: How many modern day theologians with years of training are on the "right track"?

In your opinion: How many Christians that are alive and well today with years of reading their Bibles are on the narrow path?

In your opinion: Would an encounter such as the one on the Damascus road help them see it?

It remains possible, that for all my years, that perhaps I still don't see it. And no doubt, there are probably places in which I do not.


if we had the faith that Jesus taught IMO we could cast lots.

Does it really take "faith" to do so? We could just as well "draw straws" or "flip a coin". All we have to do, is to accept the outcome, whatever that may be and "believe" it is of or from "God".
For that matter, anyone, inclusive of non-believers, can and do use such methods. Consider the "coin toss" at the start of a football game.

However, if we run ahead of "God" and used "craps", the drawing of straws, flipping a coin, cutting a deck of cards, or even casting lots to attempt to decide something that is not in line with His will: Shall the outcome truly be correct? Truly be the "will" of "God"?

To propose a ludicrous question: Shall you and I flip a coin or cast lots to determine which of us shall be left behind and which shall be taken in some "Rapture"?


its a grey area, Judas dies, Jesus comes back, Jesus and the 11 are back together, a 12th is needed and nothing is ever mentioned between Jesus and the 11. very strange. the original 12 were chosen by the living Jesus.

So, Jesus is no longer "alive"? Or, wasn't "alive" when Paul was chosen? <lifts eyebrows>

And yes, it is a "grey area". It is not something to be divisive with regard unto it.
 
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Richard_oti

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Concerning Paul's apostleship and that of Matthias, Matthias was the replacement for Judas. (Acts 1:15-26) The casting of lots was not a crap game as some describe it. It was a legitimate Old Testament method of determining the will of God. (Lev. 16:8-10), (Num. 26:55) And (Prov. 16:33) says, "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

Indeed, it was used. It decided which tribe would inherit what parcel of land, who would be assigned what "job", and the order of which each would take their turn. It decided which of two goats would be the sin offering and which would be sent off into the wilderness.

However, according to the "lot", so also was Jonathan to die (cf 1 Sam 14). The garments of Jesus were divided by lot.


At the time of choosing a replacement for Judas, the Holy Spirit had not yet come. Thus the casting of lots was used. And God honored this method. (Acts 1:26), (Acts 2:14)

Because the lot was used, should Jonathan have been put to death?

Since "God" honors / honored that method, perhaps we should cast lots here amoung all those of us who post to "causeth contentions to cease", to determine the "rank" of each of us and add that to our profiles. We could place it right under "Likes Received" : "Lots Received". In that way, we would all know our rightful place according to "God" and which of us outranks the other. We could clearly see who is approved of men, and who is approved of "God". Would be rather interesting don't ya think?

Pro 18:18a The lot causeth contentions to cease...


Paul was an apostle, just not one of the twelve.

That is your opinion, and that is fine. It does not matter to me. Heck, perhaps we should cast lots to see if it is Matthias or Paul whose name is written upon one of the twelve foundations.

And yes, I noticed your "disclaimer", that the Holy Spirit had not yet come.
 
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jaybird

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In your opinion: How many modern day theologians with years of training are on the "right track"?

In your opinion: How many Christians that are alive and well today with years of reading their Bibles are on the narrow path?
im sure there are plenty on both paths, i cant speak for them.

In your opinion: Would an encounter such as the one on the Damascus road help them see it?
yes
It remains possible, that for all my years, that perhaps I still don't see it. And no doubt, there are probably places in which I do not.
i still dont see it.


Does it really take "faith" to do so? We could just as well "draw straws" or "flip a coin". All we have to do, is to accept the outcome, whatever that may be and "believe" it is of or from "God".
For that matter, anyone, inclusive of non-believers, can and do use such methods. Consider the "coin toss" at the start of a football game.

However, if we run ahead of "God" and used "craps", the drawing of straws, flipping a coin, cutting a deck of cards, or even casting lots to attempt to decide something that is not in line with His will: Shall the outcome truly be correct? Truly be the "will" of "God"?
do you think the 11 should have waited?



So, Jesus is no longer "alive"? Or, wasn't "alive" when Paul was chosen? <lifts eyebrows>
the living Jesus is just my way of saying when Jesus was doing His ministry.

And yes, it is a "grey area". It is not something to be divisive with regard unto it.
i dont want to divide anyone. i have no issue with anything Paul teaches. my issue has always been the other good teachers like Paul that we never get to hear.
 
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Richard_oti

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im sure there are plenty on both paths, i cant speak for them.

Well answered. Nor can I speak for them. However, you no doubt have some opinions. At least with regard to some.



Thus, you do have an opinion with regard to some.


i still dont see it.

Assuming, that I am understanding your response correctly, a least you are honest. That I like. And, even given another possible understanding of your response, you are still honest.


do you think the 11 should have waited?

I don't know. It is not a question IMO that any of us can answer of a certainty one way or the other. However, I do know human nature, and how impetuous we can be, running ahead, without waiting upon YHVH (cf Isa 40:31; Lam 3:25).

My opinion still remains, that the 12 whose names are written upon the 12 foundations, are those who were hand picked by Jesus. One day, we shall know, and I shall look forward to those who may be able to tell me: "I told you so".


the living Jesus is just my way of saying when Jesus was doing His ministry.

Understood. I just couldn't resist picking on you a little.


i dont want to divide anyone. i have no issue with anything Paul teaches.

Which is good to hear. I have spent time amoungst those of the anti-Pauline persuasion and heard their "arguments". It was actually a great experience. Imagine trying to debate someone and not being able to use Luke, or any of Paul's writings in your response or to make a point. Debating them only using the "books" that they accept as "Scripture".


my issue has always been the other good teachers like Paul that we never get to hear.

Ok, I can see and hear your point. I agree, it would be nice to hear more from others. However, we have what we have been given. I once asked questions not unlike what you ask here. I was assured not of men, that we have what we need. Read it, learn it ...

I have read most of the "lost" books, apocryphal books, etc. over the years. Be grounded before you delve too deeply into any of them, or before you make decisions based upon that which you read in them or allow them to sway you. I have seen too many make "doctrines" based upon such and fall prey to the adversary.

May YHVH bless you in your search.
 

Stranger

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Indeed, it was used. It decided which tribe would inherit what parcel of land, who would be assigned what "job", and the order of which each would take their turn. It decided which of two goats would be the sin offering and which would be sent off into the wilderness.

However, according to the "lot", so also was Jonathan to die (cf 1 Sam 14). The garments of Jesus were divided by lot.




Because the lot was used, should Jonathan have been put to death?

Since "God" honors / honored that method, perhaps we should cast lots here amoung all those of us who post to "causeth contentions to cease", to determine the "rank" of each of us and add that to our profiles. We could place it right under "Likes Received" : "Lots Received". In that way, we would all know our rightful place according to "God" and which of us outranks the other. We could clearly see who is approved of men, and who is approved of "God". Would be rather interesting don't ya think?

Pro 18:18a The lot causeth contentions to cease...




That is your opinion, and that is fine. It does not matter to me. Heck, perhaps we should cast lots to see if it is Matthias or Paul whose name is written upon one of the twelve foundations.

And yes, I noticed your "disclaimer", that the Holy Spirit had not yet come.

The point was that the lot was a legitimate Old Testament method of knowing the will of God. And God honored it. It was legitimate in the choosing of the disciple who was to replace Matthias because the Holy Spirit had not yet come. We do not use it today because we have the Holy Spirit.

No, it is not my opinion that Paul was not one of the twelve disciples. It is the testimony of Scripture. (Acts 2:14) "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,...." This statement is made after the selection by lot of Matthias. Peter plus the eleven makes twelve. Paul was not one of the twelve.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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with respect i dont think your understanding what i am asking. let me try another way. why are the works of Paul in our bible?

if his gospel was the same what difference would it make who he was preaching to?
if Paul says "you will have life in His name"
and James says "you will have life in His name"
does the teaching change whether its Paul or James saying it?
Your question about why Paul's writings are in the bible, is not clear. It is the word of God for these times (the times of the gentiles). But, it would seem that instead of a question, you have a point you would like to make. If that is so, then please make your point.

As for the same gospel going out to two different groups, the message to both is: Go with God. But to the first who are last, their journey and experience is unto death in Christ, and to the last who are first, their journey and experience is unto life in Christ until the end, and then there shall be one flock and One Shepherd.
 
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jaybird

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Well answered. Nor can I speak for them. However, you no doubt have some opinions. At least with regard to some.
mainstream modern day theologians are IMO in a lukewarm state. some know there is new knowledge or the faith is going a bad direction and turn a blind eye, some pat themselves on the back saying all is well, then there are a small few that think there may be problems, go back to the early days and study it , find problems and are mocked and ridiculed by the mainstream.
edit - there are plenty of mainstreamers that are IMO good people, not patting themselves on the back, and not turning a blind eye to anything, they may be in a lukewarm state but are only there because thats all they are taught.


I don't know. It is not a question IMO that any of us can answer of a certainty one way or the other. However, I do know human nature, and how impetuous we can be, running ahead, without waiting upon YHVH (cf Isa 40:31; Lam 3:25).
running ahead? would this be what i call mankind always taking things to far, such as the french revolution, a great idea, something had to be done, the people stood up, united, changed things, but in the end the new leaders were just as rotten as the old ones. mankind does this all the time in every walk of life. i see the church doing this with doctrine after doctrine. we have so many doctrines explaining every scripture we cant think much less let the spirit guide us, the man made doctrines do it all for us.


Understood. I just couldn't resist picking on you a little.
no worries, i will have to get you back on that one.


Which is good to hear. I have spent time amoungst those of the anti-Pauline persuasion and heard their "arguments". It was actually a great experience. Imagine trying to debate someone and not being able to use Luke, or any of Paul's writings in your response or to make a point. Debating them only using the "books" that they accept as "Scripture".
and there are some that take this to far calling Paul a false teacher. the only way to make this work is to say Paul was teaching something Jesus never taught. i dont think Paul did. there was a false teacher in the days of Paul, the Nazerenes and Essenes both mention him, but who he was is speculation. if it was really Paul he would have had to be teasching something that was on the other side of the spectrum, something that would lead people away from Christ, i just dont see it.



Ok, I can see and hear your point. I agree, it would be nice to hear more from others. However, we have what we have been given. I once asked questions not unlike what you ask here. I was assured not of men, that we have what we need. Read it, learn it ...

I have read most of the "lost" books, apocryphal books, etc. over the years. Be grounded before you delve too deeply into any of them, or before you make decisions based upon that which you read in them or allow them to sway you. I have seen too many make "doctrines" based upon such and fall prey to the adversary.

May YHVH bless you in your search.

there are lots of books that that were out there at the time, James quotes some that are completely unknown. i think there is much valuable information to be found, Jesus said the Pharisees hid knowledge, we know the church for many years made bibles unavailable to common folks and we know Satan is powerful in this world.
i used to worry myself silly over reading non canon books, Jesus taught ask seek knock and you will be lead right where you need to be, now i put faith in that teaching and dont worry about it.
 
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ScottA

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mainstream modern day theologians are IMO in a lukewarm state. some know there is new knowledge or the faith is going a bad direction and turn a blind eye, some pat themselves on the back saying all is well, then there are a small few that think there may be problems, go back to the early days and study it , find problems and are mocked and ridiculed by the mainstream.
edit - there are plenty of mainstreamers that are IMO good people, not patting themselves on the back, and not turning a blind eye to anything, they may be in a lukewarm state but are only there because thats all they are taught.
True. This is a type of blindness, not unlike the blindness placed upon Israel until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.
 
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bbyrd009

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you either believe you need money to survive or you do not imo, and you can't fool God by declaring for one and demonstrating faith in the other, no matter how hard you try
 

jaybird

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True. This is a type of blindness, not unlike the blindness placed upon Israel until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

kinda like the blindness put on so many Christians?
Jews were more than happy to follow Jesus and James in the beginning. it wasnt until rome takes over the faith we see a divider put up and two different faiths.
 
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Helen

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kinda like the blindness put on so many Christians?
Jews were more than happy to follow Jesus and James in the beginning. it wasnt until rome takes over the faith we see a divider put up and two different faiths.

YOU may "see it" I do not..they go hand in glove..
 

ScottA

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kinda like the blindness put on so many Christians?
Jews were more than happy to follow Jesus and James in the beginning. it wasnt until rome takes over the faith we see a divider put up and two different faiths.
The blindness placed upon Israel, was place on Israel and not on Christians...which was done to prolong the times, until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

The blindness placed upon Christians, has been the result of preferring to believe a lie: that Christ would come again in the flesh in the distant future, rather than "quickly" and "in the glory of God the Father" whom is spirit.
 
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mjrhealth

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i dont think Jesus was bringing in something new, IMO Jesus was bringing back the true way which the current way had fallen away from. from a pharisee/zealot point of view it would probably look like something new. there were other sects at the time of Jesus that were already teaching this new covenant theology however they didnt throw out the old covenant.


this is the account according to Paul. where do we have Jesus teaching of this future teacher called Paul? also in this account Paul is never named one of the 12.
i like Paul and would never want his teachings removed, there is much value in them. my issue is with the other teachers like Paul whos works were thrown out based on the fact they were not one of the 12. make sense


if i dont agree it does not mean you are wrong or i think your wrong, more like a different perspective.
Than if this is your point of view, it all ended when the last disciple died, and God just stopped. Saul/Paul was an example made to us, He was a learned man, a pharisee, and He relied upon pleasing men, teh worst case scenario. With all HE had, he was blind, so many on this forum just like him. Christ came and showed him, like so many, that he was persecuting Him, " Jesus", that bit about,

Mat_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus blinded Him to show that He was blind than His eyes where opened, that veil that is upon the eyes of so many who dont want the truth, yet claim they do. Paul was the best one to show to the religious the new covenant, because he was a supporter of the old , and was created under the old.

Luk_5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

So many still putting themselves under a covenant that was never given to us.
 

Richard_oti

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mainstream modern day theologians are IMO in a lukewarm state.

Which, is not a good place to be per Revelation.


<small snip>
then there are a small few that think there may be problems, go back to the early days and study it , find problems and are mocked and ridiculed by the mainstream.

Indeed.


edit - there are plenty of mainstreamers that are IMO good people, not patting themselves on the back, and not turning a blind eye to anything, they may be in a lukewarm state but are only there because thats all they are taught.

Once upon a time, I asked a Pastor regarding a certain issue. He admitted that the issue I raised was correct, yet preached the "mainstream" message the very next sermon.


running ahead? would this be what i call mankind always taking things to far,

Yes, you could definitely liken it to as much IMO. Allow me to loosely liken such to the Israelites attempting to cross the "Red Sea" before Moses lifted his arms.


such as the french revolution, a great idea, something had to be done, the people stood up, united, changed things, but in the end the new leaders were just as rotten as the old ones. mankind does this all the time in every walk of life.

Indeed.


i see the church doing this with doctrine after doctrine. we have so many doctrines explaining every scripture we cant think much less let the spirit guide us, the man made doctrines do it all for us.

And if you do not or can not accept one (or more) of those "doctrines", you are labelled a hairy-tick and are "unsaved".

<small snip>


and there are some that take this to far calling Paul a false teacher. the only way to make this work is to say Paul was teaching something Jesus never taught. i dont think Paul did. there was a false teacher in the days of Paul, the Nazerenes and Essenes both mention him, but who he was is speculation. if it was really Paul he would have had to be teasching something that was on the other side of the spectrum, something that would lead people away from Christ, i just dont see it.

Agreed. They use the apparent contradictions in the accounts of Saul's conversion amoung a myriad of other "apparent" contradictions.


there are lots of books that that were out there at the time, James quotes some that are completely unknown.

Indeed.

Jude in v9 cites the "Assumption of Moses" and quotes "Enoch".


i think there is much valuable information to be found, Jesus said the Pharisees hid knowledge, we know the church for many years made bibles unavailable to common folks and we know Satan is powerful in this world.
i used to worry myself silly over reading non canon books, Jesus taught ask seek knock and you will be lead right where you need to be, now i put faith in that teaching and dont worry about it.

Well said.
 
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