Was James confused?

[GodsGrace]

***

You said "So you don't believe they were treating Jesus as God at this point?So you don't believe they were treating Jesus as God at this point?""

Why did you say that???> I never said that so I won't waste my time trying to refute it.

In post 632, you said this:

"The Jews who believed were those that accepted Jesus as their Messiah and King."

The Messiah did not necessarily have to be God. The Messiah was one who was SENT by God to be His representative. So it seemed to me that you were saying that they were treating Jesus as the Messiah and not God. I did ask a question which you could have answered...No matter.

What is supported by scriptures is that the believing Jews believed that Jesus was their Messiah and King. They never heard the gospel of grace until Paul taught it.

Matt 16:15-17
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV
But it seems Peter forgot this when he denied Jesus 3 times.

The Son of the Living God and the Messiah are two different concepts, I'm sure you know this.

Near the end of Peters life he said this about Paul's message of God's grace.

2 Peter 3:14-16 ----- Be Steadfast
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Peter has indicated that Paul's writings are scripture.

I never said they aren't.
Some would like to remove James from the bible.
Every book in the bible belongs there.
I do believe that Paul created a bit of a problem by trying to explain about being under the law. But it's not the layman's fault if the churches today no longer teach what they used to.

Much of scripture is twisted...

 

[Armadillo]

I do believe that Paul created a bit of a problem by trying to explain about being under the law.

If Paul was preaching being under the law then what did he mean by being under grace?

Romans 6:14, For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

But it's not the layman's fault if the churches today no longer teach what they used to.

What was being taught in the early church vs what is being taught in the churches today and what are the churches today no longer teaching?

 

[amadeus]

Some would like to remove James from the bible.
Every book in the bible belongs there.
I do believe that Paul created a bit of a problem by trying to explain about being under the law. But it's not the layman's fault if the churches today no longer teach what they used to.

Much of scripture is twisted...

All of the Bible, the 66 books anyway, that we have for the most part is given to us by God, which includes James. I have read the extra books in the Catholic Bible and won't say they are not from God, but each time I read them I've had a hard time getting through them.

I've read some of the other books called apochrypha but was never interested in going back to them again after one time through, if I made it that far. For me those which I do read regularly, [the 66 including James], belong for they complement each other in making the whole. That is how I see it and I believe it comes to me from God although, if someone were to ask to prove it I would have to refer them to God. I have the proof in me, but not everyone will see or understand that.

Perhaps some of the depth of Paul has caused trouble for some, but God has His purposes even in that I believe. All of us struggle with our besetting sins and sometimes within those sometimes difficult pages penned by Paul lie our answers even if we do not immediately see them. As you say a simple believer [layman was your word] is not to be blamed for the lacks or even abuses in the teachings of the teachers supposedly from God, but if he is really a believer he can be blamed for not communicating with God himself. He can be blamed for not himself doing what he knows that he should...

"Eph 4:11 And he [God] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

If some of the ones God gave as special ministers to others fail to work as He wants them to work then I believe Ezekiel's words would apply:

"Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." Ezek 33:2-6

The highlighted words leave the "layman" responsible along with slack watchman. Both will suffer the consequences when they fail to do what God expects them to do.

Twisting scripture shouldn't happen, but we know that it does. When a person really does that and the truth is known to him, he is in big trouble with God whether he is one of those five in Eph 4:11 or is some other saint of God. [I use the word saint as I believe that the scripture uses it.]

 

[GodsGrace]

If Paul was preaching being under the law then what did he mean by being under grace?

I never said Paul was preaching being under the law.
I never said we live under the law.
We are under the grace of the New Covenant.
I've only said that the law (the 10 commandments) are not abolished.
If murder was a sin 4,000 years ago, it's still a sin today.
God has not changed His mind.

Romans 6:14, For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Jesus gave His life so that we may no longer be slaves to the law.
This does not mean that the law no longer exists.
Romans 3:31

Romans 3:31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith?
May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
In the O.C. the people tried to keep the law themselves but they could not.

In the N.C. the law still exists but it is kept with the help of the Holy Spirit. With the spirit of God who lives in us. This is the difference.
Before it was man trying to keep the law,
Now it's God helping us to keep the law.
But the law must still be kept.
We are still required to obey God and keep His commandments.

What was being taught in the early church vs what is being taught in the churches today and what are the churches today no longer teaching?

Well Armadello, getting into this deeply with someone who doesn't even believe in the law is pretty much a waste of time.

Let's put it this way. In the time after Jesus' resurrection and up until the reformation -- 1,500 years after Jesus died, it was believed that we went to be with God by following His rules and keeping the commandments. This was done, of course, by persons who desired to be with God. God cannot be mocked...

Today we have the teaching that we only need to "accept" Jesus and pretty much nothing else has to happen. We believe in faith.
But faith without works is dead.

It seems the modern church does not like works. Or good deeds, or following the rules and/or commandments of God.

 

[Armadillo]

Today we have the teaching that we only need to "accept" Jesus and pretty much nothing else has to happen.

The Holy Spirit moves in. I wouldn't call that "nothing".

 

[Armadillo]

Well Armadello, getting into this deeply with someone who doesn't even believe in the law is pretty much a waste of time.

Well, GG, getting into this deeply with someone who doesn't even believe the Holy Spirit moves in can be considered a waste of time too.

 

[Helen]

@Armadillo Well said .

 

[Helen]

God ONLY gave the law to His people Israel , not to the Nations around them. He gave the law of circumcision also,to His people.
*He imposed neither on the Gentile nations, it's the church that has imposed the law on believers who were never under the law before!!! They believers according to some, are now expected to keep the law... but somehow we hear nothing about God requiring circumcision to be kept.
Tut tut, I wonder how many who believe they are doing so well with keeping the law will feel IF they land in heaven uncircumcised!!
One has to keep all the 'letter of the law' to really do it right!!

*I am still waiting for someone to own up and tell us all ..that they themselves are keeping all ten...AND the two Love commandments perfectly...because, as they claim, God demands perfection.
How is it working for everyone...please tell the rest of us here.

We have endless threads about faith and works, Law and grace....talk comes very cheap...

Tell us how are you all LIVING IT?
How well are you actually DOING IT??
How is it working ... YOU??

I can say in 54 yrs it sure hasn't worked for me..and I am now running out of the road ahead. My one and only sure and glorious hope is faith in Christ and His saving grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, GG, getting into this deeply with someone who doesn't even believe the Holy Spirit moves in can be considered a waste of time too.

See?
Was I right or was I wrong?
I know my chickens.
Please do not ask serious questions unless you want to have a serious discussion.

 

[GodsGrace]

God ONLY gave the law to His people Israel , not to the Nations around them. He gave the law of circumcision also,to His people.
*He imposed neither on the Gentile nations, it's the church that has imposed the law on believers who were never under the law before!!! They believers according to some, are now expected to keep the law... but somehow we hear nothing about God requiring circumcision to be kept.
Tut tut, I wonder how many who believe they are doing so well with keeping the law will feel IF they land in heaven uncircumcised!!
One has to keep all the 'letter of the law' to really do it right!!

*I am still waiting for someone to own up and tell us all ..that they themselves are keeping all ten...AND the two Love commandments perfectly...because, as they claim, God demands perfection.
How is it working for everyone...please tell the rest of us here.

We have endless threads about faith and works, Law and grace....talk comes very cheap...

Tell us how are you all LIVING IT?
How well are you actually DOING IT??
How is it working ... YOU??

I can say in 54 yrs it sure hasn't worked for me..and I am now running out of the road ahead. My one and only sure and glorious hope is faith in Christ and His saving grace.

Circumcision is a ceremonial law
These have been abolished.

There were 3 types of law in the O.T.
It's important to know what they were so you don't bring up questions such as the above...

Yes. TALK does come cheap.

 

[GodsGrace]

God ONLY gave the law to His people Israel , not to the Nations around them. He gave the law of circumcision also,to His people.
*He imposed neither on the Gentile nations, it's the church that has imposed the law on believers who were never under the law before!!! They believers according to some, are now expected to keep the law... but somehow we hear nothing about God requiring circumcision to be kept.
Tut tut, I wonder how many who believe they are doing so well with keeping the law will feel IF they land in heaven uncircumcised!!
One has to keep all the 'letter of the law' to really do it right!!

*I am still waiting for someone to own up and tell us all ..that they themselves are keeping all ten...AND the two Love commandments perfectly...because, as they claim, God demands perfection.
How is it working for everyone...please tell the rest of us here.

We have endless threads about faith and works, Law and grace....talk comes very cheap...

Tell us how are you all LIVING IT?
How well are you actually DOING IT??
How is it working ... YOU??

I can say in 54 yrs it sure hasn't worked for me..and I am now running out of the road ahead. My one and only sure and glorious hope is faith in Christ and His saving grace.

P.S.
Circumcision was a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.
We are now under the New Covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Armadillo Well said .

What was well said?
WHAT DID HE SAY??

I must have missed it.
Seems to me like he said nothing but put down a fellow believer.
Very nice of HIM.
Isn't it?

 

[mjrhealth]

In the N.C. the law still exists but it is kept with the help of the Holy Spirit. With the spirit of God who lives in us. This is the difference.
Before it was man trying to keep the law,
Now it's God helping us to keep the law.

See that is no where in the bible, and that was not teh reason why we are given teh Holy Spirit. There is not a single person in this world who keeps the ten commandments, we are not able, wheter in deed or thought, many boasters but no doers. Love has no rules no laws it just does, ...

 

[Helen]

P.S.
Circumcision was a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.
We are now under the New Covenant.

Dah...as if I didn't know that!

I do notice you posted in reference to the post you quoted of mine...BUT YOU DID NOT answer the question that I asked from all of you who maintain that God requires NT believers (who were never given the law to keep a law that He never gave them!)

Answer the questions or stop keep brow beating believer that God requires us to keep the law.
It is a lie. It is false teaching, it is error...
YOU go ahead, live under what you CHOOSE to believe and live by..but stop nagging others to do what has never been required of them by God.
Get you own life sorted out and stop nagging others.

Answer truthfully..you, and the others who put this weight onto believers.

.....Tell us how well you are LIVING IT?

........How well are you actually DOING THIS??

............How is really it working ... YOU??

It's easy to keep on and on about 'what God requires of us...iIF He requires it..make it easy for the rest of us...how does it actually WORK?
This is important.
You have said here that you are a teacher...a teacher doesn't tell student what they should be doing, without telling them How to do it. So..the floor is yours...how do you keep all the laws, the old and the New ones?

 

[tabletalk]

From John Calvin's Institutes:

Lastly, to the believers, too, in whose hearts the Spirit of God already lives and reigns it (the Law) provides no unimportant use, warning them as it does, more and more earnestly what is right and pleasing in the Lord's sight. For even though they have the law written and engraved upon their hearts by the finger of God (Her.31:33; Heb. 10:16) that is, have been so moved and quickened that they long to obey the Lord's will, they still profit by the law because from it they learn more thoroughly each day what the Lord's will is like.
To sum up, the law is an exhortation to believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

See that is no where in the bible, and that was not teh reason why we are given teh Holy Spirit. There is not a single person in this world who keeps the ten commandments, we are not able, wheter in deed or thought, many boasters but no doers. Love has no rules no laws it just does, ...

What is a paraclete?
Didn't Jesus say he would send one?
John 14:16

 

[GodsGrace]

Dah...as if I didn't know that!

I do notice you posted in reference to the post you quoted of mine...BUT YOU DID NOT answer the question that I asked from all of you who maintain that God requires NT believers (who were never given the law to keep a law that He never gave them!)

Answer the questions or stop keep brow beating believer that God requires us to keep the law.
It is a lie. It is false teaching, it is error...
YOU go ahead, live under what you CHOOSE to believe and live by..but stop nagging others to do what has never been required of them by God.
Get you own life sorted out and stop nagging others.

Answer truthfully..you, and the others who put this weight onto believers.

.....Tell us how well you are LIVING IT?

........How well are you actually DOING THIS??

............How is really it working ... YOU??

It's easy to keep on and on about 'what God requires of us...iIF He requires it..make it easy for the rest of us...how does it actually WORK?
This is important.
You have said here that you are a teacher...a teacher doesn't tell student what they should be doing, without telling them How to do it. So..the floor is yours...how do you keep all the laws, the old and the New ones?

Then why did you ask why cicumcision is not adhered to today?

 

[Helen]

Then why did you ask why cicumcision is not adhered to today?

Oh another response and continually side stepping my questions.
Answer them...tell us how it is DONE. How you do it..etc...
You are like the Pharisees..you hang weights on believers, but you don't tell us HOW you get the job of law keeping done..or how perfect you are now since you first begun.
Answer truthfully..you, and the others who put this weight onto believers.

.....Tell us how well you are LIVING IT?

........How well are you actually DOING THIS??

............How is really it working ... YOU??

Waiting.........

 

[mjrhealth]

What is a paraclete?
Didn't Jesus say he would send one?
John 14:16

You should read my posts before jumping in. I said that was not teh reason why He gave us teh Holy Spirit.

 

[mjrhealth]

Then why did you ask why cicumcision is not adhered to today?

We are not Jews