Redemption ?

[twinc]

it is stated 'by His blood' we are redeemed but it is not clearly stated or understood where He got His human blood from - any comments - twinc

 

[FHII]

I guess his Mama.

 

[twinc]

I guess his Mama.

exactly - so like this also for Mama was Mary = co redeemer - twinc

 

[FHII]

exactly - so like this also for Mama was Mary = co redeemer - twinc

Mama didn't shed his blood.

 

[tabletalk]

exactly - so like this also for Mama was Mary = co redeemer - twinc

Since the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless, it would follow that she was also "co-redeemer".
Doesn't it take a sinless sacrifice to save people from their sins? And who else was sinless, other than Jesus and Mary?
If she is co-redeemer with Christ, she should be worshipped.

 

[twinc]

Mama didn't shed his blood.

no of course not but as foretold a sword pierced her heart - twinc

Since the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless, it would follow that she was also "co-redeemer".
Doesn't it take a sinless sacrifice to save people from their sins? And who else was sinless, other than Jesus and Mary?
If she is co-redeemer with Christ, she should be worshipped.

reverenced yes but not worshipped which is reserved for divinity - James

 

[tabletalk]

no of course not but as foretold a sword pierced her heart - twinc



reverenced yes but not worshipped which is reserved for divinity - James

Why wouldn't both redeemers be worshipped?

 

[twinc]

Why wouldn't both redeemers be worshipped?

because actually and originally even the human blood and being came from God - twinc

 

[amadeus]

it is stated 'by His blood' we are redeemed but it is not clearly stated or understood where He got His human blood from - any comments - twinc

Jesus shed his carnal blood to pay the price for the death that was in every man, but that human blood did not give anyone Life. That blood came to him through his mother who was also spiritually dead until she came to the upper room with the 120. Her carnal human blood also had no Life in it at the time of Jesus natural birth. That was the blood of the carnal flesh of Jesus. Because he was clean spiritually, without spot or blemish or any such thing, he could be and was the Lamb of God who died that we might live. But his dying did NOT bring us to Life. It simply opened the closed Door [The Gate into the Garden of Eden wherein was the Tree of Life.] The Life which Jesus was could not come to people who were full of death until a Way had been opened. There is still no room for Life in a closed heart. Without the sacrifice of Jesus there could be only death in men.

After the Door was opened then the Life which Jesus brought was available to the man who was hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God. The hungry and thirsty had Life enter into them as they ate his spiritual Flesh [the Word] and ate his spiritual blood [the Holy Spirit].

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus shed his carnal blood to pay the price for the death that was in every man, but that human blood did not give anyone Life. That blood came to him through his mother who was also spiritually dead until she came to the upper room with the 120. Her carnal human blood also had no Life in it at the time of Jesus natural birth. That was the blood of the carnal flesh of Jesus. Because he was clean spiritually, without spot or blemish or any such thing, he could be and was the Lamb of God who died that we might live. But his dying did NOT bring us to Life. It simply opened the closed Door [The Gate into the Garden of Eden wherein was the Tree of Life.] The Life which Jesus was could not come to people who were full of death until a Way had been opened. There is still no room for Life in a closed heart. Without the sacrifice of Jesus there could be only death in men.

After the Door was opened then the Life which Jesus brought was available to the man who was hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God. The hungry and thirsty had Life enter into them as they ate his spiritual Flesh [the Word] and ate his spiritual blood [the Holy Spirit].

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54

Where does Scripture say that Mary was "spiritually dead" until Pentecost?

MY Bible states that Mary was Kecharitomene, which means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” It indicates a completed action with permanent result.
Somebody who is perfectly completed in grace cannot be "spiritually dead."

Finally - show me where the Flesh and Blood of Jesus that He talks about in John 6 is His "Word" and the Holy Spirit.

 

[EndTimeWine]

Where does Scripture say that Mary was "spiritually dead" until Pentecost?

MY Bible states that Mary was Kecharitomene, which means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” It indicates a completed action with permanent result.
Somebody who is perfectly completed in grace cannot be "spiritually dead."

Finally - show me where the Flesh and Blood of Jesus that He talks about in John 6 is His "Word" and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus shed his carnal blood to pay the price for the death that was in every man, but that human blood did not give anyone Life. That blood came to him through his mother who was also spiritually dead until she came to the upper room with the 120. Her carnal human blood also had no Life in it at the time of Jesus natural birth. That was the blood of the carnal flesh of Jesus. Because he was clean spiritually, without spot or blemish or any such thing, he could be and was the Lamb of God who died that we might live. But his dying did NOT bring us to Life. It simply opened the closed Door [The Gate into the Garden of Eden wherein was the Tree of Life.] The Life which Jesus was could not come to people who were full of death until a Way had been opened. There is still no room for Life in a closed heart. Without the sacrifice of Jesus there could be only death in men.

After the Door was opened then the Life which Jesus brought was available to the man who was hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God. The hungry and thirsty had Life enter into them as they ate his spiritual Flesh [the Word] and ate his spiritual blood [the Holy Spirit].

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54

You are way off! First of all when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the power of the Most High overshadowed her she was instantly perfected. Her soul was BORN AGAIN and her flesh made immaculate. The Word was place in an unsoiled vessel, as only the Word can be. She was purposed for Wisdom in the fullest. On earth as in heaven. As Wisdom was by the Words side in heaven she had to be on earth. Mary was Christ's first work of Christianity as Wisdom was the Words first work in creation. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Christ is the Word and He spoke into creation Wisdom and poured and apportioned wisdom in full to Mary. She abides at the moment of her yes and can not sin. 1John 3:1-10.
Romans 9:20 But who are you, a man to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? Was Mary purposed for beauty? Does she abide in Christ? Wouldn't she have too to carry Him and raise Him and stand by His side through thick and thin.
Now, John the baptist was considered by the Lord, to be the greatest man born OF woman, yet the lest among him is greater than he, how much more Mary. Get over it, she was perfected for the Most BEAUTIFUL gift given to creation.

 

[amadeus]

Where does Scripture say that Mary was "spiritually dead" until Pentecost?

MY Bible states that Mary was Kecharitomene, which means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” It indicates a completed action with permanent result.
Somebody who is perfectly completed in grace cannot be "spiritually dead."

Our first carnal father died when he ate of the forbidden tree as were all of his offspring. This did not change until Jesus made a Way where there had been no way for all of those centuries.

Mary was full of grace as the scripture indicates, but she was still dead as Joseph the son of Jacob was dead as David the son of Jesse was dead although God in their time and at times gave each of them grace. The Holy Spirit moved on people for God's purposes prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out onto whosoever as per Acts chapter 2. All of those people whose carnal lives occurred prior to that including Mary the mother of Jesus were spiritually dead. I know that you will disagree on this, but that is the way it is. Mary was given a special gift prior to the upper room, but it was not the Life that came only through Jesus. She needed to go to the upper room with the 120.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Finally - show me where the Flesh and Blood of Jesus that He talks about in John 6 is His "Word" and the Holy Spirit.

You have no real interest in understanding truth. Your love is not for truth but rather for proving that your church is right and that those who disagree are wrong. Therefore you receive rather a delusion.
I cannot give you eyes to see. They come only through the Holy Spirit. Ask of God sincerely and He will show you.

 

[FHII]

no of course not but as foretold a sword pierced her heart - twinc

I am afraid I don't understand this. I have never heard that Mary was stabbed in the heart by a sword.

 

[amadeus]

You are way off! First of all when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the power of the Most High overshadowed her she was instantly perfected. Her soul was BORN AGAIN and her flesh made immaculate.

If she was perfected prior to the upper room, it was as Job was perfected:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

God was not finished with Job yet, and prior to her upper room experience God not finished with Mary either.

No one was born again until Jesus paid the price to make it a possibility.

The Word was place in an unsoiled vessel, as only the Word can be. She was purposed for Wisdom in the fullest. On earth as in heaven. As Wisdom was by the Words side in heaven she had to be on earth. Mary was Christ's first work of Christianity as Wisdom was the Words first work in creation. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Christ is the Word and He spoke into creation Wisdom and poured and apportioned wisdom in full to Mary. She abides at the moment of her yes and can not sin. 1John 3:1-10.
Romans 9:20 But who are you, a man to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? Was Mary purposed for beauty? Does she abide in Christ? Wouldn't she have too to carry Him and raise Him and stand by His side through thick and thin.
Now, John the baptist was considered by the Lord, to be the greatest man born OF woman, yet the lest among him is greater than he, how much more Mary. Get over it, she was perfected for the Most BEAUTIFUL gift given to creation.

You use a lot of words bending the scriptures to fit your argument, but remember the questions of Jesus:

"... What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" Matt 22:42-45

If Jesus was the son of an as you say, of an immaculate mother, why would he be concerned with being the son of David who was certainly not immaculate? Were not dogs were also in the genealogical bloodline of Jesus? On the one hand you would give God the glory, but on the other you would limit the Holy One of Israel.

Don't pursue this farther because you cannot convince me with men's words.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase: I Cor 3:6-7

 

[EndTimeWine]

If she was perfected prior to the upper room, it was as Job was perfected:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

God was not finished with Job yet, and prior to her upper room experience God not finished with Mary either.

No one was born again until Jesus paid the price to make it a possibility.



You use a lot of words bending the scriptures to fit your argument, but remember the questions of Jesus:

"... What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" Matt 22:42-45

If Jesus was the son of an as you say, of an immaculate mother, why would he be concerned with being the son of David who was certainly not immaculate? Were not dogs were also in the genealogical bloodline of Jesus? On the one hand you would give God the glory, but on the other you would limit the Holy One of Israel.

Don't pursue this farther because you cannot convince me with men's words.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase: I Cor 3:6-7

No bending , just your lack of understanding. Somethings are self explanatory. You are just too stuck in your learning that you can not leave room for the Holy Spirit. It is very simple The Word is pure and Holy. All He touches is Holy. And SHE WAS PERFECTED and PURPOSED FOR BEAUTY Romans 9:20. Are you saying there is a more beautiful gift? Are you saying Romans 9 is wrong? There is nothing to twist. Are you questioning God? Do you abide once saved? Was she anointed By the HOLY SPIRIT? YES OR NO? This is not difficult. Was John HOLY? Was he, from his mothers womb filled with the Holy Spirit? Did He die before Jesus?

 

[Dcopymope]

it is stated 'by His blood' we are redeemed but it is not clearly stated or understood where He got His human blood from - any comments - twinc

exactly - so like this also for Mama was Mary = co redeemer - twinc

(Ecclesiastes 7:18-20) "It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all. {19} Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city. {20} For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

(Romans 3:23-24) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

I don't see anywhere in scripture describing Mary as a co-redeemer, or of her being exempt from the statement "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". A catholic may tell you otherwise, but what bible believing, born again Christian would take what they say seriously? The good Lord knows I wouldn't.

 

[Helen]

Reading this thread...nothing to say that Amadeus has not already said for me.

 

[EndTimeWine]

I don't see Mary being mentioned as a co-redeemer, or of her being exempt from the statement "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". A catholic may tell you otherwise, but what bible believing, born again Christian would take what they say seriously? The good Lord knows I wouldn't.

She is not exempt. And she never said that of herself. In the song of Mary she says: '"My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOR" Savior, operative word. She is not co-remptrix. However, there are some mysteries concerning her which have been misrepresented by the RCC and misinterpretations concerning her by Protestants. If you want to debate the HOLINESS of Mary I will go there with you. Where do you want to begin?

 

[amadeus]

No bending you just your lack understanding. Somethings are self explanatory. You are just too stuck in your learning that you can not leave room for the Holy Spirit. It is very simple The Word is pure and Holy. All He touches is Holy. And SHE WAS PERFECTED and PURPOSED FOR BEAUTY Romans 9:20. Are you saying there is a more beautiful gift? Are you saying Romans 9 is wrong? There is nothing to twist. Are you questioning God? Do you abide once saved? Was she anointed By the HOLY SPIRIT? YES OR NO? This is not difficult.

No, some things are NOT self-explanatory. If it were so we would agree in every point, would we not?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Nothing wrong with that verse, but you are NOT God.

How many men and women were anointed by the Holy Spirit in the OT long before Mary was born to her carnal mother? How many time did David sin according to scripture after he was anointed by God?

As for the more beautiful gift, if Jesus is not the most beautiful gift God gave to mankind, how about the most beautiful of women which comes not from one person but from many?

"If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents." Song of Solomon 1:8

This is Jesus, if you will, speaking to His Bride, and His Bride is not Mary.

If you don't see what I see or I don't see what you see, is one of us necessarily lost without hope?

 

[EndTimeWine]

You left out some of that Romans9:20 verse. Never claimed to be God. If you deny the obvious, not my problem . SELF EXPLANATORY! Wasn't talking about His Bride. I was talking about MARY. I never said she wasn't born as you or I in a natural way. Do you have something you want to share with the class? Did you read my threads or something? If so, what is the problem you have concerning Mary? Have you been conditioned by denomination's interpretations and misrepresentations that NOW you can not hear TRUTH? Remember the dragon has always been before the WOMAN to devour her Son. Did you ever think, this is the hour for all things to be straight?