Abraham was not saved by faith alone

[Stranger]

I am certain that I don't understand this concept — "exercising faith" — that you are talking about. My understanding has alway been that repentance is an act of faith. Does that mean it is not a "work?"

skypair

Repentance can be an act of faith, but it is not faith itself. When one first believes on Jesus Christ and righteousness is imputed to them, they are turning to God from their old way of life. So a certain repentance is taking place, but they are not repenting first and then turning to God. Repentance at this point is simply all part of their initial belief. Not a work. As (Rom. 4:6) clearly says. "...God imputeth righteousness without works."

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

well then why all the resistance @ "Who told you that you were naked" then Stranger, i mean that was basically the point

 

[bbyrd009]

Lk 18:13 is a real situation of the real sinner repenting to God.

so you say, and i have no desire to derail your thread ok, but no one repents to God, God does not seek penitence anyway, what a terrible tranny that is. Penitence is for Pagans and other deceived ppl; rebound is for grownups, or bam translate for yourself, re-sin would be better than repent, yikes at least it would be honest

should be fairly obvious that if i sin against you i gotta confess to you and rebound to you if i wanna be toward God. Rebound is a 180, period, and if you seek penitence or sacrifices from someone who has confessed, apologized, and demonstrated a 180, then someone lied to you, ok, i just dunno a nicer way to put it. The blind obv got to leading somewhere in that equation

If you think you got Scrip for it bring it and we'll see

 

[skypair]

Bazing!

Huh?

skypair

 

[skypair]

but no one repents to God, God does not seek penitence anyway, what a terrible tranny that is. Penitence is for Pagans

1) Psa 34:18 — "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, and saves such as be of a contrite spirit." Yes, God seeks repentance and will save those who do.

You have the totally wrong idea of repentance and I don't even know if it is worth my time to show you why. But here goes: There are 3 forms of repentance: 1) change of mind/spirit (unbelief to belief), 2) change of heart (change of your intentions going forward), and 3) change of behavior (the one you seem stuck on). There is no equality between penitence and repentance. Penitence is an effort to pay for your own sin.

skypair

 

[OzSpen]

1) Psa 34:18 — "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, and saves such as be of a contrite spirit." Yes, God seeks repentance and will save those who do.

You have the totally wrong idea of repentance and I don't even know if it is worth my time to show you why. But here goes: There are 3 forms of repentance: 1) change of mind/spirit (unbelief to belief), 2) change of heart (change of your intentions going forward), and 3) change of behavior (the one you seem stuck on). There is no equality between penitence and repentance. Penitence is an effort to pay for your own sin.

skypair

Please provide evidence for your '3 forms of repentance'.

 

[OzSpen]

‘Ro 4:3 — "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” God came to Abram and said that He would give Abram a land that He would show him. Abram wasn't declared righteous because he believed the promise though he did believe in the land and that God could give it to him. He was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land!

In the same way, we are not saved by believing the gospel, the Bible, in eternal life and that God can give that to us, etc. — we are saved by obeying what God tells us we must to in order to receive those gifts which is "REPENT towards God and FAITH in Christ" (Acts 20:21, cf. Acts 17:30, 26:20, 2:38).

Now you can call it whatever you want .. "works" seems to be the popular reply. But if Abram hadn't gotten up and left Ur, he would not have received the land, much less would God be telling us about him today. What you could do is actually obey knowing that the scriptures that mention works are talking about works of the flesh and of the law and are not spiritual works like belief and repentance.

skypair

​

skypair,

In my understanding, you have the cart before the horse. Let's read Heb 11:8-10 (NIV):

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.​

What was the starting point of Abraham's relationship with God. He believed, i.e. he had faith in God.

What followed his 'by faith' action? He obeyed God and went to the place of his inheritance, the promised land.

This is the same message that is demonstrated in James 2. Genuine faith is followed by good deeds/works. Good deeds do not cause one to have faith. See James 2:14-26 (NIV).

Oz

 

[skypair]

What was the starting point of Abraham's relationship with God. He believed, i.e. he had faith in God.

What followed his 'by faith' action? He obeyed God and went to the place of his inheritance, the promised land.

The phrase "by faith" indicates to me that there was some act done by faith, no? So yes, the relationship began with belief. But belief is not faith .. it is simple agreement or assent. So one might say instead of "by faith," showing faith Abraham obeyed. In fact, it would be unbelief not to obey God, right?

The "faith alone" doctrine has many people confused about what really is required for salvation. You probably know like I do that every denomination has their own 'spin' on what constitutes faith, right? The Bible tells us that what constitutes faith is obedience to God and God, for us, commands repentance (Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 20:21, 26:20).

Would you say that it shows belief or faith for us to disobey the gospel?

skypair

 

[OzSpen]

Bazing!

Scott,

Are you referring to the meaning of ba-zing/bazing in the Urban dictionary? 'Expression exclaimed after insulting someone' or 'Can be heard on the cartoon show "Family Guy" used at the end of a sentence in which someone said something witty or even a joke' (Urban dictionary 2017. s.v. bazing).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The phrase "by faith" indicates to me that there was some act done by faith, no? So yes, the relationship began with belief. But belief is not faith .. it is simple agreement or assent. So one might say instead of "by faith," showing faith Abraham obeyed. In fact, it would be unbelief not to obey God, right?

The "faith alone" doctrine has many people confused about what really is required for salvation. You probably know like I do that every denomination has their own 'spin' on what constitutes faith, right? The Bible tells us that what constitutes faith is obedience to God and God, for us, commands repentance (Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 20:21, 26:20).

Would you say that it shows belief or faith for us to disobey the gospel?

skypair

skypair,

To be honest with you, 'indicates to me' is not a way to obtain the meaning of any text, including the Bible. We need to obtain the meaning out of the text by exegesis and not by an 'indication to me'. The latter is most often eisegesis - inserting meaning into the text.

You say, 'But belief is not faith .. it is simple agreement or assent'. Based on the NT Greek language, this is false. I believe = pisteuw; faith = pistis. Both are based on the same root of the Greek word, pist. So, I believe and I have faith mean the same thing if our faith is fair dinkum (an Aussie expression for genuine). Of course, there can be fake faith (e.g. 'You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror' - James 2:19 NLT).

You state:

You probably know like I do that every denomination has their own 'spin' on what constitutes faith, right? The Bible tells us that what constitutes faith is obedience to God and God, for us, commands repentance (Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 20:21, 26:20).​

That is too much of a generalisation, a hyperbole. In 55 years as a Christian, I have not heard the breadth of description you have given here.

You ask, 'Would you say that it shows belief or faith for us to disobey the gospel?' Let's check what James teaches:

14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? (James 2:14-20 NLT).​

James is clear that genuine faith produces good deeds. These good deeds are produced by faith. James answers the question you ask: “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds” (James 2:18 NLT).

Notice how James states it: 'I will show you my faith by my good deeds'. He does not teach this: 'My good deeds will lead to my experiencing faith through repentance'. It all begins with our faith in Christ alone for salvation (through confession and repentance) and the good deeds must follow to demonstrate that the faith is genuine and not useless.

At 12.45am, bed is calling on this Saturday morning.

Oz

 

[skypair]

It all begins with our faith in Christ alone for salvation (through confession and repentance) and the good deeds must follow to demonstrate that the faith is genuine and not useless.

"Appears to me" is just another way of saying that there is a difference in definitions between belief and faith. I am familiar with pistes and convinced that the Greek doesn't tell the whole story. So belief leads to repentance leads to faith. If you believe (Acts 2:37), you act (2:38), and the "evidence" of your belief is receiving the Holy Ghost .. and faith. Now that is how it worked for me so I also can testify to the truth of this order.

Notice, though, that where you say "faith alone" leads to confession, others say it leads to works not commanded of us in the gospel. Are you going to obey the gospel or are you not, 2Thes 1:8?

skypair

 

[ScottA]

Huh?

skypair

You barely made your point clear...and it is wrong. The thief on the cross is proof of that.

 

[ScottA]

Scott,

Are you referring to the meaning of ba-zing/bazing in the Urban dictionary? 'Expression exclaimed after insulting someone' or 'Can be heard on the cartoon show "Family Guy" used at the end of a sentence in which someone said something witty or even a joke' (Urban dictionary 2017. s.v. bazing).

Oz

Well...not that exact definition. But rather that the op was like a shooting star out of left field not to be believed, a weak explanation and point...that happens to be wrong, and therefore reckless, i.e. reader beware.

 

[skypair]

You barely made your point clear...and it is wrong. The thief on the cross is proof of that.

The thief came to Christ under the OT "gospel of the kingdom." That was repentance in the form of turning to God from sin and trusting in the coming of Messiah when sins would be forgiven. We do see the thief acknowledging his sin and turning to Messiah, right? He did ask Jesus for salvation, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Well...not that exact definition. But rather that the op was like a shooting star out of left field not to be believed, a weak explanation and point...that happens to be wrong, and therefore reckless, i.e. reader beware

What's to be aware of? Is Acts 2:36-40 the gospel or is it not? Does it command us to, not just believe ("faith alone," 2:37), but to repent in order to receive forgiveness and the Holy Ghost?

skypair

 

[ScottA]

The thief came to Christ under the OT "gospel of the kingdom." That was repentance in the form of turning to God from sin and trusting in the coming of Messiah when sins would be forgiven. We do see the thief acknowledging his sin and turning to Messiah, right? He did ask Jesus for salvation, right?

skypair

Those are true statements.

But your op adds to it, and I called you on it. You went on to say that unlike the thief, people must also get up and do something more like Abram did...which is good of Abram for our sake, but not necessary for all.

 

[ScottA]

What's to be aware of? Is Acts 2:36-40 the gospel or is it not? Does it command us to, not just believe ("faith alone," 2:37), but to repent in order to receive forgiveness and the Holy Ghost?

skypair

You are right to make that a question...because you have not answered it well yourself, and yet you preach based on what you have misunderstood.

In Acts 2:36-40 Peter gave directions to those who did not perceive that Jesus was the Messiah, who gave false witness, and had Him crucified. In other words, more than sin, they had blood on their hands - and Peter spoke to those offences and was all the more harsh in giving them a way to come back into the fold. But that is not the message according to the great commission that is to now go out unto all nations and people - but rather good news.

Thus, all nations and people should beware that men do not enslave them with their doctrines and tangents preached out of their own hearts:

Acts 20:29-32
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

 

[skypair]

You are right to make that a question...because you have not answered it well yourself, and yet you preach based on what you have misunderstood.

In Acts 2:36-40 Peter gave directions to those who did not perceive that Jesus was the Messiah, who gave false witness, and had Him crucified. In other words, more than sin, they had blood on their hands - and Peter spoke to those offences and was all the more harsh in giving them a way to come back into the fold. But that is not the message according to the great commission that is to now go out unto all nations and people - but rather good news.

I am sure I don't understand what you mean here, but 3000 people were added to the CHURCH that day.

"Go therefore and teach all nations..." Teach them what? The gospel of Jesus Christ .. and Peter did just that. Then he baptized "them in the name of ..." Now if you are purporting to have another gospel, it would be a "perverted gospel of Christ" (Gal 1:7) that does not save anyone. The gospel at Pentecost did.

skypair

 

[skypair]

But your op adds to it,

I only add the command that God gave according to the gospel of the new covenant. You can't say that there is nothing commanded of believers of the gospel because disobedience brings blindness and death.

skypair

 

[ScottA]

I am sure I don't understand what you mean here, but 3000 people were added to the CHURCH that day.

"Go therefore and teach all nations..." Teach them what? The gospel of Jesus Christ .. and Peter did just that. Then he baptized "them in the name of ..." Now if you are purporting to have another gospel, it would be a "perverted gospel of Christ" (Gal 1:7) that does not save anyone. The gospel at Pentecost did.

skypair

I only add the command that God gave according to the gospel of the new covenant. You can't say that there is nothing commanded of believers of the gospel because disobedience brings blindness and death.

skypair

No, this is me telling you, reminding you...of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the great commission of telling the world the good news - not adding "works" as you put it, to that simple commandment.

Your reference to Acts 2:36-40 was off the mark. He was not speaking of the great commission, nor to the gentile nations of whom the good news was to be given. But, rather, Peter was addressing those of Israel and that wicked generation who crucified the Lord. Therefore, the passage does not support your claim that in addition to faith [alone] one must also do as commanded - which is not the gospel of Christ, but rather you adding to it.

The point is... His servants [were] under commandment, but the recipients of His salvation during these times of the gentiles, [are] not.