What about Hell ?

[Helen]

The word Hell is used a lot here it seems…so I thought it may be interesting to chat about it.
I am sure we have many different takes on it between us all. :)

I’ll kick it of with this.....

Those of us who have done a lot of witnessing , outreach , and trying to share our faith with unbelievers know that we are often confronted with many questions, especially on the subject of Hell and eternal punishment. We’ve been there, done that haven’t we.
We have found that many people have a real problem with Orthodox Christianity's belief that non-Christians will be punished eternally because they are not Christians.
We have found that this is one of the main reasons many Christians do NOT enjoy sharing their faith with the unsaved! They find themselves coming up short of good answers to questions or statements like these few below…..all viable questions from the unsaved point of view....but an answer has to be given when in a conversation.

"If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God, because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."
Or….
"How can you believe that burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair” God. Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime……..but according to Christians, unsaved people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not."

"Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured!!"

"You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. That does not sound like justice….it sounds like insanity!"

"Infinite punishment for finite crimes ….does that sound just doesn't seem to be for me..worldly judges do better than that!"

"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? You make God look like a monster even worse than Hitler but not a loving Father Who would die for His enemies!"

"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity will go there, how can you say that - 'Love NEVER fails?’ Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things."

"If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished in Hell "

Sadly THIS is the understanding that ‘the church’ has given to them over the decades…and we wonder why people aren’t flooding to the churches!?

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

 

[Job]

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

Psalm 86 - KJV
13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalm 86 - NKJV
13 For great is Your mercy toward me,
And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

 

[bbyrd009]

13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

better toss that scribed-up yack imo, read the Lex, or something. Anything

For Your faithful love for me is great, and You deliver my life from the depths of Sheol.

The grave, Sheol, is not "hell," and neither is Gehenna, nor Hades. "Hell" comes through Angle/Norse mythology, a German word originally i think, and highlighting the relevant phrase here and searching will tell you how that happened, scribes just doing their thing. Not saying that one won't be sorry if they don't find Christ here though, ok. And if fear initially motivates one to seek Christ, maybe the concept is not all bad anyway, at least it gets one to Nehushtan worship.

 

[Armadillo]

The Apostle Paul doesn't mention hell in his Epistles but he was writing to churches, the Christians, so that is why he left "hell" out?

Then there is 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

But the "hell" written here isn't for disobeying the law and commandments but for those rejecting Jesus Christ.

I believe those without Christ live in "hell" already and "hell" isn't a future destination of flames and torment for unbelievers.

 

[Armadillo]

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They are still waiting for their Messiah so they can rule the world.

 

[amadeus]

There is no doubt in my mind that the concept of hell as a place of torment for those not attaining to Life is a man-made misconception. Life is Jesus. Those without Him are already dead and will remain so. Their future once the dirt is thrown over their faces in the grave [hell] is simply non-existence. Why would God punish a dead man for staying dead? He simply has no reward; he has no Life; he has unending death.

 

[Dcopymope]

The word Hell is used a lot here it seems…so I thought it may be interesting to chat about it.
I am sure we have many different takes on it between us all. :)

I’ll kick it of with this.....

Those of us who have done a lot of witnessing , outreach , and trying to share our faith with unbelievers know that we are often confronted with many questions, especially on the subject of Hell and eternal punishment. We’ve been there, done that haven’t we.
We have found that many people have a real problem with Orthodox Christianity's belief that non-Christians will be punished eternally because they are not Christians.
We have found that this is one of the main reasons many Christians do NOT enjoy sharing their faith with the unsaved! They find themselves coming up short of good answers to questions or statements like these few below…..all viable questions from the unsaved point of view....but an answer has to be given when in a conversation.

"If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God, because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."
Or….
"How can you believe that burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair” God. Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime……..but according to Christians, unsaved people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not."

"Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured!!"

"You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. That does not sound like justice….it sounds like insanity!"

"Infinite punishment for finite crimes ….does that sound just doesn't seem to be for me..worldly judges do better than that!"

"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? You make God look like a monster even worse than Hitler but not a loving Father Who would die for His enemies!"

"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity will go there, how can you say that - 'Love NEVER fails?’ Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things."

"If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished in Hell "

Sadly THIS is the understanding that ‘the church’ has given to them over the decades…and we wonder why people aren’t flooding to the churches!?

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

Well I don't know where you got this idea that hell isn't found in the old testament, because the Bible search software I use found the word mentioned 31 times, Job only quoted two of them.

(Psalms 9:15-20) "The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken. {16} The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. {17} The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. {18} For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever. {19} Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight. {20} Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah."

Traditions of men they say? HA!!!! Now its no surprise that those are the responses they typically get when they spread the message of the gospel to unbelievers. The reason is simple, its because they really aren't telling the truth of what actually occurs at judgement for those who aren't the bride of Christ. This false belief that all who don't repent are by default tossed in the lake of fire stems from their erroneous idea of what it actually means to be saved. It does in fact make God out to be far worse than Hitler or any other tyrant to ever exist, and far from a loving character. I've written about this copiously before fairly recently in fact. Instead of discussing it at length again, I'll just boil it down to the nit and grit of the actual event in Revelation 20. For those who define being saved as not being tossed in the fire, can you point out in the chapter where it ever says that all those who are judged at that appointed time are automatically tossed in the fire?

(Revelation 20:11-15) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now does it at all say that every single person judged is thrown in the fire, or only those who are not found in the book of life?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well I don't know where you got this idea that hell isn't found in the old testament, because the Bible search software I use found the word mentioned 31 times, Job only quoted two of them.

you can't quote it a single time from the Lex though, hmm.

Ah, here it is, one time, in all of Scripture. No witness, iow. Hmm.

 

[Helen]

I wish they had a 'like' and a 'thumbs up' icon.
Well said @amadeus
Much about the 'Hell' that is taught ,is very suspect and it has done MORE to hinder evangelism than most anything else.
The Good News = Gospel gets much better interest and response when the conversation includes- " Did you know that God loves you so much that He sent Jesus to set you free?"
I grieve for the years we spent going around every Friday night for hours... trying to "save people from going to Hell." What a waste of time...
I just wish we had know back then that the Gospel means GOOD NEWS....not bad news. (Sigh )

 

[Dcopymope]

you can't quote it a single time from the Lex though, hmm.

Ah, here it is, one time, in all of Scripture. No witness, iow. Hmm.

In other words......"OH BUT THE HEBREW".....

When all else fails, when the Bible states something that doesn't fit with your own interpretation, no worries, you can revert to your dictionaries.....typical. I don't need your dictionaries, I have the word of God and your books have no authority over it.

 

[bbyrd009]

In other words......"OH BUT THE HEBREW".....

I don't need your dictionaries, I have the word of God and your books have no authority over it.

ha ok, best of luck then. I quoted no "Hebrew" whatsoever. "Tartarus" is the Mythological Greek term for what we call hell, not Hades.

 

[Dcopymope]

ha ok, best of luck then

God doesn't operate off luck, he is absolute.

 

[bbyrd009]

Isn't anyone curious why all this Greek mythology in your Holy Writ? lol. These are a statement in themselves imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

God doesn't operate off luck, he is absolute.

yes, well, you picked this snippet, and not the rest, so it's your story, you tell it. Your opinion is as valid as mine.

 

[Dcopymope]

yes, well, you picked this snippet, and not the rest, so it's your story, you tell it. Your opinion is as valid as mine.

Of course....except this isn't "my opinion", its the word of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course....except this isn't "my opinion", its the word of God.

well, we differ there too, and you have no Scripture for this, either imo.

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.

 

[Dcopymope]

well, we differ there too, and you have no Scripture for this, either imo.

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.

(Psalms 12:6-8) "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. {7} Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. {8} The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

 

[Richard_oti]

There is no doubt in my mind that the concept of hell as a place of torment for those not attaining to Life is a man-made misconception. Life is Jesus. Those without Him are already dead and will remain so. Their future once the dirt is thrown over their faces in the grave [hell] is simply non-existence. Why would God punish a dead man for staying dead? He simply has no reward; he has no Life; he has unending death.

There is still the second resurrection and the second death (cf Rev 20:13-14). Only three are "tormented forever", the "devil, the beast and the false prophet". A second death however, is exactly that, death. The man made concept of people burning in hell forever simply does not stand up. Though personally, I would rather that none were "tormented forever", not that I sympathize so much, but perhaps it is meant to serve as a reminder which I would see as rather unsightly. But, who am I to question.

 

[amadeus]

I wish they had a 'like' and a 'thumbs up' icon.
Well said @amadeus
Much about the 'Hell' that is taught ,is very suspect and it has done MORE to hinder evangelism than most anything else.
The Good News = Gospel gets much better interest and response when the conversation includes- " Did you know that God loves you so much that He sent Jesus to set you free?"
I grieve for the years we spent going around every Friday night for hours... trying to "save people from going to Hell." What a waste of time...
I just wish we had know back then that the Gospel means GOOD NEWS....not bad news. (Sigh )

My own guess on the matter is that way back when someone presented a very fear inspiring fire and brimstone message to some highly susceptible people. It accomplished the preacher's purpose and grew from there. Ideas from writings like Dante's Inferno were easy to incorporate. Oh, they certainly used scripture to support their ideas, but it would not be the first time the scripture was misused, would it?

 

[Dcopymope]

There is still the second resurrection and the second death (cf Rev 20:13-14). Only three are "tormented forever", the "devil, the beast and the false prophet". A second death however, is exactly that, death. The man made concept of people burning in hell forever simply does not stand up. Though personally, I would rather that none were "tormented forever", not that I sympathize so much, but perhaps it is meant to serve as a reminder which I would see as rather unsightly. But, who am I to question.

There is no such thing as annihilationism.

(Revelation 14:9-11) "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, {10} The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: {11} And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

(Matthew 25:41-46) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: {42} For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: {43} I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. {44} Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? {45} Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. {46} And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."