WHAT Is the Trinity?

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GodsGrace

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The Triune Godhead, or Trinity can be explained in different ways.

Some understand the 3 persons to be equal in standing.
Some believe they are not.

Some do not even believe in the Triune Godhead or Trinity.

1. Is it necessary to believe it to be saved?

2. How do YOU understand the Trinity? Or perhaps you don't?

I would hope that this would allow some to share their feelings regarding this very difficult subject and one which, in reality, no one really understands.
 
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tabletalk

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The Triune Godhead, or Trinity can be explained in different ways.

Some understand the 3 persons to be equal in standing.
Some believe they are not.

Some to not even believe in the Triune Godhead or Trinity.

1. Is it necessary to believe it to be saved?

2. How do YOU understand the Trinity? Or perhaps you don't?

I would hope that this would allow some to share their feelings regarding this very difficult subject and one which, in reality, no one really understands.


O.K. I suggest that the first(?) truth should be that there is only one God.

And I offer this one quote from Matthew 28, as one *proof* for the doctrine of the Triune Godhead:

19. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,.."
*name* is singular.
 

GodsGrace

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O.K. I suggest that the first(?) truth should be that there is only one God.

And I offer this one quote from Matthew 28, as one *proof* for the doctrine of the Triune Godhead:

19. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,.."
*name* is singular.
Perfect.
This is MY favorite scripture also, though there are many more.

Those that believe there are THREE PERSONS with ONE GOD in them, are really saying there are three Gods.

I like to say that there is ONE GOD with three persons in HIM.

A "person" is an individual and separate "being" with His own attributes.

Somewhere along the line we should get into the Nicene Creed...
 
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breathofdesire

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The Triune Godhead, or Trinity can be explained in different ways.

Some understand the 3 persons to be equal in standing.
Some believe they are not.

Some to not even believe in the Triune Godhead or Trinity.

1. Is it necessary to believe it to be saved?

2. How do YOU understand the Trinity? Or perhaps you don't?

I would hope that this would allow some to share their feelings regarding this very difficult subject and one which, in reality, no one really understands.
3 mechanisms in the same spirit.
 
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breathofdesire

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Would you care to say what each mechanism is for?
I couldn't say Grace, because there's so much more to God I don't know.

But I do know that the Bible calls God as a spirit primarily. So I think that if God is father, son and holy ghost, then all these three thing's make up his spirit.

As far as I understand, I think of them as mechanism's, because they all have a purpose to the whole of God.
 

amadeus

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The Triune Godhead, or Trinity can be explained in different ways.

Some understand the 3 persons to be equal in standing.
Some believe they are not.

Some do not even believe in the Triune Godhead or Trinity.

1. Is it necessary to believe it to be saved?

Looking only at your first numbered question. Why is it necessary to believe something not clearly spelled out in scripture or in our heart? I see the possibilities and the support for a belief in a trinity, or not, in scripture. I have yet to hear anyone provide a good answer to your question number 1. You just have to believe because...

I have for many years supported the latter, but I started with the former [trinitarian] without the use of scripture.

When I attended elementary school in very small mission town in California I attended catechism weekly during "religious release" time from public schools. I remember the nun showing us a large picture of a three leaf clover and using it to explain that there were three persons in the One God: the Father, the Son [Jesus] and the Holy Ghost. No scriptures were read at the time. I always loved and respected the nuns who taught as well as the two primary priests who said masses in that first RCC mission [San Juan Bautista]. As a devout altar boy I believed their words were effectively "gospel" although I wouldn't have used that expression at the time. I believed in my teachers and what they taught without any doubts. I only wanted to learn more. My plans were to become a priest so that I could read the Bible. Reading of the Bible was discouraged in that church so I never did read it. I only knew of scripture the few verses that the priests read in English for their sermons. The major part of the mass itself was conducted in Latin.

My next thoughts on what people call the "godhead" occurred in 1976 when I was drawn into the UPC [United Pentecostal Church] the largest Oneness Jesus Only organization. The man who along with his wife brought into God with their witness [not merely with words, but with lives lived] was a Bible man. He knew and loved the Bible and taught me many things that no other minister or pastor or preacher anywhere before had been able to do. Primarily, however, he had charity and lived charity. From him more than any other person I learned the Oneness Jesus Only doctrine.
This is stated simply in a song we used to sing when we were among them:

"Jesus is the name of the Father, Jesus is the name of the Son, Jesus is the name of the Holy Ghost and all these three are one"

My first pastor in the UPC said more than once that his "sugar daddy" verse was this one:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

He was not the only one. As I recall most of the ministers and preachers I heard among those people frequently references that verse, especially when visitors were present. They wanted all the trinitarians to be converted to oneness.

After 11 years in oneness God sent me looking for something else. I could not find it, but it, or God, found me.
 
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GodsGrace

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I couldn't say Grace, because there's so much more to God I don't know.

But I do know that the Bible calls God as a spirit primarily. So I think that if God is father, son and holy ghost, then all these three thing's make up his spirit.

As far as I understand, I think of them as mechanism's, because they all have a purpose to the whole of God.
Who could understand God?
God's mind is not our mind.
1 Corinthians 2:11

As far as mechanisms go, it's a good way to describe it. I believe we each must come to our own understanding.

You said God is spirit, and that these three things make up His spirit.

How's this:
God is Spirit.
He became flesh when Jesus was born.
Jesus is God in the flesh.
God is Spirit, but Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit when He left. In fact, He said if He did NOT leave, the Holy Spirit could not come to be with us.

Since Jesus, as man, could not be omnipresent, it was good that HE should leave, and the Holy Spirit come to dwell in us.
John 16:7

Jesus had completed His mission as Savior - He gave His life on the cross.
Now it was time for the Holy Spirit to come as Helper and paraclete.
This shows attributes: One for Jesus, the Son, and one for the Holy Spirit.

As you stated, each person of the Holy Trinity has their particular "work" and "job".
Each one has their particular "attribute".

God Father: The Creator, the Almighty Spirit
God Jesus: The One who created, the Rhema (breath) of God, The Savior, our
example, and God "seen".
God Holy Spirit: God indwelling, our helper, our conscience (convictor), our
paraclete.
 

lforrest

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I am not a stickler for people believing the Trinity. I consider the early church and even the apostles learned of the nature of God though they didn't put a name to it.

They all started by believing there is one God in heaven. I'm sure they thought the cloud over the Arc in the temple was the same God. Then through personal revelation they learned Jesus is God with us. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter seems to grasp the Holy Spirit's deity well.

So they knew the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. Later the church was like... let's give that relationship a name, and call it the Trinity.

There is also the oneness doctrine that doesn't deny the diety of these 'persons' of the Godhead. Though I assume the oneness pentecostals wouldn't call them persons. Six of one half a dozen of the other.

What's important IMO is the original simplistic understanding the church father's had. You must believe Jesus is THE Lord, and not a mere human lord. You must also receive the Holy Spirit and respect him as Holy.

Many cults deny the diety of Jesus Christ. They also deny the indwelling Holy Spirit. That should open your eyes to the tactics of the enemy who wants to destroy you. If they can keep the presence of God from you (The Holy Spirit) you are not marked as God's among other serious implications, such as being unable to pray in the Spirit and remaining spiritually dead. If Jesus is not God, that is a different Jesus.
 
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twinc

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I am not a stickler for people believing the Trinity. I consider the early church and even the apostles learned of the nature of God though they didn't put a name to it.

They all started by believing there is one God in heaven. I'm sure they thought the cloud over the Arc in the temple was the same God. Then through personal revelation they learned Jesus is God with us. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter seems to grasp the Holy Spirit's deity well.

So they knew the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. Later the church was like... let's give that relationship a name, and call it the Trinity.

There is also the oneness doctrine that doesn't deny the diety of these 'persons' of the Godhead. Though I assume the oneness pentecostals wouldn't call them persons. Six of one half a dozen of the other.

What's important IMO is the original simplistic understanding the church father's had. You must believe Jesus is THE Lord, and not a mere human lord. You must also receive the Holy Spirit and respect him as Holy.

Many cults deny the diety of Jesus Christ. They also deny the indwelling Holy Spirit. That should open your eyes to the tactics of the enemy who wants to destroy you. If they can keep the presence of God from you (The Holy Spirit) you are not marked as God's among other serious implications, such as being unable to pray in the Spirit and remaining spiritually dead. If Jesus is not God, that is a different Jesus.


it seems everyone even finds 1x1x1 = 1 difficult to understand and so it is and can be but it is so - for we are told he who does not have the father does not have the son but he who has the son has the father also and it follows that he who has the father and the son has the Holy Spirit also - twinc
 
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GodsGrace

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it seems everyone even finds 1x1x1 = 1 difficult to understand and so it is and can be but it is so - for we are told he who does not have the father does not have the son but he who has the son has the father also and it follows that he who has the father and the son has the Holy Spirit also - twinc
What about the math?
Should it be 1+1+1 = 1 ??
 

Truth

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The Triune Godhead, or Trinity can be explained in different ways.

Some understand the 3 persons to be equal in standing.
Some believe they are not.

Some do not even believe in the Triune Godhead or Trinity.

1. Is it necessary to believe it to be saved?

2. How do YOU understand the Trinity? Or perhaps you don't?

I would hope that this would allow some to share their feelings regarding this very difficult subject and one which, in reality, no one really understands.

Genesis 18: 1
Then the LORD appeared to Him [ Abraham ] by the terebinth trees of Mam're, as He was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2- "So He lifted his eyes and looked, and Behold, Three men were standing by Him; and when He saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground.
3- and Said, MY LORD, if I have now found favor in Your Sight, do not pass on by your Servant.
16- Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sod'om, and Abraham went with them to send them on their way.
17- And the Lord said shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?
were these Three all the LORD, This I can not be sure of, but it is Three that come before Abraham, shortly after the Covenant of Circumcision was established!
Also I believe that in the KJV it says shall We hide from Abraham what we are about to do ??? Not Sure!! I have a NKJV.
 

101G

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Who could understand God?
God's mind is not our mind.
1 Corinthians 2:11.
But we do have the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ". stop and think for a moment, who is Christ, scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." is not Christ THE Spirit, scripture, 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow". now are there two Spirits? let's see. Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". so GodsGrace, you now have the mind of God, (meaning the scriptures) are there two Spirits?.
 

101G

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How's this:
God is Spirit.
He became flesh when Jesus was born.
Jesus is God in the flesh.
God is Spirit, but Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit when He left. In fact, He said if He did NOT leave, the Holy Spirit could not come to be with us.

Since Jesus, as man, could not be omnipresent, it was good that HE should leave, and the Holy Spirit come to dwell in us.
John 16:7

Jesus had completed His mission as Savior - He gave His life on the cross.
Now it was time for the Holy Spirit to come as Helper and paraclete.
This shows attributes: One for Jesus, the Son, and one for the Holy Spirit.
#1. "God is Spirit". √ check, correct
#2. "He became flesh when Jesus was born". X, ERROR. Jesus was never born, but was given. Christ, the Messiah, the son of God was "BORN".
#3. "Jesus is God in the flesh" √ check, correct
#4. "God is Spirit, but Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit when He left. In fact, He said if He did NOT leave, the Holy Spirit could not come to be with us". √ check, correct, but do you really understand what you just said?.
#5. "Since Jesus, as man, could not be omnipresent, it was good that HE should leave, and the Holy Spirit come to dwell in us". as man √ check, correct. but is not our Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit? see 1John 2:1 and look up what an advocate is..... ;)

be blessed
 

GodsGrace

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#1. "God is Spirit". √ check, correct
#2. "He became flesh when Jesus was born". X, ERROR. Jesus was never born, but was given. Christ, the Messiah, the son of God was "BORN".
#3. "Jesus is God in the flesh" √ check, correct
#4. "God is Spirit, but Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit when He left. In fact, He said if He did NOT leave, the Holy Spirit could not come to be with us". √ check, correct, but do you really understand what you just said?.
#5. "Since Jesus, as man, could not be omnipresent, it was good that HE should leave, and the Holy Spirit come to dwell in us". as man √ check, correct. but is not our Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit? see 1John 2:1 and look up what an advocate is..... ;)

be blessed
Well 101
I'll be sure to check and find out what an advocate is.
I'm sorry you didn't just say so for those reading along.

Regarding no. 2:
Are Jesus, Christ, the Messiah, and the Son of God and/or Man
all the same person?

Was He not born of a woman called Mary?

Are you getting the second person of the Trinity, called The Word mixed up with Jesus, who was BORN 2,000 years ago?

And Isaiah 9:6
says:
"a child will be born to us"
and
"a SON will be given".

God sent HIS ONLY SON. (Gave Him to us)
But He had to be born as a child...
 
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GodsGrace

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But we do have the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ". stop and think for a moment, who is Christ, scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." is not Christ THE Spirit, scripture, 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow". now are there two Spirits? let's see. Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". so GodsGrace, you now have the mind of God, (meaning the scriptures) are there two Spirits?.
I agree that we must be able to understand Jesus.
He came here SPECIFICALLY so that we may understand HIM and bring us God's message.

The reason Jesus had to come here to us is because we CANNOT understand GOD. I was referring to God in my post, not Jesus.

I sure hope you don't post that you understand God !
I'd have a few questions for you.

BTW, thanks for using scripture.
 

101G

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Regarding no. 2:
Are Jesus, Christ, the Messiah, and the Son of God and/or Man
all the same person?
Ok, GodsGrace I'll treat you as a sister now, because you seek a true discussion instead of arguing.
let's discuss this one point at a time. I have copied you post for continued discussion.
You have the inner man, and the outward man, scripture, 2 Corinthians 4:16 "For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day". one more. Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man". the inward man is spirit, in our Lord case is called the son of man. this is who came down from heaven, scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." which is not born, but Given of God. all spirits are given at birth by God (Isaiah 42:5). no woman cannot birth a spirit, nothing there to push out, spirit is "GIVEN" from God which returns after death.

now our Outward man is our FLESH, in the case of our Lord as well as us, THE SON OF GOD, which is birthed, meaning a body that is produce (in our Lord's case), and reproduce in our case. that, yes, a woman can bring forth or give birth to. son of God is flesh, scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". so the son of God that flesh that vesture is born, but the son of MAN is given. let's check the record and be sure, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". see that? A CHILD/FLESH is born. a SON/SPIRIT is given. now no where in the scriptures do the son of man get crossed up with the son of God.... (smile). son of God "OUTWARD" man, son of man" INWARD" man.

so now you may reply. if not we will move on to your #2.
 

GodsGrace

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Ok, GodsGrace I'll treat you as a sister now, because you seek a true discussion instead of arguing.
let's discuss this one point at a time. I have copied you post for continued discussion.
You have the inner man, and the outward man, scripture, 2 Corinthians 4:16 "For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day". one more. Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man". the inward man is spirit, in our Lord case is called the son of man. this is who came down from heaven, scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." which is not born, but Given of God. all spirits are given at birth by God (Isaiah 42:5). no woman cannot birth a spirit, nothing there to push out, spirit is "GIVEN" from God which returns after death.

now our Outward man is our FLESH, in the case of our Lord as well as us, THE SON OF GOD, which is birthed, meaning a body that is produce (in our Lord's case), and reproduce in our case. that, yes, a woman can bring forth or give birth to. son of God is flesh, scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". so the son of God that flesh that vesture is born, but the son of MAN is given. let's check the record and be sure, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". see that? A CHILD/FLESH is born. a SON/SPIRIT is given. now no where in the scriptures do the son of man get crossed up with the son of God.... (smile). son of God "OUTWARD" man, son of man" INWARD" man.

so now you may reply. if not we will move on to your #2.
I never like to argue.
I'm no longer at my computer and am very limited.
Regarding the above...
I don't see the difference between what I said and what you're saying...

Could you tell me the difference?