Catholics

[bbyrd009]

Creation can only reflect truth; only God can can generate truth.

wow, this is nice, imo. I might try to come poke some holes in it, after i think on it a bit. Not sure how any argument for/against can help but become circular though...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wow....’the sun is hot’ is a comparison, not a truth, but i dont let that slow you down....

Creation can only reflect truth; only God can can generate truth.

And unless you've become the mouthpiece for Amadeus - I was responding to his question:
"And is not the statement that your your beliefs are objective truth while mine are wrong also a mere opinion?"

I didn't say that the sun generated truth.
Therefore - the response I gave about the sun was accurate.

It is an undeniable fact that the sun is hot. It's not up for debate, not is it a matter of opinion.

 

[ScottA]

Absolutely - under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised:

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Jesus promised His Church that WHATEVER it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Now - here's a little history lesson on just HOW the Holy spirit guided His Church to declare the Canon of Scripture:

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

Now - the REAL question is: Why do YOU adhere to the Canon of the New Testament that the Holy Spirit declared through the Catholic Church?
And - why do adhere to a different OT Canon than the one that the Holy Spirit declared though Catholic Church??

In other words - why do you accept the one and NOT the other??

Thanks for carrying the water.

But there is still the matter of choosing not to walk in the spirit, but rather in the ways of men, i.e., focusing on and promoting Peter, rather than exclusively focusing on the spirit of God. Which is not to say the Holy Spirit was not involved, for He was, just not as you have made your case, but rather that in spite of your efforts, He insured the going forth of the gospel while giving men their shameful due.

Again, thanks for your service. While you are at it, you might explain the "different OT Canon."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks for carrying the water.

But there is still the matter of choosing not to walk in the spirit, but rather in the ways of men, i.e., focusing on and promoting Peter, rather than exclusively focusing on the spirit of God. Which is not to say the Holy Spirit was not involved, for He was, just not as you have made your case, but rather that in spite of your efforts, He insured the going forth of the gospel while giving men their shameful due.

Again, thanks for your service. While you are at it, you might explain the "different OT Canon."

Thank you for that cop-out of an answer - but, I understand what a shock it might be for some to know that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to declare the Canon of Scripture.

As for the OT Canon - surely you know that the Protestant OT Canon excludes the 7 Deuterocanonical Books that are in the Catholic Canon, don't you?
They include: Judith, Tobit, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Esther and Daniel.

Open your Bible and you will see that these Books are not in it because they were jettisoned by your Protestant Fathers.

 

[ScottA]

Thank you for that cop-out of an answer - but, I understand what a shock it might be for some to know that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to declare the Canon of Scripture.

Oh but I said, I do not deny that the Holy Spirit guided the catholic church to declare the canon of scripture. But likewise you will receive what Israel got in Saul, having made the same choice.

As for the OT Canon - surely you know that the Protestant OT Canon excludes the 7 Deuterocanonical Books that are in the Catholic Canon, don't you?
They include: Judith, Tobit, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Esther and Daniel.

Open your Bible and you will see that these Books are not in it because they were jettisoned by your Protestant Fathers.

So then you do not accredit the Holy Spirit after all, but claim that the catholics are the keepers of a more pure gospel?

You give yourselves too much credit. But it is not you who have providence over God's word, but rather God alone has providence...and you have misread history.

"So that He forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh,
The tent He had placed among men,
And delivered His strength into captivity,

 

[amadeus]

ha c'mon amadeus, you must know that when he does it it's different!

Yes, of course, he is right simply because he is Catholic. I do not remember being so stubborn about my faith when I was a 'good' Catholic.

 

[amadeus]

Nope.
That's like asking whether or not the sun is hot simply because I say so.
It's hot - and that's just a fact. The fact that I agree that it's hot has nothing to do with it.

At least you understand my position on what I believe in a sense then. I assure you that I believe that I am right just as strongly as you apparently believe that you are.

That being the case, the key should be found in how we treat others who are different than us or who believe things differently than we do. God is not looking at the doctrines or the organizations as closely as He is looking at the hearts.

The two greatest commandments as pronounced by Jesus cannot be ignored or neglected by anyone who really wants to please God.

 

[aspen]

And unless you've become the mouthpiece for Amadeus - I was responding to his question:
"And is not the statement that your your beliefs are objective truth while mine are wrong also a mere opinion?"

I didn't say that the sun generated truth.
Therefore - the response I gave about the sun was accurate.

It is an undeniable fact that the sun is hot. It's not up for debate, not is it a matter of opinion.

Hot and cold are comparisons, not absolutes. Our sun is cold compared to other suns in the universe.

Arguing with you is pointless because your private understanding trumps reality, constantly. Contrary to the habits of our boneheaded President, doubling down doesnt make your opinion correct

 

[aspen]

Yes, of course, he is right simply because he is Catholic. I do not remember being so stubborn about my faith when I was a 'good' Catholic.

He is definately a special breed of Catholic.....

 

[amadeus]

He is definately a special breed of Catholic.....

There are "special breeds" of various peoples it would seem. The odd or difficult thing is when they insist on that their opposers are hell bound. I really cannot believe that God is like that and it is difficult for me at times to understand why other are. Even if we wrong in what we do believe, [but we do believe in God], will not God render a very fair judgment? According to some apparently not. The good thing is that such people will not be rendering that final judgment against others.

 

[mjrhealth]

And, as I've been telling your friend Amadeus, Truth is not an opinion.
The truth that the Church teaches is true - regardless of your rejection of it . . .

Teh truth your church teaches, the word to be noted is "your" church has nothing to do with God and everything to do with this world.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hot and cold are comparisons, not absolutes. Our sun is cold compared to other suns in the universe.

Arguing with you is pointless because your private understanding trumps reality, constantly. Contrary to the habits of our boneheaded President, doubling down doesnt make your opinion correct

And arguihng with YOU is pointless because you refuse to see truth.

In comparison with other suns - our sun is still hot, but may not be as hot as others.
This is just another one of your cop-outs . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh but I said, I do not deny that the Holy Spirit guided the catholic church to declare the canon of scripture. But likewise you will receive what Israel got in Saul, having made the same choice.

We didn't make the choice to build the Church on Peter - Jesus did.
YOUR problem is with Him - not me . . .

So then you do not accredit the Holy Spirit after all, but claim that the catholics are the keepers of a more pure gospel?

You give yourselves too much credit. But it is not you who have providence over God's word, but rather God alone has providence...and you have misread history.

"So that He forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh,
The tent He had placed among men,
And delivered His strength into captivity,

No - the plain fact of the matter is that YOU and most of Protestantism rejected what the Holy Spirit revealed in favor of what mere men decided.
You guys chose to delete those 7 Books that Jesus and the NT writers all quoted from or alluded to over 150 times in the NT.

Good luck with that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, of course, he is right simply because he is Catholic. I do not remember being so stubborn about my faith when I was a 'good' Catholic.

You may have "been" Catholic - but I doubt you were very faithful.
Unfortunately, you were an ignorant Catholic who was seduced away from the truth in favor of a partial truth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There are "special breeds" of various peoples it would seem. The odd or difficult thing is when they insist on that their opposers are hell bound. I really cannot believe that God is like that and it is difficult for me at times to understand why other are. Even if we wrong in what we do believe, [but we do believe in God], will not God render a very fair judgment? According to some apparently not. The good thing is that such people will not be rendering that final judgment against others.

And the mark of an ungodly person is one who lies about others because it violates those commandments..
I never said that you or anybody else was "hell bound." I never even implied it.

If you guys can put your heads together and TRY to be honest for a change - we might have a fruitful conversation here . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, of course, he is right simply because he is Catholic. I do not remember being so stubborn about my faith when I was a 'good' Catholic.

hey, if Saul could be converted, then so can...anyone, i guess. Ppl are often given the idea that God needs to be defended, and we natch attach our perceptions of God to our religious sect, because the sect has an agenda, right (not saying that agendas are necessarily "bad.")

 

[BreadOfLife]

Teh truth your church teaches, the word to be noted is "your" church has nothing to do with God and everything to do with this world.

If you were able to construct a cohesive sentence - I might respond to it.
But, as it is, you aren't making any - as usual . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

I assure you that I believe that I am right just as strongly as you apparently believe that you are.

you know what i am discovering? Ha, well, what you have just basically illuminated, i guess; that beliefs are self serving yack, for the most part. As opposed to faith iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

There are "special breeds" of various peoples it would seem. The odd or difficult thing is when they insist on that their opposers are hell bound. I really cannot believe that God is like that and it is difficult for me at times to understand why other are. Even if we wrong in what we do believe, [but we do believe in God], will not God render a very fair judgment? According to some apparently not. The good thing is that such people will not be rendering that final judgment against others.

it prolly seems evil in the moment, but we actually need...opposers, in order for truth to be contrasted with lies, or i guess "untruth" would be a better way to put it, as the deceived usually are not lying intentionally, i don't think. So, the deceived serve a purpose.

 

[amadeus]

You may have "been" Catholic - but I doubt you were very faithful.
Unfortunately, you were an ignorant Catholic who was seduced away from the truth in favor of a partial truth.

I guess it depends upon what it means to be faithful. You are judging me by what you think you see now, but you know nothing of what was well over 50 years ago. I was out of church, any church, for 14 years from the time I was last actively Catholic to the time I was actively anything else. There was no direct connection between the two.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7