Calling all Law Keepers.

[bbyrd009]

Lev. 24:7 – the word “memorial” in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is “azkarah” which means to actually make present (see Lev. 2:2,9,16;5:12;6:5; Num.5:26 where “azkarah” refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus’ instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a “memorial offering” demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present in time over and over again.

again here, see how "actually make present" is turned into "actually make present...in a ritual."

 

[epostle1]

John 19:29; cf. Matt. 27:48; Mark 15:36; – Jesus is provided wine (the Fourth Cup) on a hyssop branch which was used to sprinkle the lambs’ blood in Exodus 12:22. This ties Jesus’ sacrifice to the Passover lambs which had to be consumed in the seder meal which was ceremonially completed by drinking the Cup of Consummation. (the Fourth Cup) Then in John 19:30, Jesus says, “It is consummated.” The sacrifice began in the upper room and was completed on the cross. God’s love for humanity is made manifest.

Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; John 19:14 – the Gospel writers confirm Jesus’ death at the sixth hour, just when the Passover lambs were sacrificed. Again, this ties Jesus’ death to the death of the Passover lambs. Like the Old Covenant, in the New Covenant, the Passover Lamb must be eaten.

Heb. 9:23 – in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better “sacrifices” than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called “sacrifices,” in the plural? Jesus died once. This is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.

1 Cor. 10:16 – “the cup of blessing” or Third cup makes present the actual paschal sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb who was slain.

1 Cor. 11:26 – Paul teaches that as often as you eat the bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death. This means that celebrating the Eucharist is proclaiming the Gospel.

1 Cor. 10:21 – Paul’s usage of the phrase “table of the Lord” in celebrating the Eucharist is further evidence that the Eucharist is indeed a sacrifice. The Jews always understood the phrase “table of the Lord” to refer to an altar of sacrifice. See, for example, Lev. 24:6, Ezek. 41:22; 44:16 and Malachi 1:7,12, where the phrase “table of the Lord” in these verses always refers to an altar of sacrifice.

 

[jimd]

I don't think Jesus meant emotionalism and sentimentalism to be the real thing over and above His Body and Blood, although I'm sure they have their place.

In my opinion the eating and drinking is figurative, meaning to live by. The scripture says it is a sign or proclamation in memory of Christ. Our body and blood being reaffirmed as a sacrifice in the body and blood of Christ is what we are supposed to be reexamining ourselves about before we partake of these emblems. The idea that the bread and wine is literally flesh and blood is caused by trying to take everything in scripture literally, probably the #1 cause of error among Christians.

1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.

 

[bbyrd009]

In my opinion the eating and drinking is figurative, meaning to live by.

The idea that the bread and wine is literally flesh and blood is caused by trying to take everything in scripture literally, probably the #1 cause of error among Christians.

ah, then according to the RCC, they have the authority to "remove Christ from you."

33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.

a rather curious denou...ending, huh? Apropos of nothing, really, "wait for one another."

 

[jimd]

ah, then according to the RCC, they have the authority to "remove Christ from you."

I thought that but did not say it

a rather curious denou...ending, huh? Apropos of nothing, really, "wait for one another."

Where I attend church we wait until everyone has the emblem in hand before partaking. Maybe it promotes a Spirit of unity or maybe there was a lot of disorder in this particular church, who knows?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am trying to make a clear distinction between a sinful nature, which I think would be better referred to as a fleshly nature. In other words, to have a fleshly or sinful nature is not a sin, it is not something a baby needs to be baptized for. Not until we realize we are disobeying the Lord do we need to believe in the Lord for salvation, don't you think?
I will ask the question again, if Adam and Eve did not have a fleshly/sinful nature, why did they disobey the Lord? Most people seem to think if God made us with a fleshly nature He did something wrong but how else could you make a free choice, reproductive human? Angels do not reproduce do they and we will not reproduce in heaven will we? Just thinking out loud here

I agree wholeheartedly.
HAVING the sin nature or flesh nature is not in itself a sin.
We all have the sinful nature.
Not only do we have it, but we still listen to it at times.
A sin is not a sin until you understand what sin is.

Regarding free choice...
I believe in free choice. We choose to be saved.

As far as God making a mistake,,,
No. I don't think God made a mistake, but we're getting into unknown territory here and I have no answer for why we have the sin nature.
You say to give us the choice. OK. If that works for you, it's fine.

We're in agreement here.

 

[GodsGrace]

you might temper that with the understanding that we have no record of anyone actually eating any of Jesus. And we can also note that many misunderstood, even then.

I think that some disciples walked away because they DID understand.
The first Christians were thought to be cannibals.
John 6:66

 

[GodsGrace]

as you say, yes; it is a symbol of something that needs be accomplished in truth, IRL, that a ritual cannot replace. Unless taking communion = eating and drinking Christ for real to you, which it surely might for some. Understand what they are really saying, and go from there imo.

I'm on the fence about this.
I guess we're all on the fence about something.
Jesus speaks symbolically sometimes, but most times He meant everything literally (actions anyway).
I know that Jesus is present, I'm sure about that.
The Real Presence.

 

[GodsGrace]

ha, now listen to yourself, discussing a ritual one moment, and referring to "nature," or "life," the next.

I never said it's just a ritual.
On the contrary.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 19:29; cf. Matt. 27:48; Mark 15:36; – Jesus is provided wine (the Fourth Cup) on a hyssop branch which was used to sprinkle the lambs’ blood in Exodus 12:22. This ties Jesus’ sacrifice to the Passover lambs which had to be consumed in the seder meal which was ceremonially completed by drinking the Cup of Consummation. (the Fourth Cup) Then in John 19:30, Jesus says, “It is consummated.” The sacrifice began in the upper room and was completed on the cross. God’s love for humanity is made manifest.

Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; John 19:14 – the Gospel writers confirm Jesus’ death at the sixth hour, just when the Passover lambs were sacrificed. Again, this ties Jesus’ death to the death of the Passover lambs. Like the Old Covenant, in the New Covenant, the Passover Lamb must be eaten.

Heb. 9:23 – in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better “sacrifices” than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called “sacrifices,” in the plural? Jesus died once. This is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.

1 Cor. 10:16 – “the cup of blessing” or Third cup makes present the actual paschal sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb who was slain.

1 Cor. 11:26 – Paul teaches that as often as you eat the bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death. This means that celebrating the Eucharist is proclaiming the Gospel.

1 Cor. 10:21 – Paul’s usage of the phrase “table of the Lord” in celebrating the Eucharist is further evidence that the Eucharist is indeed a sacrifice. The Jews always understood the phrase “table of the Lord” to refer to an altar of sacrifice. See, for example, Lev. 24:6, Ezek. 41:22; 44:16 and Malachi 1:7,12, where the phrase “table of the Lord” in these verses always refers to an altar of sacrifice.

Thanks for posting the above.
Your second paragraph has always been very interesting to me.
How much proof do we need to show that Jesus is the Messiah???

 

[KBCid]

Hi Kepha,
You mention the fourth cup and I had done a study on the cups and cannot remember too much. --- I will not drink this cup again until I drink it with you--- referring to the crucifixion, if I remember.
It would make a good thread but I don't remember enough about it.
As to the Eucharist being the same as the crucifixion...
Protestants love to say that Catholics sacrifice Jesus again at every Mass.
I know for sure that this is not true because priests themselves tell me this and if they don't know, I don't know who would!!
They've explained that it is, indeed, a memorial. Not a memory.

The sacrifice of Christ or lamb of God is supposed to be a yearly "memorial" to replace the original Passover sacrifice since the original was a shadow of things to come. The bread and blood part of the "ritual".

"These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD's Passover." Leviticus 23:4,5

The idea of Passover as an "appointed time" is expressed by the words of Yeshua as he prepares to meet his own appointed time in Jerusalem. In Mathew 26:17,18, Yeshua calls Passover "my appointed time." In saying this, the Master has identified the appointed time of the Festival of Unleavened Bread as his appointed time.
Paul concurs. Paul identifies all of the Biblical Festivals as the Appointments of the Messiah. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul gives the festivals, new moons and Sabbaths (as well as other aspects of Torah observance) an eschatological value, shadows of things to come. The appointed times, Paul says, are a shadow of things to come. He further adds that their very substance is Messianic in nature.

...In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul adjured the gentile believers to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the basis that "Messiah our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7). It is a passing statement in a larger context. Paul does not feel the need to explain or defend his words, because his interpretation of Messiah as Passover Lamb was certainly not his own. Clearly, the First Century believers regarded the Passover sacrifice of a lamb as finding a type of Messianic satisfaction in the death of the Master. Judaism has always expected the Messiah to bring the great salvation at the appointed time of Passover.
Sacrifice of the Passover Lamb

 

[bbyrd009]

I think that some disciples walked away because they DID understand.
The first Christians were thought to be cannibals.
John 6:66

yet no literal blood was offered to drink, and those disciples obviously misunderstood, not understood, as imo was what was intended anyway. Yes, surely Jews and heathens spoke about Christians as if they were vampires, but that is the "understanding" of the disciples who you say "understood," right.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus speaks symbolically sometimes, but most times He meant everything literally (actions anyway).

note how artfully this dichotomy is presented to us; "take, eat, this is my body" but no arm is being hacked off to consume, and etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

I never said it's just a ritual.
On the contrary.

pardon me, i'm sure that is true for you, and i was speaking to the perspective of many others.

 

[jimd]

I agree wholeheartedly.
HAVING the sin nature or flesh nature is not in itself a sin.
We all have the sinful nature.
Not only do we have it, but we still listen to it at times.
A sin is not a sin until you understand what sin is.

Regarding free choice...
I believe in free choice. We choose to be saved.

As far as God making a mistake,,,
No. I don't think God made a mistake, but we're getting into unknown territory here and I have no answer for why we have the sin nature.
You say to give us the choice. OK. If that works for you, it's fine.

We're in agreement here.

Sorry, I am still not sure if you believe Adam and Eve were created with a fleshly nature?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What kind of fruit was it in the Garden of Eden?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, I am still not sure if you believe Adam and Eve were created with a fleshly nature?

No. They were created perfectly.
In fact, they had preternatural gifts.
Gifts that went BEYOND nature, like for instance, immortality.

They received the sin nature/flesh nature, AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit. And all of the effects of that sin are in us and in nature. Since they fell, we have inherited the sin nature/fleshly nature.

Is this your understanding?

 

[GodsGrace]

note how artfully this dichotomy is presented to us; "take, eat, this is my body" but no arm is being hacked off to consume, and etc.

Check out what John 6:54 is saying in Greek.
Eats = Gnaws

I've always found this interesting.
Did Jesus not use the correct terminology?

 

[GodsGrace]

What kind of fruit was it in the Garden of Eden?

This is not very funny.
Everybody knows it was an apple.
Just ask any kid.

 

[GodsGrace]

note how artfully this dichotomy is presented to us; "take, eat, this is my body" but no arm is being hacked off to consume, and etc.

But He held up bread.
And the two discples in Emmaus recognized Him upon the breaking of the bread.

Blood - the life was in the blood.
Jesus is the life.
He gives us life or we are dead in sin.

Sometimes I think it's so profound, I can't understand it all.