Calling all Law Keepers.

[jimd]

I believe he knows both.
Don't let the funny images fool you...

However, yes. the Tree of Life is Jesus.[/QUOTE]Yes! Then what tree if we eat from/try to live by, without eating from the tree of life, will bring us death? This one is a little more difficult to understand, at least it was for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, they were made of dirt, flesh, blood and bone just as we are and they were promised immortality if they obeyed, just as we are. They did not obey which proves to me they had a fleshly nature just as we do but it's ok if we disagree on issues like this because however we understand it will not affect our salvation. At least I don't think it will, do you?

I agree. It doesn't have anything to do with salvation.
But I do like to discuss everything. Sometimes something is said that opens up new thoughts.

When God made everything, everything was good. God made everything good. In that sense they were not like us. We are not born good -- we are born lost.
There is none righteous.
Romans 3:23

We must become saved by faith.
Ephesians 2:8

But they were not promised immortality as we are.
They were MADE to be immortal. That gift was lost when they ate.
We are born mortal, and must RECEIVE the gift from Jesus who gives us life immortal.
IOW, it's exactly the opposite.

You say they did not obey because they had a fleshly nature. So are you saying God made them with the fleshly nature already in them?
Are you saying God created sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe he knows both.
Don't let the funny images fool you...

However, yes. the Tree of Life is Jesus.

Yes! Then what tree if we eat from/try to live by, without eating from the tree of life, will bring us death? This one is a little more difficult to understand, at least it was for me.

Are you talking about the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

 

[GodsGrace]

In case you misunderstood, I do not partake of bread made of grain or juice made of grapes at all. I do partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus on a daily basis. Neither the Catholic nor the Protestant communion as practiced by most group are a part of what I do.

Is it personal to ask what you do?

 

[GodsGrace]

don't be so influenced by society.
Of course it was an apple.

Oh yeah.
What kind?

 

[KBCid]

I'm on the fence about this.
I guess we're all on the fence about something.
Jesus speaks symbolically sometimes, but most times He meant everything literally (actions anyway).
I know that Jesus is present, I'm sure about that.
The Real Presence.

When ever 2 or more are present there am I also....
The "ritual" act that Christ put into place was a symbolic representation to be performed once a year on Passover to remind all the faithful who would gather for the event that their savior performed the final sacrifice that would for be for "the remission of sins that are past" as they strove to become like him.

Of course man has reimagined this act to be done every week on a day they call the Sabbath and most don't even realize that the Passover sacrifice did not fall on a weekly Sabbath even before the Sabbath change by man from Saturday to sunday.

Lev 23:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's Passover.

The fourteenth day of the first month at evening is when Christ was hung on a tree and died.

Matt 26:17 Now before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20 Now when the even (-Abib 14-) was come, he sat down with the twelve.

1 Cor 11:23 I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

The Passover meal that Christ sat at with the disciples would have happened just after the 13th (which as we know the evening begins the next day) on Abib 14 since he was the sacrificial lamb that would be slain on Abib 14 at evening which in this case was during the week. Thus all disciples would celebrate "it" the new covenant on the same day of the year as the Passover fell on.

 

[GodsGrace]

When ever 2 or more are present there am I also....
The "ritual" act that Christ put into place was a symbolic representation to be performed once a year on Passover to remind all the faithful who would gather for the event that their savior performed the final sacrifice that would for be for "the remission of sins that are past" as they strove to become like him.

Of course man has reimagined this act to be done every week on a day they call the Sabbath and most don't even realize that the Passover sacrifice did not fall on a weekly Sabbath even before the Sabbath change by man from Saturday to sunday.

Lev 23:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's Passover.

The fourteenth day of the first month at evening is when Christ was hung on a tree and died.

Matt 26:17 Now before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20 Now when the even (-Abib 13-) was come, he sat down with the twelve.

1 Cor 11:23 I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

The Passover meal that Christ sat at with the disciples would have happened on Abib 13 since he was the sacrificial lamb that would be slain on the normal day Abib 14 which in this case was during the week. Thus all disciples would celebrate "it" the new covenant on the same day of the year as the Passover fell on.

This is very interesting.
I've followed very learned persons discuss when Jesus actually died, or when the Passover actually occured. Some believe it was on Nissan, the 15th day. You don't call it Nissan but it's probably the same.

Of very much interest to me is what you wrote at the end:

“This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

OK. I see what you mean, but you cannot drink a cup.
But they did drink cups at the Passover meal.
I'm going to have to look into this more.
The New Covenant is established with the blood of Christ that is the last sacrifice.

Another matter is the Sabbath.
John 20:1
On the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, which is Sunday.
How do you explain that?
Was it you who explained that the tomb was ALREADY empty?

 

[GodsGrace]

When ever 2 or more are present there am I also....
The "ritual" act that Christ put into place was a symbolic representation to be performed once a year on Passover to remind all the faithful who would gather for the event that their savior performed the final sacrifice that would for be for "the remission of sins that are past" as they strove to become like him.

Of course man has reimagined this act to be done every week on a day they call the Sabbath and most don't even realize that the Passover sacrifice did not fall on a weekly Sabbath even before the Sabbath change by man from Saturday to sunday.

Lev 23:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's Passover.

The fourteenth day of the first month at evening is when Christ was hung on a tree and died.

Matt 26:17 Now before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20 Now when the even (-Abib 14-) was come, he sat down with the twelve.

1 Cor 11:23 I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

The Passover meal that Christ sat at with the disciples would have happened just after the 13th (which as we know the evening begins the next day) on Abib 14 since he was the sacrificial lamb that would be slain on Abib 14 at evening which in this case was during the week. Thus all disciples would celebrate "it" the new covenant on the same day of the year as the Passover fell on.

Another thought:

Your verse or Luke 22:19
"He took bread....broke it..and gave it to them saying This is my body which is given for you, DO THIS in remembrance of me."

DO WHAT in remembrance?
It doesn't say to eat the bread, this is inferred from other verses.

Sorry. Just thinking out loud.

 

[amadeus]

I usually agree with you Amadeus.
But how could you say the Eucharist, or Communion, is just a ritual?

The real thing is when we eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Jesus is the Word of God. People call the Bible the Word of God and when they consume it they are eating His flesh, but alone it is dead flesh as his body was dead on the cross until he resurrected.

For you and me we eat His flesh, but we need the quickening Spirit, the Holy Spirit, to bring His flesh to Life within us. This is where I get away from many other believers for I see the Blood to drink is the Holy Spirit. It is the quickening [bringing to Life] Spirit in us which is the Holy Spirit we have received.

Before Jesus went to His death He said, Do This In Memory of Me.
Which memory?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

When He was alive or when He was resurrected?

We eat the dead flesh [the scripture which is His dead carcass] and we drink the quickening Spirit [the Holy Ghost] which produces the Living Word within us.

If we receive Communion, at His command, does it not become something more than just a ritual?

Jesus said to eat His body and drink His blood. This sounds so serious to me.

All through the OT we read types and shadows of the real Jesus and accept that that is what they are. The real thing was yet to come. Jesus did come but the power of the Holy Ghost was not yet for whosoever will..., not until that day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter 2. What Jesus did was give the disciples another type or shadow the reality to come to help them understand it when it did come. Without the Holy Ghost, no one could eat His flesh and have it be brought to Life as a part of the "new" or "inner man".

We can eat the wafer and drink the fruit of the grape without harm so long as we seriously eat His real flesh and drink His real Blood.

Did you know that Luther believed in either transubstantiation or the real presence until his death? (can't remember which).

Luther from what I have read worked to set things right which he saw as being wrong, but he did not see or understand everything. Does a person have to understand everything to benefit from the blessings of God and even by the redemption of Jesus?

Do we Protestants not believe that Jesus is actually present at a Communion? Doesn't this make it more than a ritual?

He gave up His body for us. When the priest breaks that host in half, it's a symbol of Jesus breaking His body for us.

When Jesus broke the bread at the "last supper" it was symbolic and when the disciples ate it, it was symbolic. When His body was broken on the cross it was the real thing for what does it say?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,.. " John 1:14

It was that Word made flesh that was broken on the cross.

So we begin by consuming the dead carcass of the scriptures and the Holy Ghost in us will quicken it bringing it to Life.

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

 

[amadeus]

I'm on the fence about this.
I guess we're all on the fence about something.
Jesus speaks symbolically sometimes, but most times He meant everything literally (actions anyway).
I know that Jesus is present, I'm sure about that.
The Real Presence.

Have you never felt and been made aware of the "Real Presence" when reading your Bible prayerfully? I say prayerfully because it is when the Holy Spirit is working in us that the dead words come to Life?

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
Gifts that went BEYOND nature, like for instance, immortality.
<snip>

I don't know that I can agree with that statement. I have seen nothing indicative of Adam and Eve having "immortality" in and of themselves. They had access to the "Tree of Life" until they were banished from the Garden. Thus the "guard" at the gate so to speak.

IOW: "If" they had "immortality", it would have only been the result of access to the "Tree of Life".

 

[amadeus]

yet no literal blood was offered to drink, and those disciples obviously misunderstood, not understood, as imo was what was intended anyway. Yes, surely Jews and heathens spoke about Christians as if they were vampires, but that is the "understanding" of the disciples who you say "understood," right.

There was no real blood as of yet. The physical blood was spilled when he was being whipped and when he was hanging on the cross. But... what Jesus was doing was completing the necessary work so that He could be the Head of the Body of Christ. He overcome the last obstacle for himself in the Garden of Gethsemene when he prayed to have the cup removed and then said three times, "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt". At that point he had overcome his own world of flesh [John 16:33]. Then he was ready to pay the price for flawed you and me as we could not pay it for ourselves: He went to the cross. The Word in his flesh was dead. So we eat then the dead scriptures and on the day of Pentecost...

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" Joel 2:28

The Holy Spirit brought to Life in them words which Jesus had spoken while they were with them:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

But... while the Head was ready after Gethsemene for the Body of Christ, the Body itself which is to consist of believers was still being prepared. Are we ready yet?

Can anyone understand why I look at the Holy Spirit as the Blood we are to drink, the real Blood of Jesus as the Head of the Body of Christ ?

 

[amadeus]

Is it personal to ask what you do?

I already answered this, I believe.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh yeah.
What kind?

I already told you it was a Cortland.
You never listen to me.
And Cortlands are grown in New York.
You couldn't possibly be from New York.
Tell the truth.
You're from Moscow, aren't you?

 

[amadeus]

I don't know that I can agree with that statement. I have seen nothing indicative of Adam and Eve having "immortality" in and of themselves. They had access to the "Tree of Life" until they were banished from the Garden. Thus the "guard" at the gate so to speak.

IOW: "If" they had "immortality", it would have only been the result of access to the "Tree of Life".

And how was it that anyone could get through the gate to the Tree of Life. They had to pass the flaming sword. What is the sword but the Word of God. Why fire?

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

And what is it that He consumes, if not the forces of evil?

"Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego." Dan 3:22

"Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Dan 3:24-25

Apparently only their bonds were burned up by the fire...

 

[GodsGrace]

I already told you it was a Cortland.
You never listen to me.
And Cortlands are grown in New York.
You couldn't possibly be from New York.
Tell the truth.
You're from Moscow, aren't you?

No way!
1. It's cold there.
2. I THINK it's full of people who miss communism.
3. Cortlands. Isn't that a neighborhood in the Bronx?
I do think so.
4. Which reminds me...I forgot to make a pie!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No way!
1. It's cold there.
2. I THINK it's full of people who miss communism.
3. Cortlands. Isn't that a neighborhood in the Bronx?
I do think so.
4. Which reminds me...I forgot to make a pie!

I'm told the best apple pies are made in Moscow.
Is that true?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Try having an Apple Pie Moscow Mule.
Now you're talking.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm told the best apple pies are made in Moscow.
Is that true?

Not true.
The apples up there freeze - they're no good.
The best apple pie is made in Italy.
In Tuscany.
In the north of it.
Right near me.
Very near.

 

[GodsGrace]

Try having an Apple Pie Moscow Mule.
Now you're talking.

What's a Moscow Mule?
A drink?
An animal?