The Inquisitions

[aspen]

Are we wrong that Pope's condoned these terrible things in the Inquisitions?
And don't be snotty to me..I am simply asking. Thank you, BreadofLife.

The Catholic Church did not speak out against torture and in fact, followed in the footsteps of the Pharisees by turning over people they condemned to the state for torture and death. BOL knows this - it is part of his whitewashing of the Catholic Church to call the Inquisition a good thing

 

[FHII]

One of the main sources on the inquisition is Foxxe's Book of Martyrs. Chances are you can find it online.

You should understand that the effects of the inquisition lasted much longer than you think. There was also a counter inquisition which even was seen in the U.S. it may not be recognized as such. Hostilities lingered a long time.

Years ago I read a simpler book than Foxxe's on the inquisition. If you are interested I will see if I still have it.

Bottom line is that persecution against Christians started around 34 AD. It is still going on today. Christians (or professed Christians) killed alot of people in the name of Christ. Many of them were Christians themselves.

Speaking historically of the Catholic Church... I've heard quotes of 4000 being killed and I've heard quotes as much as 68 million. I believe neither are close to accurate.

Whatever the number really is... It should be zero. It should be zero all around.

10 years ago I may have been of more help. But check out the references I gave (guess I gave just one). As for the Catholic Church today... My point of view is that it is time to move on. No, we shouldn't forget history, but I don't see the point of pinning blame on today's Catholic population for this.

 

[FHII]

I have found that the complexity of the Inquisitions if FAR beyond the knowledge and education of most posters on public discussion forums.

It is very complex. Its too complex for me as I don't have suitable time nor access to European history to understand everything that happened. I don't think that there could be one historian who can put it all together.

But one can get access enough to get the jist of what happened. The bottom line is that no lives should have been lost in the name of Christ. Whether they be Arians, Christians, Jews or Muslims. Defending life... Sure. But not murder because of belief. Not even torture.

 

[tabletalk]

why the subject? the catholic church was all there was for civilization from the fall of Rome to actually the renaissance and the times where thinking was back into societies and monarchies were established. hence the catholic church ran the holy roman empire, managing civil and criminal jurisdictions. so heresy and heretics were within their rights to execute the laws in place until nations began the separation of jurisdictions like England did in King James' day.

and since the church was a political entity, of significant power and influence through out Europe, it had its issues with corruption. the catholic church in the times you speak of wasn't just a religious organization. its how the Gospel message survived in the world through such times like the dark ages. the Lord made sure the church had such power until it didn't need it any more.

also, Israel had what kind of law in cases of blasphemy? which would be of a similar nature. so is that religious or civil/criminal issues for political powers to execute?

I think you've proven (to me, at least) why the Catholic Church is not a Christian church. Instead of a Scriptural response to Heresy, they had a Cultural response. From 1Corinthians 5: "Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person” ; means Excommunication, not various civil penalties for things such as murder, etc.
This response lasted (off and on) for a few hundred years, not just an occasional Auto-de-Fe.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I think you've proven (to me, at least) why the Catholic Church is not a Christian church. .

That was a shocking statement to read! Not that I haven't heard it before.
A church that believes in the Nicene or Apostles' Creed would be Christian.

Now, do I disagree with many things about the RCC, you betcha....
I'm having a hard time with the Pope and Bishop Law's funeral in Rome.
I lived in Boston for years...I know what he did. He should have been put in jail..
And what is the term? Defrocked.

 

[101G]

One point to make might be that the Christian church isn't supposed to kill heretics (or have them killed). Our fight is against the powers of darkness, not flesh and blood.
The Catholic Church did not directly kill heretics. They could torture them though, and whenever an accused heretic did not repent, he/she was "relaxed" to the Civil authorities to be burned at the stake. I think that was because the civil penalty for heresy was burning and, according to the CERC source cited above, "...there was little separation of Church and State."
The Catholics on these forums may correct me about these "facts", but that is my information so far from the sources cited above.

this is the same as killing them themselves. just like the Jews who killed our Lord. (they, the Jews, just got the Roman occupiers to do their dirty work for them). conspiracy is a terrible thing. when one conspire, they all are killers, no hands are clean. as with our Lord, the apostle Peter clearly told them, (the Jews) so. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ".

so if one conspire, the same is just as guilty.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

The Catholic Church did not speak out against torture and in fact, followed in the footsteps of the Pharisees by turning over people they condemned to the state for torture and death.

That is what I thought was true, also. *shrug*

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Hmm, seems as if BreadOfLife is saying there are some in the Church that did bad things, but it does not mean the institution of the Church itself is bad.
Is that right, BreadOL?

So, in kind, I could say a person or a group (either Republicans or Democrats)
Have done bad (or stupid) things, but it does not make the US Government itself, or
Repulicans or Dems..."bad"....just a few 'in' the respective 'group'.

This is what I think I'm reading here....can we get a simple, uncomplicated 'yes' on this?
Or if "No", then a clarification?

 

[101G]

Hmm, seems as if BreadOfLife is saying there are some in the Church that did bad things, but it does not mean the institution of the Church itself is bad.
Is that right, BreadOL?

So, in kind, I could say a person or a group (either Republicans or Democrats)
Have done bad (or stupid) things, but it does not make the US Government itself, or
Repulicans or Dems..."bad"....just a few 'in' the respective 'group'.

This is what I think I'm reading here....can we get a simple, uncomplicated 'yes' on this?
Or if "No", then a clarification?

this is like saying, when we were out in the world, "I just hang out with them but I don't do what they do. well why hang out out with them then?.

apparently one must like what they do.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

 

[Marymog]

One point to make might be that the Christian church isn't supposed to kill heretics (or have them killed). Our fight is against the powers of darkness, not flesh and blood.
The Catholic Church did not directly kill heretics. They could torture them though, and whenever an accused heretic did not repent, he/she was "relaxed" to the Civil authorities to be burned at the stake. I think that was because the civil penalty for heresy was burning and, according to the CERC source cited above, "...there was little separation of Church and State."
The Catholics on these forums may correct me about these "facts", but that is my information so far from the sources cited above.

Hi,

Is this discussion about the inquisition conducted by the Catholic Church or are we discussing inquisition's in general?

In general the way the inquisition's were handled was a stain (blood red stain) on Christianity. There were some bad men who did some bad things in the name of Christianity.


Calvin's Victims - The Protestant Inquisition I - Atheist Resource

Protestant Persections

Historical Mary

 

[Miss Hepburn]

There were some bad men who did some bad things in the name of Christianity.

Well, that is it in a nutshell!!
Brava, Mary!

 

[Helen]

One point to make might be that the Christian church isn't supposed to kill heretics (or have them killed). Our fight is against the powers of darkness, not flesh and blood.

Very true.
God did not commend Paul/Saul for his slaughter of those that Saul thought were in error.
What He said was- " Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME"

 

[Marymog]

Good thing we have you here, BreadofLife, to correct any misinformation then.
I'm serious.
I'm not anti-Catholic, per se, ha I still remember the feel of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen's hands!
...a plug for Bishop Sheen.
This was a bad time for the Catholic Church...not much tolerance, anyone can see this...
don't have to be a scholar or anti-Catholic to see that!

Hi Miss Hepburn,

The feel of his (Bishop Sheen) hands? What does that mean?

Was it a bad time for the Protestant churches also?

I agree. You don't have to be a scholar to know your Christian history:

Protestant Persections

Calvin's Victims - The Protestant Inquisition I - Atheist Resource

Respectfully.....Curious and Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

The Catholic Church did not speak out against torture and in fact, followed in the footsteps of the Pharisees by turning over people they condemned to the state for torture and death. BOL knows this - it is part of his whitewashing of the Catholic Church to call the Inquisition a good thing

Hi,

An inquisition (intensive questioning or investigation to prevent heresy) is a good thing. Killing or torturing those that don't agree with you is a bad thing.

Preventing heresy (belief contrary to Christian doctrine teaching) is a good thing. It is what God wants us to do: 1 John 4:1, 2 John 1:10, Titus 3:10 etc. etc.

Heresies have divided Christians for 2,000 years. That is not a good thing.

How do we stop heretical teachings?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I think you've proven (to me, at least) why the Catholic Church is not a Christian church. Instead of a Scriptural response to Heresy, they had a Cultural response. From 1Corinthians 5: "Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person” ; means Excommunication, not various civil penalties for things such as murder, etc.
This response lasted (off and on) for a few hundred years, not just an occasional Auto-de-Fe.

Hi tabletalk,

I presume you know about the protestant inquisition's also? They did the same thing the RCC did.

Using your logic would that also mean that protestant churches are not Christian?

Curious Mary

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi Mary, anything about Bishop Sheen would be an 'inside' comment for an old Catholic...I can see how it sounds weird tho, LOL! What was I thinking? Ha!
It means I knew him basically. To a older Catholic it's just saying I knew a celebrity...
when I tell a priest or an older Italian woman, say, you should see their eyes!
Just a fun thing for me... and then we get to talk about him. :]

 

[Helen]

Hi,

An inquisition (intensive questioning or investigation to prevent heresy) is a good thing. Killing or torturing those that don't agree with you is a bad thing.

Preventing heresy (belief contrary to Christian doctrine teaching) is a good thing. It is what God wants us to do: 1 John 4:1, 2 John 1:10, Titus 3:10 etc. etc.

Heresies have divided Christians for 2,000 years. That is not a good thing.

How do we stop heretical teachings?

Mary

That is not what God says.
1 Cor 11:19
" For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

That is why diamonds or displayed on a black background, never upon white.
Heresies will be with us to the end. They should not make us shake and tremble in fear of contamination.
Taking the law into our own hands..is where the sin lays.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is very complex. Its too complex for me as I don't have suitable time nor access to European history to understand everything that happened. I don't think that there could be one historian who can put it all together.

But one can get access enough to get the jist of what happened. The bottom line is that no lives should have been lost in the name of Christ. Whether they be Arians, Christians, Jews or Muslims. Defending life... Sure. But not murder because of belief. Not even torture.

The Church didn't put anybody to death. These trials were a matter of state.
Like I said - there is WAAAAY too much misinformation to attempt to have a coherent discussion about this.

 

[Marymog]

That is not what God says.
1 Cor 11:19
" For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

That is why diamonds or displayed on a black background, never upon white.
Heresies will be with us to the end. They should not make us shake and tremble in fear of contamination.
Taking the law into our own hands..is where the sin lays.

Hi,

You believe that heretical teachings are a good thing for Christianity?

Mary

 

[epostle1]

#2. BOL hasn't insulted me, unless I missed it...

The perspective of the Inquisitions is totally warped. But has been used as a bat to beat Catholics with. Public views are still dependent on outdated information. What is commonly accepted as Inquisition material is no longer taught in bible colleges. We can all stop laughing at Monty Python Flying Circus as reliable history. It isn't, but TV land likes to do its damage.

Presentism: uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts. (google)

It's a fallacy that occurs when behaviors, morals, laws etc. are judged according to present day standards. It's not the 1500's anymore.
The Inquisition | Catholic Answers
Protestant Inquisitions: "Reformation" Intolerance & Persecution