Catholics

[epostle1]

For the most part non-Catholic believers are not challenging it. They are simply ignoring it or they may even be unaware that someone believes it. Is this a bad thing, if they are holding onto Jesus? Is not he the Alpha and the Omega rather than Peter or any other apostle or disciple or Christian?

For Peter to supplant or replace the authority of Jesus is unbiblical. That is not what the Primacy of Peter means and has never been taught by the Church. It's a straw man fallacy. Jesus rules the heavenly and earthly Church, Peter and his successors rule only the earthly Church, they are not the same.

It's not a bad thing to hold on to Jesus but why would Jesus want anyone to reject the human earthly authority He set up? You are setting up another false dichotomy, pitting Jesus against Peter.

It doesn't work that way. Peter's role as spokesman for all the apostles and leader of the Church is strongly indicated throughout the NT, too many verses to ignore, but ignoring them is part of 16th century politics.

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are exceptions to the rule).

Matt 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Act 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. What other man has walked on water? This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among apostles and works healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles.

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the only "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

We don't even need Matthew 16:18.

Scripture Catholic - THE PRIMACY OF PETER

 

[bbyrd009]

Should forgive him any way becuase thats what"Christians" do.

if only, huh?

 

[bbyrd009]

It's not a bad thing to hold on to Jesus but why would Jesus want anyone to reject the human earthly authority He set up?

talk about a fallacy. I mean, how do you treat 1Sam8 and all the support for "no earthly intercessor" in Scripture? Paul plainly told us "i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock."

It becomes obvious wadr that you have been preached some bit of Scripture completely out of context, and taught to completely ignore or misrepresent other Scripture that would paint a fuller picture.

my guess is that one in this position would then go on to support the most obvious manifestations of the world, serve in the military, vote, seek God inside the camp, etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

so iow now you are able to manufacture doctrine out of nothing, having been indoctrinated into a lie? Does your "bible" change "Jerusalem" into "Rome," too, along with all of the other changes?

 

[bbyrd009]

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. What other man has walked on water? This faith ultimately did not fail.

ha, you mean Peter didn't drown because he realized what a putz he was being and called on Christ

Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Peter is the only to be called "Satan," too

Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

and then he immediately proves that he does not understand, lol. He does this more than once, actually; every time Christ states "it is given for you to understand," Peter takes the lead in not understanding.

imo it is better to understand that a perception is built up @ Peter, whereby we are led to identify with him, and so then should take the lessons that Peter could not learn--at least in the moment, surely he finally ditched his RCC leanings and got wise, too--as lessons for ourselves. Iow you identify with Peter, so understand why he was called "Satan" by Christ, not be making the guy your king, sheesh.

it's like listening to Chucky recite Scripture or something, c'mon bro. Put the gun down already. Understand the significance of Peter denying Christ three times.

Christ is the only one who will never leave you; Peter will not be anywhere to be found when you need him most, ok.

 

[bbyrd009]

We don't even need Matthew 16:18.

you don't even need Jesus, sounds like

Scripture Catholic

oh, there's the problem, you got an oxymoron right there

 

[epostle1]

Despite your limited understanding - Protestant churches teach Christianity. There is a difference between LDS, Unitarian/Universalists, and Oneness Pentecostalism AND Protestant church doctrine.

Yes, it's quite noticeable.

Also, Lutherans and Anglicans have a better understanding of the teaching of the Eucharist - they are Protestants.

They are inconsistent with the unanimous consensus of the ECF. Their "better understanding" is foreign to the first 1600 years of Christianity, which means nothing to Protestants.

Just because you demand black and white dualism in your Catholicism doesnt mean others are going to comply.

Answering false assertions, correcting myths and lies, and dealing with childish insults from the Christian Taliban is not demanding black and white dualism. It's taking a stand.

 

[bbyrd009]

Answering false assertions, correcting myths and lies, and dealing with childish insults from the Christian Taliban is not demanding black and white dualism. It's taking a stand.

it is insisting that someone is between you and Christ, and Christians will not ever go for this i don't think.
You are trying to validate the RCC by adding a veneer of "Christian" onto it, rather than going and edifying other Catholics on a Catholic site, why i am not quite sure. I doubt most people are really interested in judging you, tbh.

i volunteer with Catholic Charities, and i have noticed a big divide between them and the church, kind of the Elephant in the Room, just something i noticed and thought about commenting on, and then decided it was apparently a sore spot, so what would be the point.

But now i am seeing a possible why for all that, i guess.

 

[bbyrd009]

Answering false assertions, correcting myths and lies, and dealing with childish insults from the Christian Taliban is not demanding black and white dualism. It's taking a stand.

can't help but be minded of an over-sensitive kid who is getting their buttons pushed by all their friends, simply because they have buttons to push. "When i defend myself, i am attacked."

understand how you compel people to push your buttons, as it is the best cure for you.

 

[amadeus]

For Peter to supplant or replace the authority of Jesus is unbiblical. That is not what the Primacy of Peter means and has never been taught by the Church. It's a straw man fallacy. Jesus rules the heavenly and earthly Church, Peter and his successors rule only the earthly Church, they are not the same.

Two Churches? That is likely what comes from using man's logic. What is heaven and what is earth? Who is ruling what?

It's not a bad thing to hold on to Jesus but why would Jesus want anyone to reject the human earthly authority He set up? You are setting up another false dichotomy, pitting Jesus against Peter.

No I lifted up the name of Jesus for there is no other name under heaven whereby we may be saved, is there? I never set up any man against Jesus. I am afraid that was the doing of other men early on in your church and now continued by you and others. In the OT direct access to God was unavailable to most, but with Jesus it became available to whosoever will. Why build up a new step up [or down] to come unto Him?

It doesn't work that way. Peter's role as spokesman for all the apostles and leader of the Church is strongly indicated throughout the NT, too many verses to ignore, but ignoring them is part of 16th century politics.

So then fight against those who uphold 16th century politics today. Unfortunately I doubt that a single one has survived.

"And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.? Mark 9:7

 

[bbyrd009]

So then fight against those who uphold 16th century politics today. Unfortunately I doubt that a single one has survived.

funny you mention this, our return to feudalism is being noted in many venues right now, and you are talking to a Feudal Enforcer, after all.

return to the feudal system - Google Search

 

[amadeus]

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are exceptions to the rule).

And the apostle Paul is mentioned 163 times in the same part of scripture if we do not include the times he is called Saul. But while we are counting Jesus is mentioned 983 times in the part of scripture.

But, why are we concerned about Peter or Paul or any of the apostles at all:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

As the apostle Paul wrote:

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Matt 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Act 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

And is an apostle a ruler or even a shepherd of the saints of God?

 

[bbyrd009]

And the apostle Paul is mentioned 163 times in the same part of scripture if we do not include the times he is called Saul. But while we are counting Jesus is mentioned 983 times in the part of scripture.

lol, oops!

 

[amadeus]

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. What other man has walked on water? This faith ultimately did not fail.

No, many others have walked on water, but then what is the water? The scripture is surely speaking of something besides H2O?

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

He was also perhaps the first to be called satan by Jesus.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

And then Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon, Elijah along with a long lists of others received no special revelations from God?

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

And who is it that crushes those with mixed messages as they would try to blend together? [Dan 2:34] That is also a Rock, is it not, but probably not Peter.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Actually what Peter had received he also gave away freely:

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 3:6

Then the healed lame man had the same keys along with a multitude of others who have received them.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

Christ has many representatives on earth who bear the Word of God and speak it:

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:14

 

[amadeus]

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matt 20:16

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

So then Peter took it upon himself many times to be the first to speak rather than the last. Therefore again...

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matt 20:16

Doesn't look to me like Peter qualified himself as first according to God's way.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Because his name is mentioned, he is the leader?

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

Was Peter the only one who would be a fisher of men?

"And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt 4:19

"And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men." Mark 1:17

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Again Peter does a lot of questioning and he speaks a lot, but remember Moses and his brother Aaron...

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Even if this were significant, it would still be quite a jump from there to Pope. He still is not following God's rule on this:

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." Matt 20:16

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

On the mountain of transfiguration only Peter stuck his foot in his mouth by opening his mouth.

"A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards." Prov 29:11

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

And this makes him their leader? Are we not all to pray for the brethren?

This thing of going through all of those verses is futile as whatever I see or say won't change your mind in any case.

Peter was important without a doubt in the eyes of Jesus, but that does not make him or anyone a Pope.

 

[amadeus]

funny you mention this, our return to feudalism is being noted in many venues right now, and you are talking to a Feudal Enforcer, after all.

return to the feudal system - Google Search

That is interesting take on our friend's position. God would like for people to subject themselves to Him, but people push hard to take hold of or retain top positions in His kingdom without considering what Jesus said to John and James who wanted to sit on his right and on his left. Never mind John and James. Remember where the Pharisees were regularly.

Has our friend forgotten about starting in the "lowest room"?

 

[mjrhealth]

can't help but be minded of an over-sensitive kid who is getting their buttons pushed by all their friends, simply because they have buttons to push. "When i defend myself, i am attacked."

understand how you compel people to push your buttons, as it is the best cure for you.

Keep pushing teh truth at him, soon enough you will go on his ignore list. Hew wont have a leg to stand on, on judgement day, " I didnt know". ??

 

[bbyrd009]

well, i'm guessing that if he forgives, he will be forgiven, any fealty to Peter notwithstanding i guess.
How one gets to the first from so far into the second i can't envision, but then i am not God either.

 

[bbyrd009]

John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

lol, yikes. Knowing is the very worst thing a human could do, i guess

is there anything you do not have an answer for, k?
imo that is where we might come together

 

[BreadOfLife]

Despite your limited understanding - Protestant churches teach Christianity. There is a difference between LDS, Unitarian/Universalists, and Oneness Pentecostalism AND Protestant church doctrine.
Also, Lutherans and Anglicans have a better understanding of the teaching of the Eucharist - they are Protestants.
Just because you demand black and white dualism in your Catholicism doesnt mean others are going to comply.

Anglicans and Lutherans don't believe in Transubstantiation. they believe in CONsubstantiation.
Big difference.

Most of the rest of you reject it altogether - so how can you call yourself "Christian" when you reject a core belief of Christianity?
It should be easy enough for you to answer . . .