Redemption ?

[EndTimeWine]

Ummm, first of all - this entire angry tirade reflects a deep ignorance of the prefix "Co". Then again, it may be a simple a refusal to acknowledge that it doesn't mean what YOU want it to mean. YOU want it to mean that the Church is trying to tell us that Mary is another Redeemer. And, as I already explained to you - that is a lie.

As for Mary's Immaculate Conception - what does that have to do with what we are talking about??
Besides - your question answers itself:
"Was Mary Immaculately conceived in her Mother's womb or when the Holy Spirit came upon her and the Power of the most High over shadowed her?"

"Conception", by definition occurs in the womb.

And spiritual conception? Was the Conception of Christ Immaculate?To be "Born Again" means? And is there a spiritual conception to being "Born Again"? God bless!

 

[tabletalk]

here is the new "MAGNIFICAT" = not the one that goes 'my soul magnifies my God ' etc but "I am born again, I am a new sinless creation. no more in condemnation here in the grace of God I stand" - twinc

Scripture says "born again" (born from above). Scripture says no more condemnation in Christ Jesus. So who says a "new sinless creation"?
And, the born-again people do magnify God.

 

[twinc]

Scripture says "born again" (born from above). Scripture says no more condemnation in Christ Jesus. So who says a "new sinless creation"?
And, the born-again people do magnify God.

what born again people = not Mary = henceforth all generations shall not call me blessed or born again - twinc

 

[EndTimeWine]

And spiritual conception?

Ummm, first of all - this entire angry tirade reflects a deep ignorance of the prefix "Co". Then again, it may be a simple a refusal to acknowledge that it doesn't mean what YOU want it to mean. YOU want it to mean that the Church is trying to tell us that Mary is another Redeemer. And, as I already explained to you - that is a lie.

As for Mary's Immaculate Conception - what does that have to do with what we are talking about??
Besides - your question answers itself:
"Was Mary Immaculately conceived in her Mother's womb or when the Holy Spirit came upon her and the Power of the most High over shadowed her?"

"Conception", by definition occurs in the womb.

Why is it an angry tirade? When one is not angry why is it a tirade to disagree?
◄ John 3 ►

Jesus and Nicodemus

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”a

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

5Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” Jesus replied, “and do you not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.b 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

There is an Immaculate Conception for all who are "BORN AGAIN". For Mary, it was instantaneous for the purpose of the Incarnation of Christ. What the RCC states: She was Immaculate Conceived in her mother's womb, this contradicts scripture, and scripture MUST support ALL interpreted Dogma... or any erroneous thought concerning anything can be called Dogma or can misinterpret messages. So since, the Apparition of Mary to Bernadette passes the 1John 4 test, my interpretation must be correct. The lamp stand has been removed from midst of the RCC because of her adulteries.

God has saved the best wine for the end of the wedding feast. He in essence did not put all His eggs in her basket. He has used her like anyone uses a prostitute and harlot. He worked His will and now He is done. It is a new season that is upon us. And when the Beast system Babylon and the Harlot who rides upon it receives the blow which is coming, Rev.18 the Hallelujah will commence. Rev. 19. God is in control of everything!
And Mary is still a visitor of souls ; as she was purposed to be and is demonstrated in her visitation to Elisabeth. All Mary's messages have been to the laity and little ones. The hierarchy never accept her messages initially, until they see the jubilee of the little people. Her messages always, admonish the hierarchy and eventual cast them down; as the Song of Mary stated 2000 yrs. ago God purposes this for the arrogant and proud.

Luke 1:46-55English Standard Version (ESV)
Mary's Song of Praise: The Magnificat
46 And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
Through her God cast the mighty from their thrones. For she reins WITH the REDEEMER and Saviour who she gives all glory to.
Fatima tells what is going to happen to Rome and the Vatican. All her errors are going to be disclosed and the Word will make things right for all people. Dogma must be supported by scripture. The Vatican has lied about her messages, twisted them and withheld. What do you think the end of this will be? You yourself stated: "Sin has consequences". What, no consequences for Vatican liars though? The Vatican can two step and back pedal concerning Fatima all it wants, and so can you. If you accept the Fatima message you know the Vatican is lying. And since the Fatima message passes the 1John4 test , in the confessing Christ has come in the flesh you must know something is wrong in the Vatican?

 

[epostle1]

Isaiah 28:9-13 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (STOP we have our answer). For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken".

Peace in Christ Jesus.

He will SPEAK to his people, it doesn't say "he will write down for his people to read later." The SPOKEN word always precedes the written word. It doesn't prove sola scriptura, it proves sola Isaiah, and material sufficiency embraces all of it anyway.

And Isaiah is not a Church Father.

 

[epostle1]

You said: "What you have to prove is that Tradition and Magisterium are not needed."
The problem is not that tradition and the church are not needed, it's that they are not infallible, as the Catholic Church claims.

That's because you have a false definition of infallibility. Tell me what you think it means and we can go from there.

 

[epostle1]

Is there anything there that any Christian couldn't claim for himself or herself? Or is this something that Mary had excusively or "more of"?

I have heard the arguement that we are all co-redeemers. I don't believe it necessarily, but if its true why are we discussing it with Mary? Is she more of a co-redeemer than others?

Why hasn't anyone talked about Paul being a co-redeemer or Peter? Why isn't twinc or BOL being addressed as such? Or 101G or Endtimewine?

In 17 years on internet boards I have never heard anyone say, "Now my brother and co-redeemer... Lets not forget the words of Barnabas the Co-redeemer..."

And if there are other redeemers... Even minor ones.... Wouldn't that make Jesus a co-redeemer also? Even though he did the brunt of the work... Isn't he merely a co-redeemer too?

So why is it that with all the co-redeemers in the world, people are only giving that term to Mary? And why Twinc would you speak of Mary's sinlessness by grace if we all have it? We are all Christians, so why have I never heard Mary calked "Mary the Christian"?

I already brought this up. We are all co-redeemers when we pray for someone. But we are not THE Redeemer, our subordinate redeemer-ship is because of Christ's sole redeemer-ship and no other reason. We mare not supplanting or competing with Christ in any way, we are CO-operating with Him. It's not "either/or", it's "both/and".

the problem appears to be that like you here most cannot or will not interpret properly but will even claim inspiration and guidance by the H/S - WHAT IS STATED HERE is that those who claim being specially born again new sinless creations by the grace of God refuse this to Mary - it is the same with claiming to be infallible and inspired and guided by the H/S except Catholics and definitely not the Pope - twinc

Because you don't understand what infallibly means, and apparently you don't care.

 

[tabletalk]

That's because you have a false definition of infallibility. Tell me what you think it means and we can go from there.

My definition is fallible (can fail), because mankind is fallible (which includes the creeds, councils, Popes, Bishops, and Protestant Elders. By faith, I believe the Scriptures are not fallible (cannot fail). Such as Isaiah 55:
10. “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11. So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

 

[101G]

He will SPEAK to his people, it doesn't say "he will write down for his people to read later." The SPOKEN word always precedes the written word. It doesn't prove sola scriptura, it proves sola Isaiah, and material sufficiency embraces all of it anyway.

And Isaiah is not a Church Father.

oh yes, he wrote it down for us. that's why we have so much corruption in the church today. and two Isaiah wrote more about the church than your church father would ever know about the church. we see evidence of this right now.

and three, that's why he, God himself, came to teach us his word, because we couldn't. he through holy men (who was earnest, and I suggest you look up that word earnest) have written down his Holy Words. it seem they got it right, what's wrong with us?....... maybe wickedness in us instead of the Holy Spirit. today's men (not earnest) are so corrupt, can't lead a sheep no where except to hell. what a shame. this is why people are breaking from traditions, because men are teaching just traditions and not Jesus Christ. there in no Holy Ghost in none of us. 2 Corinthians 4:1-5 "Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake".

Peace in Christ Jesus/Yeshua.

 

[epostle1]

oh yes, he wrote it down for us. that's why we have so much corruption in the church today. and two Isaiah wrote more about the church than your church father would ever know about the church. we see evidence of this right now.

Isaiah has always been a great saint, prophet and Patriarch of the Church. He is read out loud regularly.

and three, that's why he, God himself, came to teach us his word, because we couldn't. he through holy men (who was earnest, and I suggest you look up that word earnest) have written down his Holy Words. it seem they got it right, what's wrong with us?....... maybe wickedness in us instead of the Holy Spirit. today's men (not earnest) are so corrupt, can't lead a sheep no where except to hell. what a shame.

Everyone is wicked and corrupt except you?

this is why people are breaking from traditions, because men are teaching just traditions and not Jesus Christ.

I know of no church or community that teaches just traditions

there in no Holy Ghost in none of us. 2 Corinthians 4:1-5 "Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake".
Peace in Christ Jesus/Yeshua.

You are quoting from a Catholic book. Only Protestants separate scripture from tradition, they are inter-related. No tradition, no scripture. It's almost impossible to explain what tradition means (good and bad) to a sola scripturist, they just don't get it.

When did the Church stop teaching the Lordship of Jesus Christ? That would have been a monumentous event. And no one noticed until the middle of a revolt? This is where you are forced to re-write history.

My definition is fallible (can fail), because mankind is fallible (which includes the creeds, councils, Popes, Bishops, and Protestant Elders.

That is correct. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, none of these are infallible. Would you agree that the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) was infallible?

By faith, I believe the Scriptures are not fallible (cannot fail). Such as Isaiah 55:
10. “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11. So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

I agree that scriptures are inspired, but that is not the same as infallible, which is several steps down from inspired.

 

[101G]

When did the Church stop teaching the Lordship of Jesus Christ?

when you put him as the second person in your belief. that right there is blasphemy.

This is where you are forced to re-write history

NO, this is where we departed from "EVIL".

 

[twinc]

when you put him as the second person in your belief. that right there is blasphemy.

NO, this is where we departed from "EVIL".

who is we and who is us that is evil - be reasonable and sane - twinc

 

[FHII]

I already brought this up. We are all co-redeemers when we pray for someone. But we are not THE Redeemer, our subordinate redeemer-ship is because of Christ's sole redeemer-ship and no other reason. We mare not supplanting or competing with Christ in any way, we are CO-operating with Him. It's not "either/or", it's "both/and".

That doesn't answer the full question. If we are all co-redeemers how come I don't hear about Paul the co-redeemer or Stephan the co-redeemer? Why aren't we addressing ourselves as co-redeemer? Why are we discussing Mary as the co-redeemer? I believe the reason is because it's an attempt to get out of a bad position.

but here's something new: This thread calls her because she supposedly gave Jesus his blood and thus that makes her the co-redeemer. Well... Since we are all co-redeemers does that mean we gave Jesus his blood too? Of course not. The whole arguement is nonsensical.


winc said: ↑
the problem appears to be that like you here most cannot or will not interpret properly but will even claim inspiration and guidance by the H/S - WHAT IS STATED HERE is that those who claim being specially born again new sinless creations by the grace of God refuse this to Mary - it is the same with claiming to be infallible and inspired and guided by the H/S except Catholics and definitely not the Pope - twinc

Because you don't understand what infallibly means, and apparently you don't care.

Don't be so hard on Twinc.... I think he might be on your side.

 

[Dcopymope]

That doesn't answer the full question. If we are all co-redeemers how come I don't hear about Paul the co-redeemer or Stephan the co-redeemer? Why aren't we addressing ourselves as co-redeemer? Why are we discussing Mary as the co-redeemer? I believe the reason is because it's an attempt to get out of a bad position.

but here's something new: This thread calls her because she supposedly gave Jesus his blood and thus that makes her the co-redeemer. Well... Since we are all co-redeemers does that mean we gave Jesus his blood too? Of course not. The whole arguement is nonsensical.

(Hebrews 4:11-16) "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. {12} For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {13} Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. {14} Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. {15} For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. {16} Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

I guess being "co-redeemers" also makes us high priests like Jesus, am I right or is this more blasphemy?

 

[BreadOfLife]

And spiritual conception? Was the Conception of Christ Immaculate?To be "Born Again" means? And is there a spiritual conception to being "Born Again"? God bless!

You're back-pedaling.
The Immaculate Conception refers to MARY'S conception - not Jesus's.

YOUR question was:
"Was Mary Immaculately conceived in her Mother's womb or when the Holy Spirit came upon her and the Power of the most High over shadowed her?"

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why is it an angry tirade? When one is not angry why is it a tirade to disagree?
◄ John 3 ►

Jesus and Nicodemus
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”a
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
5Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” Jesus replied, “and do you not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.b 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

There is an Immaculate Conception for all who are "BORN AGAIN". For Mary, it was instantaneous for the purpose of the Incarnation of Christ. What the RCC states: She was Immaculate Conceived in her mother's womb, this contradicts scripture, and scripture MUST support ALL interpreted Dogma... or any erroneous thought concerning anything can be called Dogma or can misinterpret messages. So since, the Apparition of Mary to Bernadette passes the 1John 4 test, my interpretation must be correct. The lamp stand has been removed from midst of the RCC because of her adulteries.

God has saved the best wine for the end of the wedding feast. He in essence did not put all His eggs in her basket. He has used her like anyone uses a prostitute and harlot. He worked His will and now He is done. It is a new season that is upon us. And when the Beast system Babylon and the Harlot who rides upon it receives the blow which is coming, Rev.18 the Hallelujah will commence. Rev. 19. God is in control of everything!
And Mary is still a visitor of souls ; as she was purposed to be and is demonstrated in her visitation to Elisabeth. All Mary's messages have been to the laity and little ones. The hierarchy never accept her messages initially, until they see the jubilee of the little people. Her messages always, admonish the hierarchy and eventual cast them down; as the Song of Mary stated 2000 yrs. ago God purposes this for the arrogant and proud.

Luke 1:46-55English Standard Version (ESV)
Mary's Song of Praise: The Magnificat
46 And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
Through her God cast the mighty from their thrones. For she reins WITH the REDEEMER and Saviour who she gives all glory to.
Fatima tells what is going to happen to Rome and the Vatican. All her errors are going to be disclosed and the Word will make things right for all people. Dogma must be supported by scripture. The Vatican has lied about her messages, twisted them and withheld. What do you think the end of this will be? You yourself stated: "Sin has consequences". What, no consequences for Vatican liars though? The Vatican can two step and back pedal concerning Fatima all it wants, and so can you. If you accept the Fatima message you know the Vatican is lying. And since the Fatima message passes the 1John4 test , in the confessing Christ has come in the flesh you must know something is wrong in the Vatican?

HUH??
There is an Immaculate Conception for ALL who are born again??
WHERE does Scripture say this?? This is complete nonsense of your own making.

When we are born again in the spirit - we are BORN again - not CONCEIVED again.
Big difference. We are changed - we are not re-knitted (Jer. 1:5).

 

[epostle1]

That doesn't answer the full question. If we are all co-redeemers how come I don't hear about Paul the co-redeemer or Stephan the co-redeemer? Why aren't we addressing ourselves as co-redeemer? Why are we discussing Mary as the co-redeemer? I believe the reason is because it's an attempt to get out of a bad position.

Co-redeemer is a theological term as a result of centuries of development. It is not yet dogmatic and not binding on Catholics for usage. I don't think it will be for some time because the general population doesn't understand the meaning of "co", which is plainly evident on this thread. Theoretically and theologically, there is nothing wrong with the term. First, you have to understand doctrinal development, which takes a fair amount of space to explain. Second, you have to set aside your hostility and prejudice before you can begin to understand anything about the biblical Mary. Third, if your community forbids praying for one another, then you are in a cult and need to leave.

but here's something new: This thread calls her because she supposedly gave Jesus his blood and thus that makes her the co-redeemer. Well... Since we are all co-redeemers does that mean we gave Jesus his blood too? Of course not. The whole arguement is nonsensical.

Straw man fallacy. I made no such argument.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am a fair man... I have heard the rumor that aome believe Mary was also immaculately conceived. But I Dont see that being taught by the nonprotestant church.

I have seen them teach that Mary was born totally sinless, never sinned and was even born without the stai of original sin. That of course is something that is contrary to scripture... But that she was born a virgin herself isn't in their teaching.

The "non-Protestant" church does NOT teach that Mary was immaculately conceived??
This is a completely false statement. The Immaculate Conception is a dogmatic position of the Catholic Church.

 

[epostle1]

when you put him as the second person in your belief. that right there is blasphemy.

The Trinity is blasphemy? Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox accept the authoritive verdicts of the councils of Nicae, Ephesus and Chalcedon, all defining and clarifying the Trinity to refute heresies. Many anti-trinitarians have been ejected from this forum.

NO, this is where we departed from "EVIL".

Who is "we"? The Seventh Day Adventists or the Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

[FHII]

The "non-Protestant" church does NOT teach that Mary was immaculately conceived??
This is a completely false statement. The Immaculate Conception is a dogmatic position of the Catholic Church.

My apologies. I left out a two letter word: "of". The Catholic Church does teach she was born sinless and free from original sin.

I said that it doesn't teach "she was born a virgin herself." Of course she was. We all are born virgins. What I meant to say is that the Catholic Church doesn't teach that she was born OF a virgin.

I got the sense that someone was suggesting that.