Catholics

[BreadOfLife]

how bout you forgive us, and we'll forgive you

Forgive you for what, exactly.
Your rejection of a core belief of Christianity is something you have to iron out with GOD - not me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Should forgive him any way becuase thats what"Christians" do.

Forgive me for what, exactly?
For presenting the truth?

Satan is also offended by the truth . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Forgive you for what, exactly.
Your rejection of a core belief of Christianity is something you have to iron out with GOD - not me.

aw, i hope you can escape from that bro, 13 years in hell is a long time imo

 

[BreadOfLife]

Truth is not objective.

That is a statement that is marinated in moral relativism.

Truth is truth - whether YOU or Pontius Pilate - anybody else believes it.
It doesn't "change" depending on the believer or doubter.

Truth is objective.

 

[BreadOfLife]

aw, i hope you can escape from that bro, 13 years in hell is a long time imo

???
13 years in Hell??

 

[bbyrd009]

???
13 years in Hell??

ah, guess it will be 14 soon, huh.

Anyway, you are forgiven.

 

[epostle1]

Two Churches? That is likely what comes from using man's logic. What is heaven and what is earth? Who is ruling what?

Jesus rules from heaven. Peter and his successors rule the Church on earth.

No I lifted up the name of Jesus for there is no other name under heaven whereby we may be saved, is there? I never set up any man against Jesus. I am afraid that was the doing of other men early on in your church and now continued by you and others. In the OT direct access to God was unavailable to most, but with Jesus it became available to whosoever will. Why build up a new step up [or down] to come unto Him?

I am not talking about salvation, I am talking about the primacy of Peter, as scripture plainly shows.

So then fight against those who uphold 16th century politics today. Unfortunately I doubt that a single one has survived.

The point is that is when the rejection of Peter's primacy began. It's a man made tradition.

"And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.? Mark 9:7

That has nothing to do with Peter's primacy.

 

[amadeus]

That is a statement that is marinated in moral relativism.

Truth is truth - whether YOU or Pontius Pilate - anybody else believes it.
It doesn't "change" depending on the believer or doubter.

Truth is objective.

What pray tell does it mean to marinate a statement in moral relativism? Does being able to say it or write it edify anyone in the things of God?

Presuming that the following definition is a good one:

"Objective information or analysis is fact-based, measurable and observable."

Who then can measure Jesus? Who can analyse or even know all of the facts about Jesus? Who can observe them all?
And of course if we believe that the Bible record is correct, Jesus is the Truth.

Of course you may find another definition of "objective" that fits your belief.

Scientists are supposedly objective in their methods and in their conclusions. Do you suppose a scientist could objectively and correctly describe Jesus for us using only the scientific method?

 

[BreadOfLife]

What pray tell does it mean to marinate a statement in moral relativism? Does being able to say it or write it edify anyone in the things of God?

Presuming that the following definition is a good one:

"Objective information or analysis is fact-based, measurable and observable."

Who then can measure Jesus? Who can analyse or even know all of the facts about Jesus? Who can observe them all?
And of course if we believe that the Bible record is correct, Jesus is the Truth.

Of course you may find another definition of "objective" that fits your belief.

Scientists are supposedly objective in their methods and in their conclusions. Do you suppose a scientist could objectively and correctly describe Jesus for us using only the scientific method?

That's funny. You accuse ME of finding a definition of "objective" that fits my belief - yet YOU'VE done the same thing.

Objectivity is something that is not influenced by personal opinion. Something that is neutral or impartial.
Jesus tells us that He is the Truth (John 14:6) - and when the creator makes a claim - it's the truth, whether or not YOU or anybody else feels that way.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ah, guess it will be 14 soon, huh.

Anyway, you are forgiven.

For what, exactly?

 

[bbyrd009]

For what, exactly?

ah well...Christ came for sinners, not the righteous, i guess

peace :)

 

[BreadOfLife]

ah well...Christ came for sinners, not the righteous, i guess

In other words - you have absolutely NO idea why you claim to have "forgiven" me.
That's what I thought . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

In other words - you have absolutely NO idea why you claim to have "forgiven" me.
That's what I thought . . .

prolly a more accurate expression there would be "i already knew that," don't you think?

 

[amadeus]

Jesus rules from heaven. Peter and his successors rule the Church on earth.

The way you expressed it indicated to me that you believed there were two churches. You should be careful with your wording. We would not want any one to go away from here confused.

I am not talking about salvation, I am talking about the primacy of Peter, as scripture plainly shows.

You haven't posted a verse yet that plainly showed it to me.

The point is that is when the rejection of Peter's primacy began. It's a man made tradition.

If you already knew Peter's primacy was a man made tradition, why are we even talking about it?

[Sorry, LOL but I couldn't resist. You should really be more careful what you say. Is there such a thing as a Freudian slip with regard to the things of God?]

That has nothing to do with Peter's primacy.

To me it means to listen primarily to Jesus rather than Moses or Elijah. It also means to me to listen primarily to Jesus rather than any other man including Peter.

 

[amadeus]

That's funny. You accuse ME of finding a definition of "objective" that fits my belief - yet YOU'VE done the same thing.

Objectivity is something that is not influenced by personal opinion. Something that is neutral or impartial.
Jesus tells us that He is the Truth (John 14:6) - and when the creator makes a claim - it's the truth, whether or not YOU or anybody else feels that way.

In other words to say something is objective depends upon who is defining the word. Obviously since truth is absolute, it cannot absolutely be considered objective.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you already knew Peter's primacy was a man made tradition, why are we even talking about it?

Word

 

[bbyrd009]

In other words to say something is objective depends upon who is defining the word. Obviously since truth is absolute, it cannot absolutely be considered objective.

i notice this central theme in any religion; the construction first of an "absolute truth," or a body of work that is pointed to as "absolute truth," like Christians do the Bible. Even though the Book of Truth is mentioned in Scripture!

The Bible seems to deliberately close ppls minds, if they were predisposed to that, i guess.

 

[mjrhealth]

Forgive me for what, exactly?
For presenting the truth?

Satan is also offended by the truth . . .

Yes but the only truth you know is catholism and that is a complete lie. And you cant offend me, i have worse.

 

[bbyrd009]

Forgive me for what, exactly?

yikes, you need us all to tell you again? How many times?

 

[epostle1]

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matt 20:16

That has nothing to do with Peter's primacy. The Jews were called first, the last called are followers of Christ. Check a commentary.

So then Peter took it upon himself many times to be the first to speak rather than the last. Therefore again...
"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matt 20:16
Doesn't look to me like Peter qualified himself as first according to God's way.

That has nothing to do with Peter's primacy. The Jews were called first, the last called are followers of Christ. Check a commentary. You are inserting your opinion into the text.

Because his name is mentioned, he is the leader?

You are distorting what I said.
Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
Did the Father ignore Jesus' prayer for Peter?

Was Peter the only one who would be a fisher of men?

I said no such thing.

Again Peter does a lot of questioning and he speaks a lot, but remember Moses and his brother Aaron...

What about them? Did they have no authority either?

Even if this were significant, it would still be quite a jump from there to Pope. He still is not following God's rule on this:
"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matt 20:16

See above. That has nothing to do with Peter's primacy.

On the mountain of transfiguration only Peter stuck his foot in his mouth by opening his mouth.

Nonsense. Peter is the only apostle that spoke at the Transfiguration but of course you missed that.

"A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards." Prov 29:11

That has nothing to do with Peter's primacy.

And this makes him their leader?

Yes, very clearly. Luke 22:31-32

Are we not all to pray for the brethren?

Yes, but we are not all commissioned to feed His sheep, which includes the other apostles. Did the Father ignore Jesus' prayer for Peter?

This thing of going through all of those verses is futile as whatever I see or say won't change your mind in any case.

70+ verses won't change your mind either so how can you claim to follow scripture?

Peter was important without a doubt in the eyes of Jesus, but that does not make him or anyone a Pope.

Then why did Jesus change Simon bar Jonah's name and none of the other 12?