WHAT Is the Trinity?

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GodsGrace

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@GG, first thanks for the thumbs up. I know that you hold to the Nicene Creed. that's ok, it's always good to stand for something instead of falling for anything. in my theology, my, so called, to say, Nicene Creed, is Genesis 1:1. here is where I really learned who the Father and the Son really is, and started my quest in diversity. not two separate persons but "a" one being who shared himself in flesh, which was to come in the NT. The OT and the NT is so tied together, I look at them as such. the OT is the NT hidden. and the NT is the OT revealed. when I learned that, the bible open up to me. just as he did in Genesis 1:1 the Lord Jesus revealed to me his TITLES, not his person(s), but HIS Titles. the "Aleph" and the "Tav", Hebrew, or the First and the Last, English, and the Alpha and the Omega, Greek. all right there in Genesis 1:1. see, it's nothing NEW under the sun. his doctrine have been there all alone. so what I teach is nothing NEW. it's only new to many, because they just haven't heard the TRUTH before from the beginning. to really understand God and know of him, ask the Holy Spirit/JESUS to reveal himself to you in the scriptures. he's faithful.

men make a lot of Laws, creeds, and doctrines. there is nothing wrong with any, but make sure it's correct. so, study the record call Genesis, it contain so much truth that have not yet been discovered, it will blow your mind. but likewise it will set you correctly to navigate the word of God correctly. get it right in the beginning, then one will know where they are at in the end.

Peace in Christ Jesus.
I've said many times that it's really difficult to speak of spiritual things.

The way you describe Jesus above sounds right.
He is not a separate person as if there were two God's.
He's separate in that He has His own attributes and work to do.
But, yes, He was IN God and then He got a body when He was born of Mary.

I THINK that's what you said !
 

101G

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The way you describe Jesus above sounds right.
He is not a separate person as if there were two God's.
He's separate in that He has His own attributes and work to do.
But, yes, He was IN God and then He got a body when He was born of Mary.

I THINK that's what you said !
NO, this is not what I'am saying. understand this. the difference in my belief and yours is this, the "SHARING" of oneself VS separation in PERSONS. this is the crust of the matter. see the conjunction "and" reveals it perfectly, when it comes to the revealing of the Godhead. example, Titus 2:10 "Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things". here, many say this is just the Son. now same book same chapter, Titus 2:13 father and the "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". many say this is the Father and the Son. Ok this, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world". here you have God "and" the Father. is this one and the same person or two person, before you answer, 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". here we have God the Father "AND" the Lord Jesus the Christ. but remember James 1:27 "God and the Father
 

VictoryinJesus

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First,please get a KJV.. (smile). Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him".
Meet: H5828 עֵזֶר `ezer (ay'-zer) n-m.
aid.
[from H5826]
Ok, VJ, what is an AID, NOTICE it's a NOUN. if one look it up aid, as a NOUN, it means help, typically of a practical nature. What is another word for aid? assistance. knowing this we have a someone who is ANOTHER of the same, here in Genesis 2:18, meaning ANOTHER MAN, or an ADAM. let's see what Adam means,
ADAM H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low
see how Adam or man can be translated as? yes, "ANOTHER" this is what an ezer is.
What is another word for aid?

and this ezer is the the IMAGE of God, "ANOTHER".

HOPE THIS HELP




Can you expand further?

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
[14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 8:8 KJV
[8] And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

IMMA (אמא): Hebrew name meaning "mother."

Strong's Hebrew: 517. אֵם (em) -- a mother

From the Hebrew name עִמָּנוּאֵל ('Immanu'el) meaning "God is with us". This was the foretold name of the Messiah in the Old Testament. It has been used in England since the 16th century in the spellings Emmanuel and Immanuel, though it has not been widespread.

What does the village Emmaus
Have to do with birth and deliverance? Luke 24:10-32 KJV
[10] It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. [11] And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. [12] Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. [13] And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. [14] And they talked together of all these things which had happened. [15] And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. [16] But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. [17] And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? [18] And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? [19] And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: [20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. [21] But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. [22] Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; [23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. [24] And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. [25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: [26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? [27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. [28] And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. [29] But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. [30] And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it , and brake, and gave to them. [31] And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. [32] And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


Where does Noel come from? Tradition? I don't see it in His word?
 
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101G

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Can you expand further?

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
[14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 8:8 KJV
[8] And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

IMMA (אמא): Hebrew name meaning "mother."

Strong's Hebrew: 517. אֵם (em) -- a mother

From the Hebrew name עִמָּנוּאֵל ('Immanu'el) meaning "God is with us". This was the foretold name of the Messiah in the Old Testament. It has been used in England since the 16th century in the spellings Emmanuel and Immanuel, though it has not been widespread.

What does the village Emmaus
Have to do with birth and deliverance? Luke 24:10-32 KJV
[10] It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. [11] And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. [12] Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. [13] And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. [14] And they talked together of all these things which had happened. [15] And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. [16] But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. [17] And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? [18] And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? [19] And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: [20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. [21] But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. [22] Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; [23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. [24] And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. [25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: [26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? [27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. [28] And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. [29] But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. [30] And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it , and brake, and gave to them. [31] And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. [32] And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


Where does Noel come from? Tradition? I don't see it in His word?
GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the response. I'll try to answer your Immanuel question.
"Isaiah 7:14 KJV [14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel".
in respect to the name "Immanuel" as concering the virgin, it's not the Lord's PERSONAL NAME. Immanuel Identify what is with us and not WHO is with us, JESUS. can we prove this from the OT scriptures of prophecy? yes. if you will turn your attention you the book of Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones". please notice the two words in red, "man" and "fellow". everyone knows the cross reference is Matthews 26:31, and Mark 14:27. this is speaking of the Lord Jesus the Christ. but what's revealing here is the word "FELLOW". in the Hebrew it is,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.
see how the KJV can translate it?. this fellow of God, this man, is the "another" of God. that Child, that Son of Isaiah 9:6 is the "Immanuel" GOD that came in flesh which was "with us". here's is the clarity on ANOTHER. MAN, or ADAM, (mankind) is H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being. an individual or the species, mankind. from H119
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
there's that word again, "ANOTHER". Adam is "ANOTHER" of himself, supportive scripture, Genesis 5:1 & 2 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". both had the NAME ADAM which identified what they were, and not who they were. this is very important. now, knowing that, back to this "FELLOW" who is God's "ANOTHER". in the Greek, the word for ANOTHER is, G243 & G2087 ,allos & heteros respectively. both have difference in meaning. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another" of a different sort.

so VictoryinJesus, know what a numerical difference is "of" the SAME "sort"? 1, 2 ect..., who is of the same source. better know as DIFFERENTIATION. see the Lord Jesus share, or the numerical difference of God in Spirit as a man, this is the "ANOTHER" of God in flesh, "Immanuel". (see Phil 2:6 and root out the word Morphe G3444). this should answer your "Immanuel" question completly.

read the post again to get the meat for clarity. peace in Christ Jesus.
 

Richard_oti

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<snip>
*
Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly.

. . . . . . .. . . . . ~
End Quote ~ .. . .

Thank you for sharing that. It is important imso to realize and know from whence things come.
 

Richard_oti

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i guess "Twoness" people point out that Christ had to leave in order for the Holy Spirit to come, even. PErsonally it all strikes me as vanity, debating how many gods can dance on the head of a pin or something. Trying to define God or whatever.

Yes, I realize I am late to the party.

The reason behind:

Num 11:16 And YHVH said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tent of meeting, that they may stand there with thee. 17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Why does "God" need to take in order to give?


Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Because:

Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father to have all His fullness dwell in him.
 
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Richard_oti

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<snip>
Son of Man and The light

GodsGrace wrote:
"I think he's just stating that He's the light."

<snip>

iow you are being invited to assume that Jesus was stating that He is the light, but then you have a logical conundrum, <snip>

From John, it's pretty clear that Jesus is the Light, the Light of the World...
John even seems to perhaps pattern his opening after Genesis.

So, what was the "light" of Genesis 1:3?



2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made
his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the
glory of God in the face of Christ.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Why does John pattern his opening after Genesis?


Yeah, I know, curiosity killed the cat. Luckily, they have nine lives. Just as should someone hurt my feelings, luckily I have a lot of them <grin>.
 

bbyrd009

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I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Why does "God" need to take in order to give?
hmm, great Q! my initial response is that that may be read differently, and God might be saying there "I will take of the same spirit which is upon thee," iow just a descriptor of what spirit.
 

bbyrd009

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Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Because:

Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father to have all His fullness dwell in him.
i see where you're going here, and while i can't argue the point really, this seems limiting to the Spirit to me, and i would interpret the John 16 passage differently, in light of many other vv implying that the Spirit was also elsewhere at the time of Christ, in John Baptist, and Saul/Paul, etc. Which i understand is debateable.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

this might be more about providing a graceful exit for Christ than dividing the Spirit, iow.
 

bbyrd009

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From John, it's pretty clear that Jesus is the Light, the Light of the World...
John even seems to perhaps pattern his opening after Genesis.

So, what was the "light" of Genesis 1:3?



2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made
his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the
glory of God in the face of Christ.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Why does John pattern his opening after Genesis?


Yeah, I know, curiosity killed the cat. Luckily, they have nine lives. Just as should someone hurt my feelings, luckily I have a lot of them <grin>.
Word!
 
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amadeus

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Yes, I realize I am late to the party.

The reason behind:

Num 11:16 And YHVH said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tent of meeting, that they may stand there with thee. 17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Why does "God" need to take in order to give?

Perhaps we are simply talking about sharing what is "good" which we know is God. What has God given to any of us is our connection with and through Jesus, is it not? How do we share the Light which is now in us? As the old man of us decreases and the new man of us increases, it should be easier to do. Not because there is more available, but because their is less opposition.
 

Richard_oti

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hmm, great Q! my initial response is that that may be read differently, and God might be saying there "I will take of the same spirit which is upon thee," iow just a descriptor of what spirit.

That is a possibility. Also see v25.
 

Richard_oti

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i see where you're going here, and while i can't argue the point really, this seems limiting to the Spirit to me, and i would interpret the John 16 passage differently, in light of many other vv implying that the Spirit was also elsewhere at the time of Christ, in John Baptist, and Saul/Paul, etc. Which i understand is debateable.

You had mentioned "twoness", and that is part of the reasoning behind it. I do not fully know what they exactly believe / doctrine (if there is one). Remember, JtB was beheaded, and Saul / Paul had not yet had his Damascus road experience.
 
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Richard_oti

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Perhaps we are simply talking about sharing what is "good" which we know is God. What has God given to any of us is our connection with and through Jesus, is it not? How do we share the Light which is now in us? As the old man of us decreases and the new man of us increases, it should be easier to do. Not because there is more available, but because their is less opposition.

That also is a possibility.
 

Richard_oti

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ah, nice. I note that the YLT is not agreeing with me; prolly not a good sign...
Hey, at least it was a possibility. I didn't see it in Hebrew as the verb conjugation in v25 is the binyan Hiphil 3rd person; he withdrew. But, my Hebrew is so rusty, that it is practically non-existent.