Why water into wine?

[pia]

I'm not trying to fight with you, Pia.
I'm trying to get to the bottom of some of your statements.

You just said: "According to Him, His Church is made up of those who believe "
Can you show me where the Bible makes this claim??

James 2:19 sates that even the DEMONS believe in God and and tremble.
Are THEY part of the Church?

Also - you keep pitting the Church against Jesus - Scripture against Jesus.
Jesus IS the Word.
The Church IS Jesus on earth.
Jesus equates Himself with His Church - therefore, it is wrong of you do do this.

I have answered all that in the past, except the ludicrous notion that demons are part of Christs church.
If His church is NOT made up of those who believe in Him, who do you think is a part of His church? What a curious statement...
I am certain there are references in the Bible about believers being His church, you seem to know it inside out, but whether it is or isn't, I was certainly not going to say to His face that I didn't believe Him, when he explained that.
I pit men's inventions against what He has told me, NOT EVER His Church, which is Gods precious children and Jesus' Bride to be.
I believe that if you had truly read what I wrote in the beginning, we wouldn't be having this silly back and forth like a broken record....
Jesus is THE WORD of God, that I have also stated many times, Jesus can't be against Jesus..Why do you keep saying that I do that? Again proves that you have indeed NOT read the things I wrote.
I told you before, I believe Him over any amount of books or men's opinions, so when He told me that His Church is made up of those who believe, that settled it for me forever more.
You wrote Jesus equates Himself with His church, are you saying He is going to marry Himself????
If you still don't see where I am coming from, I suggest we leave it be, as this is just so silly, or are you just doing it, so I will respond. We could have had a much better 'relationship' here, if you had not constantly argued against anyone who knows from revelation...You revere Peter so, He had revelation. Why do you not believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever ? What He was able to do then, he can do now, so why try to limit Him all the time?
Anyway BOL I will leave it there, and thank you for having stopped your heavy handedness, that is much appreciated.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Catholic Church didn't steal authority. The Roman Church did.

"Catholic" by default means "Roman" now, doesn't it? Even if that was not true once, it seems to be now

 

[Stranger]

"Catholic" by default means "Roman" now, doesn't it? Even if that was not true once, it seems to be now

Only if you want to believe a lie. The phrase in the Apostles Creed, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church: the communion of Saints", is not talking about the Roman Church. It is talking about the universal church of Jesus Christ. But believe whatever you like, you like to make up things anyway.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Only if you want to believe a lie. The phrase in the Apostles Creed, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church: the communion of Saints", is not talking about the Roman Church. It is talking about the universal church of Jesus Christ.

regardless, the Romans have now appropriated the term, and "Catholic" no longer means anything but Roman Catholic to pretty much anyone you might have a conversation with, even if i agree with you.

Where exactly is the Apostles' Creed in the Book, anyway? Lol, exactly.
But then you like to believe stuff other men made up anyway i guess

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have answered all that in the past, except the ludicrous notion that demons are part of Christs church.
If His church is NOT made up of those who believe in Him, who do you think is a part of His church? What a curious statement...
I am certain there are references in the Bible about believers being His church, you seem to know it inside out, but whether it is or isn't, I was certainly not going to say to His face that I didn't believe Him, when he explained that.
I pit men's inventions against what He has told me, NOT EVER His Church, which is Gods precious children and Jesus' Bride to be.
I believe that if you had truly read what I wrote in the beginning, we wouldn't be having this silly back and forth like a broken record....
Jesus is THE WORD of God, that I have also stated many times, Jesus can't be against Jesus..Why do you keep saying that I do that? Again proves that you have indeed NOT read the things I wrote.
I told you before, I believe Him over any amount of books or men's opinions, so when He told me that His Church is made up of those who believe, that settled it for me forever more.
You wrote Jesus equates Himself with His church, are you saying He is going to marry Himself????
If you still don't see where I am coming from, I suggest we leave it be, as this is just so silly, or are you just doing it, so I will respond. We could have had a much better 'relationship' here, if you had not constantly argued against anyone who knows from revelation...You revere Peter so, He had revelation. Why do you not believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever ? What He was able to do then, he can do now, so why try to limit Him all the time?
Anyway BOL I will leave it there, and thank you for having stopped your heavy handedness, that is much appreciated.

Just one last thing.
Just as a married man and woman are ONE - so is Christ and His Church.

All those who "believe" in Christ are not part of His Church. All those who believe and OBEY Him and are baptized are part of His Church.
God demands obedience - not just "belief" - so, when you say that Jesus told you that all who simply "believe" are part of His Church, you are going against the Word of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only if you want to believe a lie. The phrase in the Apostles Creed, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church: the communion of Saints", is not talking about the Roman Church. It is talking about the universal church of Jesus Christ. But believe whatever you like, you like to make up things anyway.

Stranger

Do you believe in the Communion of saints?
Do you believe that ALL of us in the Body of Christ are there for each other, praying for each other and rejoicing with one another?
Do you believe that they pray for us from Heaven? Do you believe that they take our prayers to God?

If not - then you reject the Communion of the saints, yet you still believe that you are Catholic.
Utter hypocrisy . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is not my opinion. Peter didn't steal anything. I have no problem with Peter.

The Catholic Church didn't steal authority. The Roman Church did.

As I have said, there is nothing in Scripture to give Rome any primacy. It is the Romanists that must make it up. As I said, go back and reread. Just starting the question over again is not going to change the outcome.
Stranger

There is no Biblical evidence for Peter being the pope or the Roman church having authority over all the Church of Christ.

There is no Scripture proving Peter's Primacy.
Stranger

And, until you can address the over one DOZEN Biblical proofs I presented in post #1121 showing Peter's Primacy - your position is as impotent as a Nevada boxing commissioner. Opinions don't mean squat in light of documented evidence.

In short - you brought a pea-shooter to a gunfight . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

ya, what a beacon you are lol, yikes. i'm guessing you lead hundreds a day--to Atheism

 

[Stranger]

Do you believe in the Communion of saints?
Do you believe that ALL of us in the Body of Christ are there for each other, praying for each other and rejoicing with one another?
Do you believe that they pray for us from Heaven? Do you believe that they take our prayers to God?

If not - then you reject the Communion of the saints, yet you still believe that you are Catholic.
Utter hypocrisy . . .

Sure, I believe in the communion of saints.

Sure, I believe all Christians are part of the Body of Christ. We pray and rejoice in our local setting. If something of the universal church comes to our attention then we pray and rejoice in that.

I do not reject the communion of the saints. I reject what you are trying to make it to be.

The point is that the holy Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed is not the Roman church.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

And, until you can address the over one DOZEN Biblical proofs I presented in post #1121 showing Peter's Primacy - your position is as impotent as a Nevada boxing commissioner. Opinions don't mean squat in light of documented evidence.

In short - you brought a pea-shooter to a gunfight . . .

Peter was never given any primacy. The verses you show don't prove Peter is over the church of Rome and that the Roman church is over all the Church.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sure, I believe in the communion of saints.

Sure, I believe all Christians are part of the Body of Christ. We pray and rejoice in our local setting. If something of the universal church comes to our attention then we pray and rejoice in that.

I do not reject the communion of the saints. I reject what you are trying to make it to be.

The point is that the holy Catholic Church in the Apostles Creed is not the Roman church.

Stranger

The Communion of Saints, by definition includes ALL members of the Body of Christ - living on earth,in heaven and in the final state of purification.

There is no "smorgasbord" version where you pick and choose which parts you agree with or reject.
Either you believe in the doctrine or you don't.

Totally hypocritical of you to consider yourself "Catholic" because of the creed - but reject the very next line about the Communion of Saints . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Peter was never given any primacy. The verses you show don't prove Peter is over the church of Rome and that the Roman church is over all the Church.

Stranger

Sure they do.
Can you address why Peter was singled out so much?
Can you address why Jesus prayed for Him alone to bring back the others?
Can you address ANY of the dozen or so Scriptural points I made??

Yeah - I didn't think so.
You've been taken to the woodshed and been Scripturally-spanked . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

ya, what a beacon you are lol, yikes. i'm guessing you lead hundreds a day--to Atheism

No - just spreadin' the truth.

Funny how you anti-Catholics are good at dishing it out - but God forbid that a Catholic doesn't just sit there and take your abuse.
All of a sudden, we're the "mean"and nasty" ones . . .

 

[Stranger]

The Communion of Saints, by definition includes ALL members of the Body of Christ - living on earth,in heaven and in the final state of purification.

There is no "smorgasbord" version where you pick and choose which parts you agree with or reject.
Either you believe in the doctrine or you don't.

Totally hypocritical of you to consider yourself "Catholic" because of the creed - but reject the very next line about the Communion of Saints . . .

I believe in the communion of saints. I also believe in water baptism. But, not the water baptism of Rome. So, you see, I am Catholic. I am just not Roman.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Sure they do.
Can you address why Peter was singled out so much?
Can you address why Jesus prayed for Him alone to bring back the others?
Can you address ANY of the dozen or so Scriptural points I made??

Yeah - I didn't think so.
You've been taken to the woodshed and been Scripturally-spanked . . .

I never said God didn't use Peter. I said Peter was never given any primacy over the Church. If anyone would have had the primacy over the Church it would have been Paul, who really was in Rome. But, Paul was not given any primacy over the Church either.

Which is why Peter or Rome is not addressed in the 7 local churches of Asia. Jesus Christ speaks directly to the leader of each church and to the individuals of said church. The pope, the papacy, Rome's authority over all churches, is a lie.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe in the communion of saints. I also believe in water baptism. But, not the water baptism of Rome. So, you see, I am Catholic. I am just not Roman.

Stranger

So, you believe that the Communion of Saints includes ALL members of the Body of Christ - living on earth,in heaven and in the final state of purification? You believe that we can ask them for prayer - and that they will pray for us?

If not - you have invented another definition for this doctrine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I never said God didn't use Peter. I said Peter was never given any primacy over the Church. If anyone would have had the primacy over the Church it would have been Paul, who really was in Rome. But, Paul was not given any primacy over the Church either.

Which is why Peter or Rome is not addressed in the 7 local churches of Asia. Jesus Christ speaks directly to the leader of each church and to the individuals of said church. The pope, the papacy, Rome's authority over all churches, is a lie.

Stranger

You still haven't addressed any of the dozen Scriptural points I made.
Until you can do that - your argument is nothing but opinion and you've been soundly defeated.

Did Jesus tell ANY of the other Apostles to Tend His flock and feed His lambs??
Nope - ONLY Peter.

Why is this if he was NOT in charge??

 

[Stranger]

So, you believe that the Communion of Saints includes ALL members of the Body of Christ - living on earth,in heaven and in the final state of purification? You believe that we can ask them for prayer - and that they will pray for us?

If not - you have invented another definition for this doctrine.

I believe in the communion of saints. That we all are members of the Body of Christ. I can ask the saints here on earth to pray with me. There is nothing in Scripture that says I as a believer am to ask saints in heaven to pray for me.

As I said, just because I don't believe Romes definition of baptism, doesn't mean I don't believe in baptism. The same is true with 'communion of saints'.

Do you believe all believers are saints?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You still haven't addressed any of the dozen Scriptural points I made.
Until you can do that - your argument is nothing but opinion and you've been soundly defeated.

Did Jesus tell ANY of the other Apostles to Tend His flock and feed His lambs??
Nope - ONLY Peter.

Why is this if he was NOT in charge??

Again, I never said God was not using Peter. He did. Peter, James, and John were of the inner circle in relationship to Christ in His eartly ministry. Christ was telling Peter to feed His sheep because Peter failed so miserably in denying Christ. Christ was trying to restore his faith.

That Peter would still have a ministry, yes. That he was the leader of the Church, ridiculous. That he was ever a pope, more ridiculous. That Rome was ever given such authority over the Church, ridiculous.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe in the communion of saints. That we all are members of the Body of Christ. I can ask the saints here on earth to pray with me. There is nothing in Scripture that says I as a believer am to ask saints in heaven to pray for me.

As I said, just because I don't believe Romes definition of baptism, doesn't mean I don't believe in baptism. The same is true with 'communion of saints'.

Do you believe all believers are saints?

Stranger

Do you believe that there is NONE righteous, as Rom. 3:10 says?
As for Baptism - Jesus gave the prescription (Matt. 28:19, John 3:5) - not Rome or any other city.