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mjrhealth

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The way you expressed it indicated to me that you believed there were two churches. You should be careful with your wording. We would not want any one to go away from here confused.


You haven't posted a verse yet that plainly showed it to me.



If you already knew Peter's primacy was a man made tradition, why are we even talking about it?

[Sorry, LOL but I couldn't resist. You should really be more careful what you say. Is there such a thing as a Freudian slip with regard to the things of God?]


To me it means to listen primarily to Jesus rather than Moses or Elijah. It also means to me to listen primarily to Jesus rather than any other man including Peter.
You know He wont let go even when what HE says disagrees with what JEsus said.

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Seems not even Jesus can agree with Himself, says one thing than according to teh RC He does another. Hi Peter I made a rule but for you im going to break it, stuff teh other 11. But than without the lie there religion would have no purpose for its existence. But than none of any mens religions do serve any purpose but make slaves of men.
 
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epostle1

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Matthew 16:17-19

W.F. Albright (Protestant) and C.S. Mann
“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.”
(The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Albert Barnes (Presbyterian)
"The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: ‘Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion"
[Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 170].

John Broadus (Calvinistic Baptist)
"As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that ‘upon this rock’ means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter’s confession"
[Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)
"The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification"
[New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)
“On the basis of the distinction between 'petros' . . . and 'petra' . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere 'stone,' it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the 'rock' . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between 'petros' and 'petra' simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine 'petra' could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been 'lithos' ('stone' of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .”
(Expositor's Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

J. Knox Chamblin (Contemporary Presbyterian)
"By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself"
["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R.T. France (Anglican)
“Jesus now sums up Peter's significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter's character (he did not prove to be 'rock-like' in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus' church. The feminine word for 'rock', 'petra', is necessarily changed to the masculine 'petros' (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form 'kepha' would occur in both places). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the 'rock' here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed. "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied. . . Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus' new community . . . which will last forever.” (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

William Hendriksen (Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary)
“The meaning is, “You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church.” Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, “And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.”
(New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1973], page 647JPK page 14]

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)
"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Catholics to justify the papacy"
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)
“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.”
(The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)

Herman Ridderbos (Contemporary Dutch Reformed)
"It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter"
[Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

For the Protestant Reformers to rationalize breaking away from what was universally acknowledged in their culture as the Christian Church, it was necessary for them to deny the Catholic Church’s authority. To maintain their positions, they were forced to portray it as a kind of "anti-Church" that was unjustly claiming the prerogatives of Christ’s true (but invisible) Church.

Their chief target was, of course, the pope. To justify breaking away from the successor of Peter, they had to undercut the Petrine office itself. They were forced to deny the plain reading of Matthew 16:18—that Jesus made Peter the rock on which he would build his Church.

More recent Protestants have been able to back away from the position that early Protestants felt forced to make and have been able to admit that Peter is, indeed, the rock. It remains to be seen whether they will start drawing the necessary inferences from this fact.
 
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epostle1

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My response to the Protestant petros/petra objection is as follows:

1. GREEK ORTHODOX NEVER USED THIS ARGUMENT

This is tremendously important. If anybody had a reason to deny papal authority or the Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16, it would have been the Greek Orthodox. From the 5th century all the way through the Middle Ages the Greeks contested the papacy's claims over authority over the Church of God. Since this was the case, and since the Greeks, especially of the earlier centuries, were reading the Scriptures in their original languages, does it not stand to reason that if there was any import to Christ's use of the words petra and petros in Matthew 16, the Greeks would have noticed it? If such a distinction really did have the import that Protestants say it does, this argument would have been invaluable in the hands of the Greek apologists in the contest with Rome for primacy.

2. MARTIN LUTHER NEVER USED THIS ARGUMENT

We can go ahead and use this same sort of reasoning when we come to Martin Luther. Here, once again, we have a man with a solid knowledge of New Testament Greek (who even made his own German translation of the New Testament) and a vested interest in disproving Rome's claims to primacy. If there really was any sort of argument to be made by the petros/petra distinction, Martin Luther was the person to notice it. Yet Luther does not use this argument either.

He certainly attacks the papacy; he uses selective citations from the Fathers, heaps abuse upon the Roman pontiffs for alleged excessive use of power and even fabricates a variant reading of Matthew 16 where Jesus says to Peter "You are a rock" but then turns and points to Himself before saying, "Upon this rock I will build my Church," thus inferring some sort of extra-biblical gesture or motion of our Lord to explain away the passage. Yet, though he has gone so far as imagine an invented extra-biblical gesture to explain our Lord's words, he does not center in on petros/petra as a point of argument. This is because he knew there was no argument there.

I am not sure when the petros/petra argument first came into vogue; my guess is sometime around the early 20th century with the rise of the historical critical school. But the fact that neither the Greek Orthodox or Martin Luther ever used the argument, though they had the knowledge of Greek and the motivation against the papacy to do so, ought to be a clear reminder that this argument is just a fabrication - a non-argument.
Petra vs. Petros: The Silence of Luther and the Greeks
 
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amadeus

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"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." I Cor 3:19-20
 
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epostle1

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"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." I Cor 3:19-20
This has nothing to do with learned Protestant scholars who have studied the Bible all their lives and write reference manuals to aid us dummies in understanding it better. You are trying to raise yourself above them with a pious "wisdom of this world" quote which is completely off topic.
Adam Clarke Commentary
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

Face the biblical truth: Peter is the ROCK upon which Jesus builds His Church.
 
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bbyrd009

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They were forced to deny the plain reading of Matthew 16:18—that Jesus made Peter the rock on which he would build his Church.
ah, the old "plain reading" doctrine, lol.
It remains to be seen whether they will start drawing the necessary inferences from this fact.
well, we got Pent pastors blessing the king now, and sending their sons to guard poppy fields and topple democratically elected governments, not sure how much better they could be doing that. I mean, wanna see the numbers for last year, we get progress reports lol
My response to the Protestant petros/petra objection is as follows:
imo the whole thing has gotten misrepresented. I have no objection if you want to follow Peter/Pope, just so you know.
 
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bbyrd009

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This has nothing to do with learned Protestant scholars
the reply was not directed at them though, kepha
which is completely off topic.
hmm, i got it. You might wanna change perspective and read it again
Face the biblical truth: Peter is the ROCK upon which Jesus builds His Church.
ok, i'm almost there, if you will just show me where Peter is going to be my advocate come judgement day.

And even if you can't, understand that i at least have no objection to your following Peter ok;
as long as you recognize that i don't have to.
 

amadeus

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This has nothing to do with learned Protestant scholars who have studied the Bible all their lives and write reference manuals to aid us dummies in understanding it better. You are trying to raise yourself above them with a pious "wisdom of this world" quote which is completely off topic.
Adam Clarke Commentary
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

Face the biblical truth: Peter is the ROCK upon which Jesus builds His Church.
All I did was quote a scripture with precisely zero commentary.
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
Smile! :):D

You don't want to discuss anyway. All you want to do is expound and much of what you put forth is not even yours.
 
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epostle1

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All I did was quote a scripture with precisely zero commentary.
Yea, which has nothing to do with the discussion.
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
Smile! :):D

You don't want to discuss anyway. All you want to do is expound and much of what you put forth is not even yours.
So what. I can't appeal to Protestant scholars because you disagree with them, I certainly can't appeal to Catholic scholars because you will reject them out-of-hand, I can't appeal the the Early Church Fathers because you have nothing to do with them. The only thing you will accept is whatever agrees with your private opinions.
You can have the last word, further discussion with you is pointless.
 

epostle1

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The basic assumptions the typical Evangelical has about the papacy are part of the wallpaper in the Evangelical world. Being brought up in an independent Bible Church, I was taught that our little fellowship of Christians meeting to study the Bible, pray and sing gospel songs was like the ‘early Christians’ meeting in their house churches. I had a mental picture of ‘Catholic Pope’ which I had pieced together from a whole range of biased sources. When I heard the word ‘pope’ I pictured a corpulent Italian with the juicy name “Borgia” who drank a lot of wine, was supposed to be celibate, but who not only had mistresses, but sons who he called ‘nephews’. This ‘pope’ had big banquets in one of his many palaces, was very rich, rode out to war when he felt like it and liked to tell Michelangelo how to paint. That this ‘pope’ was a later invention of the corrupt Catholic Church was simply part of the whole colorful story.

But of course, the idea that the florid Renaissance pope is typical of all popes is not a Catholic invention, but a Protestant one. Protestantism has been compelled to rewrite all history according to it’s own necessities. As French historian Augustin Thierry has written, “To live, Protestantism found itself forced to build up a history of its own.”
Authority of the First Popes - Fr Longenecker at Patheos
 

ScottA

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The basic assumptions the typical Evangelical has about the papacy are part of the wallpaper in the Evangelical world. Being brought up in an independent Bible Church, I was taught that our little fellowship of Christians meeting to study the Bible, pray and sing gospel songs was like the ‘early Christians’ meeting in their house churches. I had a mental picture of ‘Catholic Pope’ which I had pieced together from a whole range of biased sources. When I heard the word ‘pope’ I pictured a corpulent Italian with the juicy name “Borgia” who drank a lot of wine, was supposed to be celibate, but who not only had mistresses, but sons who he called ‘nephews’. This ‘pope’ had big banquets in one of his many palaces, was very rich, rode out to war when he felt like it and liked to tell Michelangelo how to paint. That this ‘pope’ was a later invention of the corrupt Catholic Church was simply part of the whole colorful story.

But of course, the idea that the florid Renaissance pope is typical of all popes is not a Catholic invention, but a Protestant one. Protestantism has been compelled to rewrite all history according to it’s own necessities. As French historian Augustin Thierry has written, “To live, Protestantism found itself forced to build up a history of its own.”
Authority of the First Popes - Fr Longenecker at Patheos
I wouldn't know about Protestantism, but I do know that if you trace back all wild fish stories...the fish is actually very small.
 

epostle1

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I wouldn't know about Protestantism, but I do know that if you trace back all wild fish stories...the fish is actually very small.
The canon of the NT is not a wild fish story. We Catholics eagerly await a non-contradictory, plausible alternate Protestant explanation of how Christianity came to obtain the present NT Canon. Such insurmountable obstacles are representative of the reasons many of us former Protestants felt compelled to accept Catholicism, not some dreamt-up psycho-babble of an alleged infantile desire for fideistic dogma-without-reflection-and-exegesis, as James White would have it.

I, who follow none as my chief but Christ, am associated in communion with thy blessedness, that is, with the See of Peter. On that rock the Church is built, I know.
(St. Jerome, Epistle 15, writing to Pope Damasus)
An interesting fish story from the 4th century. But you don't accept the Early Church Fathers because none of them were Protestant. You have no history so you are forced to dispense with history as fish stories.

I eagerly await a non-contradictory, plausible alternate Protestant explanation of how Christianity came to obtain the present NT Canon. Fat chance.
 

bbyrd009

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You don't want to discuss anyway.
it does get tedious, being around someone stuck in Defense mode.
I eagerly await a non-contradictory
could you please stop, then? or maybe even like take one or two days a week off?
i mean most Catholics are great, but do you have to be so rabidly Catholic that you cannot even get along with a mild-mannered seeker?
 

BreadOfLife

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a better answer i guess is "everything," but more important might be the position you put yourself in where forgiveness is concerned here.
In other words - you stuck your foot in your mouth again.
That's what I thought . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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In other words to say something is objective depends upon who is defining the word. Obviously since truth is absolute, it cannot absolutely be considered objective.
Objective Truth doesn't depend on who is defining the word. That's YOUR position - not mine.
Objective truth is something that is true - regardless of somebody's opinions.

YOUR statement, "Truth is not objective" is a fallacy because it is a mere opinion.
You're a moral relativist . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Yes but the only truth you know is catholism and that is a complete lie. And you cant offend me, i have worse.
And, as I've been telling your friend Amadeus, Truth is not an opinion.
The truth that the Church teaches is true - regardless of your rejection of it . . .
 

bbyrd009

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Nope - I want to yto tell me for the first time.
You've been dodging this question for several posts now.
ah, and my witnesses? have they been dodging too? so, we're all just dodging some responsibility to you here, and have not already made abundantly plain what it is we are talking about right now? you are the only one who does not know, then? Well, i guess we don't know, huh, i am maybe not being fair.

maybe a poll, would that sway you? Or i am open to suggestions here. Not sure how to word it neutrally, "Has BoL been informed many times, or none?" something like that i guess