What does Our Savior consider Idolatry

[epostle1]

From the CCC: 2112. The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

The OP question:
What does Our Savior consider Idolatry (?)

Any physical object:
1. The eucharist of the Catholic Church.
2. A man who calls himself Jesus.

Idolatry is worship of any created physical object, which does not include all created objects as Scripture clearly shows. The Eucharist is not created by human hands alone and cannot be an idol. You are just being arrogant. Jesus becomes an idol or magician when he is made subservient to human opinions. That is the worst form of idolatry.

THE REFORMATION WALL
good Protestant idols in Geneva, Switzerland

William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox
worshiped by Protestants since 1908.

Redeemer in the Womb
this is idolatry but the statues of the reformers are not?

don't take the sarcasm literally.
I would like to see a justification for the Reformation Wall that doesn't use the
same arguments Catholics have been using for 500 years.​

 

[epostle1]

Statue of John Calvin who banned all statues​

 

[bbyrd009]

The Eucharist is not created by human hands alone and cannot be an idol.

ah sorry, not sure what this is? It isn't in the Bible, so i'd rather hear it from you than get the wrong idea from a link or whatever, ty

 

[tabletalk]

Idolatry is worship of any created physical object, which does not include all created objects as Scripture clearly shows. The Eucharist is not created by human hands alone and cannot be an idol. You are just being arrogant. Jesus becomes an idol or magician when he is made subservient to human opinions. That is the worst form of idolatry.

THE REFORMATION WALL
good Protestant idols in Geneva, Switzerland

William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox
worshiped by Protestants since 1908.

Redeemer in the Womb
this is idolatry but the statues of the reformers are not?

don't take the sarcasm literally.
I would like to see a justification for the Reformation Wall that doesn't use the
same arguments Catholics have been using for 500 years.​

Idolatry is worship of any created physical object, which does not include all created objects as Scripture clearly shows. The Eucharist is not created by human hands alone and cannot be an idol. You are just being arrogant. Jesus becomes an idol or magician when he is made subservient to human opinions. That is the worst form of idolatry.

THE REFORMATION WALL
good Protestant idols in Geneva, Switzerland

William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox
worshiped by Protestants since 1908.

Redeemer in the Womb
this is idolatry but the statues of the reformers are not?

don't take the sarcasm literally.
I would like to see a justification for the Reformation Wall that doesn't use the
same arguments Catholics have been using for 500 years.​

Does the Catholic Church agree with you that the above people, and statues, are worshipped by Protestants?
How about your Bishop? Does he say Protestants worship those "created physical objects" like the statues of certain reformers?

 

[Job]

THE REFORMATION WALL
good Protestant idols in Geneva, Switzerland

William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox
worshiped by Protestants since 1908

Statue of John Calvin who banned all statues
​

If these statues are treated with the same reverence as the Jesus and Mary statues, then yes, they are idols.
.

​

 

[DPMartin]

First you say that we have Liberty! to celebrate, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, which are watered down forms of Idol, false Deity, worship!
Which God said that we should not inquire, how they serve and worship their gods, and use them to worship Me! It is an Abomination! then as an answer to my statement, you say No, not at all, that God has not changed! so does God still consider what we use as an Worship, if it comes from Idol worship an Abomination! I understand that we are a new creation, a peculiar people, some to Everlasting life and some to Shame and everlasting Contempt. Personally how can we justify, rejecting what God said, by claiming to have Liberty, to be disobedient! What was the Very reason that Gods Chosen People, were Exiled from the Promise Land! Do you realize that the Religious Leaders at the time Our Savior! Had Created a Religion, far from what Moses taught, Orthodox Judaism is the same as what the Pharisees were teaching 2000 years ago. What was John the Baptist trying to get the People to Repent from? John was Baptizing before Jesus came to him! John baptized hundreds before our Savior started His Ministry! The Sadducee's didn't believe in the Resurrection, Jesus rebuked them for taking advantage of the Widows! Jesus was almost always Refuting the Pharisees, for their mans made Traditions. For the Traditions of men Make the Word of God to NO Effect. God gave us Holidays! Passover, 7 days of unleavened bread,First Fruits, Pentecost, which is the feast of weeks 7 weeks + 1 day 50. But now we observe Man made Holidays, that are not of God at all! How do we Justify!

I was listening to a comedian on tv that was Lebanese, he was born in the us and then went to Lebanon as a child and was raised there. he wasn't Muslim but in his performance he mentioned that if the Muslims where to celebrate holidays on days where gentiles like to give gifts and spend money then their religion would be a part of the gentile society. hence give it some thought, if you were the catholic church back in the day and you wanted to spread the message making all of what is now Europe aware of Jesus Christ, this would be quite effective correct?


so what's more important the name of Jesus Christ and His story being told through out the western world or what did you say, which are watered down forms of Idol, false Deity, worship! I'm not sure how you've equated such to idolatry, but it may be true that's what it was before the catholic church adopted this method but it sure isn't now is it? also back in the day the catholic church had power and authority to wipe out idolatry, and heresy's and paganism, within the roman influence, and western culture. that's not the case today. you can't have it both ways. and how is it said by Paul who knew the Torah and the meaning of its fulfillment in Christ better than any gentile will ever know.



1Co 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: 26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

[bbyrd009]

First you say that we have Liberty! to celebrate, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, which are watered down forms of Idol, false Deity, worship!

amen

 

[epostle1]

Does the Catholic Church agree with you that the above people, and statues, are worshipped by Protestants?
How about your Bishop? Does he say Protestants worship those "created physical objects" like the statues of certain reformers?

No but you are left defending the existence of reformist statuary. I know they are not worshiped by Protestants for the same reason statues in a Catholic church are not worshiped by Catholics. But the false charge of statue worship has been going on for 500 years because it's part of the reformist identity. It's just as absurd as saying Protestants worship the Reformation Wall. Is any of this sinking in?
Statues of reformers are ok but statues of Jesus, His mother and the saints is idolatry??? Did common sense fly out the window with the advent of reformist 15th century radical iconoclasm?

 

[Job]

Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,

 

[Job]

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

 

[Job]

1 Corinthians 11
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
>snip<
14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

 

[epostle1]

I was listening to a comedian on tv that was Lebanese, he was born in the us and then went to Lebanon as a child and was raised there. he wasn't Muslim but in his performance he mentioned that if the Muslims where to celebrate holidays on days where gentiles like to give gifts and spend money then their religion would be a part of the gentile society. hence give it some thought, if you were the catholic church back in the day and you wanted to spread the message making all of what is now Europe aware of Jesus Christ, this would be quite effective correct?

No. Presentism is a historical fallacy. It is an uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

so what's more important the name of Jesus Christ and His story being told through out the western world or what did you say, which are watered down forms of Idol, false Deity, worship! I'm not sure how you've equated such to idolatry, but it may be true that's what it was before the catholic church adopted this method but it sure isn't now is it? also back in the day the catholic church had power and authority to wipe out idolatry, and heresy's and paganism, within the roman influence, and western culture. that's not the case today. you can't have it both ways. and how is it said by Paul who knew the Torah and the meaning of its fulfillment in Christ better than any gentile will ever know.

How does that relate to the statues of the reformers? You can't deal with the hypocrisy so you change the subject?

The entire known world embraced Christianity before the 4th century but that isn't good enough for anti-Catholics. Your view of "power and authority" is more of a cartoon than a reality. We live in a culture of death and there are enough dead babies to fill a stadium and I suppose you want to blame the Church for that too?

1 Corinthians 10:18-33

It seems to me you are assuming all cultures are locked into the same time frame, and anything that is not 21st century, white, Anglo-Saxon American Protestant Fundamentalist is lost in idolatry.

I agree there is nothing Christian about the ways some people celebrate certain holidays, but that is not the fault of the Church. Your accusations are hollow. Considering the Church is under constant resistance from the world, there are 1.2 billion of us, which is a miracle in itself.

In Christianity inculturation is the adaptation of the way Church teachings are presented to non-Christian cultures and, in turn, the influence of those cultures on the evolution of these teachings. This is a term that is generally used by Roman Catholics, whereas Protestants tend to use the term "contextual theology." (wikedpedia)

Doesn't your church have the power and authority to wipe out idolatry, and heresy's and paganism? You sure expect it from Catholicism.

 

[DPMartin]

No. Presentism is a historical fallacy. It is an uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

How does that relate to the statues of the reformers? You can't deal with the hypocrisy so you change the subject?

The entire known world embraced Christianity before the 4th century but that isn't good enough for anti-Catholics. Your view of "power and authority" is more of a cartoon than a reality. We live in a culture of death and there are enough dead babies to fill a stadium and I suppose you want to blame the Church for that too?

It seems to me you are assuming all cultures are locked into the same time frame, and anything that is not 21st century, white, Anglo-Saxon American Protestant Fundamentalist is lost in idolatry.

I agree there is nothing Christian about the ways some people celebrate certain holidays, but that is not the fault of the Church. Your accusations are hollow. Considering the Church is under constant resistance from the world, there are 1.2 billion of us, which is a miracle in itself.

In Christianity inculturation is the adaptation of the way Church teachings are presented to non-Christian cultures and, in turn, the influence of those cultures on the evolution of these teachings. This is a term that is generally used by Roman Catholics, whereas Protestants tend to use the term "contextual theology." (wikedpedia)

Doesn't your church have the power and authority to wipe out idolatry, and heresy's and paganism? You sure expect it from Catholicism.

ah, how does your posting relate to the conversation I posted to "truth"? what the heck are you talking about, and why do you copy and past from google results? do you even know what you are talking about?

I was posting to "truth's" posting not your apparently self centered self, you're not the only one posting on this thread, the world doesn't revolve around you and what you're thinking today.

 

[epostle1]

ah, how does your posting relate to the conversation I posted to "truth"? what the heck are you talking about, and why do you copy and past from google results? do you even know what you are talking about?

All 3 lines?

I was posting to "truth's" posting not your apparently self centered self, you're not the only one posting on this thread, the world doesn't revolve around you and what you're thinking today.

It's a public forum. Am I supposed to be silent while you mouth off nonsense about the Catholic Church? I patiently tried to explain inculturation but I don't know what I am talking about.

 

[DPMartin]

It's a public forum. Am I supposed to be silent while you mouth off nonsense about the Catholic Church? I patiently tried to explain inculturation but I don't know what I am talking about.

in this particular case, that would be nice. this is a public forum and it is permissible to post what is in your opinion nonsense, and did I just see you say you don't know what you are talking about? if I posted the OP and you respond to the OP then your opinion would have been queried for, but in this case is wasn't.

 

[epostle1]

in this particular case, that would be nice. this is a public forum and it is permissible to post what is in your opinion nonsense, and did I just see you say you don't know what you are talking about? if I posted the OP and you respond to the OP then your opinion would have been queried for, but in this case is wasn't.

You do a lot of pontificating but you haven't answered my question in post #72, which was in direct reply to your post to truth. It's your thread; you can go off topic if you want.

 

[DPMartin]

You do a lot of pontificating but you haven't answered my question in post #72, which was in direct reply to your post to truth. It's your thread; you can go off topic if you want.

for example, everyone in the western culture Christian and atheists alike know that the catholic church adopted a holiday already celebrated by the gentile population to celebrate the birth of Christ. therefore it's not nonsense is it? you might live under a rock but what I posted and the content thereof is legit.

I don't usually pontificate, but since that's what you were doing, it seems the language you understand. I didn't know anyone needed your permission to go off subject, is arrogance your strong point?

done, have a nice day.

 

[DPMartin]

Idolatry is worship of any created physical object, which does not include all created objects as Scripture clearly shows. The Eucharist is not created by human hands alone and cannot be an idol. You are just being arrogant. Jesus becomes an idol or magician when he is made subservient to human opinions. That is the worst form of idolatry.

see I told you, you didn't know what you are talking about, do you make this stuff up as you go or what. surly the Almighty is the judge of what idolatry is, or does your judgement supersede God's in your own mind?



Eze_14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?


nothing physical there is there? where do you get this hodge-podge theology of yours? it can't be from scripture as you say. so you ether are a liar or totally ignorant of the facts of the subject at hand.


man that's two in one thread come on, show us more of what you don't about.

 

[epostle1]

for example, everyone in the western culture Christian and atheists alike know that the catholic church adopted a holiday already celebrated by the gentile population to celebrate the birth of Christ. therefore it's not nonsense is it? you might live under a rock but what I posted and the content thereof is legit.

The Winter Solstice was NOT a Roman Civil holiday until 273 AD. The Emperor Aurelian made December 25th a civil holiday because the Christians were already using it to celebrate the Birth of Jesus and he was trying to detract from the Christian celebration!

None of the Sun Cults used December 25th before then. It appears that the Winter Solstice was originally a CHRISTIAN feast that the pagans tried to paganize, not the other way around.

I said, "Idolatry is worship of any created physical object, which does not include all created objects as Scripture clearly shows." That is a brief definition in the context of the discussion, your exception proves nothing.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the question at the bottom of post #72.

 

[bbyrd009]

hey @kepha31 sorry to interrupt, but i'm arguing your pov on the RCC "removing Christ from" someone, that the language has changed or whatever now, but i'm way out of my depth there, could you tell me where that was changed? ty