What about Hell ?

[amadeus]

There is still the second resurrection and the second death (cf Rev 20:13-14). Only three are "tormented forever", the "devil, the beast and the false prophet". A second death however, is exactly that, death. The man made concept of people burning in hell forever simply does not stand up. Though personally, I would rather that none were "tormented forever", not that I sympathize so much, but perhaps it is meant to serve as a reminder which I would see as rather unsightly. But, who am I to question.

Of course we could probably build more of a case for such things, but is that really what God wants us to do? Missing out with God really is bad enough for a person who is not serving God if he understands what he is missing. Is it worth it to anyone to obtain the short-lived pleasures that some will they say are available in this short time that each of us has here? I don't believe so, but not many are willing to listen to me on that nor would they listen to Jesus if he were here in the flesh to present His case to them...

 

[bbyrd009]

(Psalms 12:6-8) "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. {7} Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. {8} The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

a great passage, helps to make the point that "words" are not Word, as is revealed in...the Lexicon:
Psalm 12:6 Lexicon: The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.


wow, i've actually been searching for this one for another forum, ty.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
but not many are willing to listen to me on that nor would they listen to Jesus if he were here in the flesh to present His case to them...

IOW: In the words of one of the Little Rascals: They'll never learn.

 

[Richard_oti]

There is no such thing as annihilationism.

Ok. You win. Perhaps it is obviously not a second "death" after all.

 

[FHII]

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

Ugh! Bygrace we have got to stop meeting like this after I get off work of my second job!

I am wondering out loud without researching... What was/is the Jews concept of the afterlife?

Do they believe in heaven? I did a word search and the first 20 appearances can be tken to mean the sky and not the Kingdom of God/great city, etc...

Just a brainstorming question.

 

[101G]

There is no such thing as annihilationism.

I believe the bible support this. Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind". consciousness is in the mind.

also instead of worrying about hell, the lake of fire should be people main concern, or the second death. because death and hell will be cast into it. Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

 

[Dcopymope]

I believe the bible support this. Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind". consciousness is in the mind.

also instead of worrying about hell, the lake of fire should be people main concern, or the second death. because death and hell will be cast into it. Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

The Lake of Fire was the hell I was referring to.

(Mark 9:42-44) "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. {43} And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {44} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Not the other hell, like the one made for angels, the pit.

(2 Peter 2:4) "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

 

[Butterfly]

My own guess on the matter is that way back when someone presented a very fear inspiring fire and brimstone message to some highly susceptible people. It accomplished the preacher's purpose and grew from there. Ideas from writings like Dante's Inferno were easy to incorporate. Oh, they certainly used scripture to support their ideas, but it would not be the first time the scripture was misused, would it?

Hi Amadeus, it's Rita X
My son and I were discussing this the other day, he is very much of the opinion that the teaching of hell was introduced with the means of controlling the people - which often happened before people could read scripture for themselves - it became interwoven into the very heart of religion - as we are a few generations down the line, it's been handed down, but once again in question because we do have the ability to search it out for ourselves and seek the truth x

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus, it's Rita X
My son and I were discussing this the other day, he is very much of the opinion that the teaching of hell was introduced with the means of controlling the people - which often happened before people could read scripture for themselves - it became interwoven into the very heart of religion - as we are a few generations down the line, it's been handed down, but once again in question because we do have the ability to search it out for ourselves and seek the truth x

Hello, Butterfly/ Rita X

It seems that you may agree with me and on son on this. If not, my advice is to go softly on him. It is better for both of you that he is looking to God rather than some place else even if you disagree on this point.

 

[Butterfly]

Hello, Butterfly/ Rita X

It seems that you may agree with me and on son on this. If not, my advice is to go softly on him. It is better for both of you that he is looking to God rather than some place else even if you disagree on this point.

I agree with you, my son just looks back and sees the control of the religious - so sadly he is not seeing beyond that to God - it's kind of weird as we have both kind of discovered the manipulation of man through religion at the same time- yet we were on completely different journeys - but it does give us a place of common agreement.

 

[amadeus]

I agree with you, my son just looks back and sees the control of the religious - so sadly he is not seeing beyond that to God - it's kind of weird as we have both kind of discovered the manipulation of man through religion at the same time- yet we were on completely different journeys - but it does give us a place of common agreement.

Too many people are more concerned with all of the little rituals and the refinement of the definitions of their little quirks of belief differences than they are with the real Good News which Jesus brought. I'll be praying for you and your son on this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course....except this isn't "my opinion", its the word of God.

Hi D,
You should do a little study on this.
In the O.T. we read about Gehenna, Hades and Sheoul.
None of which represent hell as it is understood by many churches.
The hell that is preached is in 2 Peter 2:4 but it's reserved for fallen angels.

No one really knows what hell is. The mere fact that God will not be there will make it be hell. Just think how our world now would be if only evil existed in it and God were absent.

A really big denomination church is actually saying that hell was not well understood years ago and was taught incorrectly.

I don't have too much else to say on this subject -- I don't particularly enjoy talking about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Amadeus, it's Rita X
My son and I were discussing this the other day, he is very much of the opinion that the teaching of hell was introduced with the means of controlling the people - which often happened before people could read scripture for themselves - it became interwoven into the very heart of religion - as we are a few generations down the line, it's been handed down, but once again in question because we do have the ability to search it out for ourselves and seek the truth x

Hi RitaX

I'm not so sure what you say was done intentionally.
In Mathew 25:41 (or thereabouts) Jesus DOES say to some that they will go to hell. Now, which hell did He mean?
The bible was translated very badly when it comes to this one word.
The KJV says that "they will go into everlasting punishment".
A study could be done on this, but it doesn't interest me too much.

I believe the intention was to keep persons out of hell. Perhaps fear was used instead of love. This I can attest to. But I don't believe it was to manipulate people. For what possible reason??

Anyway, the idea is to keep out of there!
Let's just keep our eyes on Jesus and not think about hell too much.

 

[FHII]

Here is something I pulled off the web on the Jewish concept of the afterlife. I've included the reference. I looked at one other source and found it to be pretty much the same. I'll comment later, but I am looking forward to what others think.



Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it
• The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)
• Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief
• Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief.

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion.

 

[Helen]

Ugh! Bygrace we have got to stop meeting like this after I get off work of my second job!

I am wondering out loud without researching... What was/is the Jews concept of the afterlife?

Do they believe in heaven? I did a word search and the first 20 appearances can be tken to mean the sky and not the Kingdom of God/great city, etc...

Just a brainstorming question.

Sorry I forgot to answer this last night..I was too tired to write.
I do not know an answer...but...
I found this:- Maybe you have seen it? He gives no scripture references
Quote:-
Dear Rabbi,

Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.
-------------------------

Answer:

"We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.

Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again.

We don’t put our socks in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and wearable again. The intense heat of the water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes it off completely. Far from hurting your socks, you are doing them a favor by putting them through this process.

So too with the soul. Every act we do in our lifetime leaves an imprint on our soul. The good we do brightens and elevates our soul, and every wrongdoing leaves a stain that needs to be cleansed. If, at the end of our life, we leave this world without fixing the wrongs we have done, our soul is unable to reach its place of rest on high. We must go through a cycle of deep cleansing. Our soul is flung around at an intense spiritual heat to rid it of any residue it may have gathered, and to prepare it for entry into Heaven.

Of course, this whole process can be avoided. If we truly regret the wrong we have done and make amends with the people we have hurt, we can leave this world with “clean socks.”

That’s why our Sages said, “Repent one day before you die.” And what should you do if you don’t know which day that will be? Repent today."

( and this one which is a balance to the above..
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heaven-and-hell-in-jewish-tradition/ )

Sorry, can do better.

Will meet you again soon.

 

[FHII]

Sorry I forgot to answer this last night..I was too tired to write.
I do not know an answer...but...
I found this:- Maybe you have seen it? He gives no scripture references
Quote:-
Dear Rabbi,

Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.
-------------------------

Answer:

"We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.

Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again.

We don’t put our socks in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and wearable again. The intense heat of the water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes it off completely. Far from hurting your socks, you are doing them a favor by putting them through this process.

So too with the soul. Every act we do in our lifetime leaves an imprint on our soul. The good we do brightens and elevates our soul, and every wrongdoing leaves a stain that needs to be cleansed. If, at the end of our life, we leave this world without fixing the wrongs we have done, our soul is unable to reach its place of rest on high. We must go through a cycle of deep cleansing. Our soul is flung around at an intense spiritual heat to rid it of any residue it may have gathered, and to prepare it for entry into Heaven.

Of course, this whole process can be avoided. If we truly regret the wrong we have done and make amends with the people we have hurt, we can leave this world with “clean socks.”

That’s why our Sages said, “Repent one day before you die.” And what should you do if you don’t know which day that will be? Repent today."

( and this one which is a balance to the above..
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heaven-and-hell-in-jewish-tradition/ )

Sorry, can do better.

Will meet you again soon.

Well that's interesting. Compare that to the reference I quoted. It seems the Jewish place more emphasis on getting it right in this life. Jesus came preaching heaven and hell and told us to set our affection on things above. Heaven is above both hell and earth, so to speak.

It seems to me that the Jews in Jesus's day were looking for someone to restore their earthly kingdom and deliver them from the Romans. Jesus came speaking of a different deliverance and a different kingdom.

Thry wanted deliverance from the Romans and Jesus was trying to deliver them from themselves!

Its not easy to ignore hell or the lake of fire... But we are to set our affections elsewhere.

 

[bbyrd009]

In the O.T. we read about Gehenna, Hades and Sheoul.

this may have already come out, but there is neither of the first two OT

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry I forgot to answer this last night..I was too tired to write.
I do not know an answer...but...
I found this:- Maybe you have seen it? He gives no scripture references
Quote:-
Dear Rabbi,

Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.
-------------------------

Answer:

"We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.

Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again.

We don’t put our socks in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and wearable again. The intense heat of the water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes it off completely. Far from hurting your socks, you are doing them a favor by putting them through this process.

So too with the soul. Every act we do in our lifetime leaves an imprint on our soul. The good we do brightens and elevates our soul, and every wrongdoing leaves a stain that needs to be cleansed. If, at the end of our life, we leave this world without fixing the wrongs we have done, our soul is unable to reach its place of rest on high. We must go through a cycle of deep cleansing. Our soul is flung around at an intense spiritual heat to rid it of any residue it may have gathered, and to prepare it for entry into Heaven.

Of course, this whole process can be avoided. If we truly regret the wrong we have done and make amends with the people we have hurt, we can leave this world with “clean socks.”

That’s why our Sages said, “Repent one day before you die.” And what should you do if you don’t know which day that will be? Repent today."

( and this one which is a balance to the above..
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heaven-and-hell-in-jewish-tradition/ )

Sorry, can do better.

Will meet you again soon.

Sounds just like purgatory.
So you believe in purgatory now?

 

[bbyrd009]

In Mathew 25:41 (or thereabouts) Jesus DOES say to some that they will go to hell

or at least to a "fire," the same word used for the rich man's "tongue."

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe the intention was to keep persons out of hell.

i believe a drop of water for the tongue has a symbolic meaning