What about Hell ?

[amadeus]

ha i always took "i die daily" to be something that happened toward the end of his day; guess it should be done first thing duh

The dying daily as per Paul is likely the same thing in effect as starting at the lowest room as per Jesus. When we climb on our own it is for our glory and not God's. It is death for us in the things of God. That self-starter stuff using our abilities and our gifts to accomplish our purposes is what needs to be killed. That is what Paul did before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. He needed to be blinded first before he could begin to fill his eyes with what God would put before him. He had to terminate his own work that he believed was God's work in order to begin God's work.

 

[bbyrd009]

I did not look up the leeks and garlic separately as you did, but was struck simply by the way people really are. In that sense it doesn't matter if it was leeks and garlic or simply a lack drinking water. After all the things they had witnessed in Egypt and in spite of the other things God had done for them time after time in the wilderness they rebelled again and again. Surely we can understand why even a God of great patience might lose his patience.

yes; they yearned for the physical palliatives that they had while enslaved, crediting the Egyptians rather than God with providing them

Yes, even on this forum we see people who cannot see how a slave could be content. No freedom! Yet in the OT the scripture speaks of a man who has served his time as a bond servant and is due to be released [no more slavery]. He is given the option of having a hole made in his earlobe in order to continue his bondage. People may ask why someone would do that?

ya, they are obv "hearing something else" right

It provides a little different perspective on mankind than that of the prodigal son.

nice, i'll have to revue Phil with that in mind, ya

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't recall anything in Revelation at the moment, but see these words from Isaiah:

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged." Isaiah 6:5-7

God knows our frailties. In Isaiah we see that he needed some work done on his mouth before he could speak to other people about their troubles. When we look back to Moses, we see that he tried to convince that he could not handle the job God has chosen him to do. God doesn't want someone who is too strong in himself. If He does choose such a person, He has to humble him before he is ready to get it done. All of us need to be humbled so God can then remold us into something useful in His plan.

See Moses in the beginning of his calling:

"And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.Exodus 4:10-13

But then see Moses later when his own brother and sister came up against him:

Num 12:3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

Moses had changed, had been changed.

I remember early in our walk with God, my wife used to call be Moses because I was so hesitant to open my mouth. That was a great many years ago. Moses I'm not, but God has at times used me when I have surrendered to his will. Somewhere along the line a seraphim may have touched my mouth with a live coal.

hmm, so slaves are pierced in the ear, while servants must overcome dumbness of one stripe or another

 

[bbyrd009]

They were scattered seemingly without destination or purpose.

i have contemplated that, too, but i wonder how much emphasis "seemingly" should get there. Our perception may not realize God's purposes. Ppl being scattered might be perceived as a curse, and really be a blessing iow

 

[amadeus]

i have contemplated that, too, but i wonder how much emphasis "seemingly" should get there. Our perception may not realize God's purposes. Ppl being scattered might be perceived as a curse, and really be a blessing iow

If God is doing the scattering or at least using the scattering, there indeed should be no "seemingly". God has the whole plan in mind. If He cannot use you [or you won't allow yourself to be used] for the Right Hand, He may find a use for you with the Left.

 

[bbyrd009]

so,
i went to church from fear of hell and
worshipped Nehushtan for
40 years (ha, almost to the day) while i
learned the law (fear is associated with the law), and now i go to
church, as a sacrifice
i go to church as a sacrifice

only
i get to define church now, too, right,
the church is wherever i'm needed
church is wherever i am

ah, so
the Christian Diaspora
hey, that's you!
ya, diasporas are always a beo...oops

 

[aspen]

The word Hell is used a lot here it seems…so I thought it may be interesting to chat about it.
I am sure we have many different takes on it between us all. :)

I’ll kick it of with this.....

Those of us who have done a lot of witnessing , outreach , and trying to share our faith with unbelievers know that we are often confronted with many questions, especially on the subject of Hell and eternal punishment. We’ve been there, done that haven’t we.
We have found that many people have a real problem with Orthodox Christianity's belief that non-Christians will be punished eternally because they are not Christians.
We have found that this is one of the main reasons many Christians do NOT enjoy sharing their faith with the unsaved! They find themselves coming up short of good answers to questions or statements like these few below…..all viable questions from the unsaved point of view....but an answer has to be given when in a conversation.

"If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God, because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."
Or….
"How can you believe that burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair” God. Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime……..but according to Christians, unsaved people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not."

"Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured!!"

"You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. That does not sound like justice….it sounds like insanity!"

"Infinite punishment for finite crimes ….does that sound just doesn't seem to be for me..worldly judges do better than that!"

"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? You make God look like a monster even worse than Hitler but not a loving Father Who would die for His enemies!"

"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity will go there, how can you say that - 'Love NEVER fails?’ Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things."

"If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished in Hell "

Sadly THIS is the understanding that ‘the church’ has given to them over the decades…and we wonder why people aren’t flooding to the churches!?

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

Hell is lonely

 

[amadeus]

so,
i went to church from fear of hell and

From different places come people to God. I never really feared hell. Even when I paid lip service to it I doubt that I ever really believed in a hell of unending torment for unbelievers. I attended church from the start in order to somehow move closer to God. This was so when I was a very young Catholic boy. I had not in those days simply belief, but rather faith as you have called it, making a difference between the two. Now at 74 years still I reach out to and/or surrender to God to somehow move closer to Him. Many things have changed but much remains the same.

worshipped Nehushtan for
40 years (ha, almost to the day) while i
learned the law (fear is associated with the law), and now i go to
church, as a sacrifice
i go to church as a sacrifice

Few in churches have heard of Nehushtan and of those that have likely very few would understand why you continue to pound on it. 40 years? In between times for me the total was doubtless longer than that, but I would have not ever during those years have put that name to it. Who would while still doing it? Whose eyes are open?

Give God the glory!

only
i get to define church now, too, right,
the church is wherever i'm needed
church is wherever i am

Yes, and God alone is able to determine the need. Are we paying attention? Hearing and seeing and obeying?

ah, so
the Christian Diaspora
hey, that's you!
ya, diasporas are always a beo...oops

No oops about it... or there should not be. James wrote:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

But then we read in the real Lord's Prayer...

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me." John 17:6-8

 

[Helen]

@amadeus I agree, before I knew the Lord I did not fear hell, but I did fear the thought of outer darkness and the lack of God.
My very first desires that drew me was wanted to 'end up' with God and in His presence. I just kind of knew that where God was, would be wonderful.

I think my first seeking prayer was- " God, I want to end up with you..and live life knowing it will have a happy ending. I can't go another year with the agony of just 'not knowing."
At the time I prayed that prayer I was 22 , with two babies, and washing diapers at the sink. I was crying. That was the beginning of me seeking seriously for the Lord.
( or was that the beginning of the Lord nudging me? Chicken or egg? ) :)

 

[bbyrd009]

I can't go another year with the agony of just 'not knowing."

ha. And was this 'agony' remedied then, i take it?

 

[bbyrd009]

I would have not ever during those years have put that name to it.

i read the Bible pretty much every day during that time, never saw it myself! :)
lots of other stuff hiding in plain sight too i guess

 

[Helen]

ha. And was this 'agony' remedied then, i take it?

Yes, in as much as I did not 'know' God when I prayed that.
Heard of Him, believed in Him , that He was our creator. But I had no ( and I hate the phrase) personal relationship , with Him..had no personal knowledge.

Little things happened.my dad was already a believer...he asked a pastor to visit me...and this man "filled in the gaps" for me.
Then on the 23rd of the month, I had a " God moment" ...again I can only guess that my spiritual eyes were opened ... I also felt an overwhelming presence of love. I felt like I was standing in His awesome powerful warmth.
I just "knew" I was face to face with God. Just a "knowing" deep in my spirit. A 'joining'.
Over the next 54 years there have been times when I feel alone and without His presence ...but not often.
And, when that happens I am very aware that it is me the moves , not Him.
I don't always Abide as I should.

My two cents...

 

[amadeus]

i read the Bible pretty much every day during that time, never saw it myself! :)
lots of other stuff hiding in plain sight too i guess

This is why even to this day, I simply overlook what preachers and teachers say about using this Bible version or that one. I have never read any English Bible regularly but the KJV, yet so many things I did not see the first reading or the second and so on for many years. It was not the Bible version that hindered or helped. It was where I was or was not with God and it was what He had in His mind for me.

I have attended regularly with two groups [denominations?] that have read only the KJV and while I have never stopped or changed, I could never understand why they have been so insistent that it must be this one and no other. God could have done it that way, making that one version to one to use, but if He had and it was so important to growing toward God I believe He would have also made sure anyone who was really hungry and thirsty for Him would have come to know that.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is why even to this day, I simply overlook what preachers and teachers say about using this Bible version or that one. I have never read any English Bible regularly but the KJV, yet so many things I did not see the first reading or the second and so on for many years. It was not the Bible version that hindered or helped. It was where I was or was not with God and it was what He had in His mind for me.

I have attended regularly with two groups [denominations?] that have read only the KJV and while I have never stopped or changed, I could never understand why they have been so insistent that it must be this one and no other. God could have done it that way, making that one version to one to use, but if He had and it was so important to growing toward God I believe He would have also made sure anyone who was really hungry and thirsty for Him would have come to know that.

I just came upon this. Not sure what the thread is about, but...
I like the KJV for the poetic sound of it. It's beautiful.
But I could never use it for Bible reading.

 

[amadeus]

I just came upon this. Not sure what the thread is about, but...
I like the KJV for the poetic sound of it. It's beautiful.
But I could never use it for Bible reading.

Yes, so it must be. Some go this way and some that, but so long as all ways are Jesus leading us to God, it's OK

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, so it must be. Some go this way and some that, but so long as all ways are Jesus leading us to God, it's OK

Amen.

 

[Davy]

....

Sadly THIS is the understanding that ‘the church’ has given to them over the decades…and we wonder why people aren’t flooding to the churches!?

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

The New Testament does a better job of describing the abode of the wicked called hell. In the OT it's often the idea of the grave. But even in the New Testament the word "hell" (KJV) is mistranslated in some places.

Matt 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
KJV

hell there is the word Geenan, from the OT. It's about the Valley of Hinnom, a perpetual burning garbage pit outside the walls of Jerusalem. Jesus used it as a symbol for the "lake of fire" that's to happen after the future thousand years of Revelation 20.

Luke 10:15
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
KJV

That word "hell" in Luke 10 is the Greek word Haides. It's about the the abode of the wicked in the heavenly, like where the rich man of Luke 16 was taken to in Paradise, to the side across a great fixed border between him and where Lazaraus and Abraham were on the other side. This abode of the wicked will eventually go into... the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years.

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
KJV

That "hell" is the Greek word tartaroo, and means the deepest abyss of Haides. It's a holding place for the angels that God put in chains awaiting the Judgement.


So most often, God's Word is pointing to either the half of Paradise where the rich man was taken, or to the future "lake of fire" which Haides will go into and be no more.

In the Psalms, we are told the wicked will consume away in final. In Rev.14 we are shown it's the smoke of the burning that rises forever and ever. So which is it? Do the wicked perish like a final destruction and no more, or do they burn continually like a piece of bacon in the "lake of fire"?

Ps 37:10-11
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
KJV

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV

I believe there's more evidence for the idea of hell going into the "lake of fire" and being no more, like what that Psalms 37 shows. I do not believe they will ever make it to the new heavens and a new earth timing that begins after the thousand years of Rev.20.

 

[Davy]

....
Sadly THIS is the understanding that ‘the church’ has given to them over the decades…and we wonder why people aren’t flooding to the churches!?

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

Yet there is more to understand, and it's covered in the OT prophets:

In Christ's future thousand years reign of Rev.20, the wicked will still exist. In Rev.22:14-15 and Rev.20:8-9, the wicked will still exist, but they are the nations of unbelieving that dwell outside the gates of the holy city where the saints will dwell. One of the jobs of the OT priest was to teach The Word of God to the people, and give them the understanding. One of the role of the king was the defender of The Word of God. Those are actually part of the roles we, Christ's Church, shall be responsible for in the future during Christ's thousand years reign.

In that future time, like Rev.20 shows, the devil will be locked in his pit prison and he and his minions will not be able to deceive the world at that time. His puppet kings of the earth will locked in the pit with him during that thousand years. Because of that, even the wicked are going to understand The Gospel and will bow to Christ Jesus as King and Lord. Like Peter said in 2 Pet.3, it's not God's wish that anyone should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

In that future time, no one will have an excuse not... to believe. We all will see God The Son in His glory and will perfectly know who He is. The wicked will know that too so they will be without excuse if they remain in unbelief. So there will be converts to Christ Jesus during that time, especially among the orthodox Jews whom God blinded per Rom.11. Those of the wicked who still choose unbelief after that thousand years will thus have chosen of their own free will, to perish, instead of dwelling with God for the Eternity and submit only to Him as The LORD, having no other gods. The devil will be loosed after the thousand years one final time to test those. They will knowingly choose who they will follow so there will be no excuse.

Thus it won't be our Heavenly Father that will be responsible for the destruction of the wicked. It will be the wicked themselves who will choose not to dwell with Him in Eternity because they want to be their own gods, or worship Lucifer instead.

 

[bbyrd009]

the future comes when we change our mind

 

[Taken]

The New Testament does a better job of describing the abode of the wicked called hell. In the OT it's often the idea of the grave. But even in the New Testament the word "hell" (KJV) is mistranslated in some places.

Matt 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
KJV

hell there is the word Geenan, from the OT. It's about the Valley of Hinnom, a perpetual burning garbage pit outside the walls of Jerusalem. Jesus used it as a symbol for the "lake of fire" that's to happen after the future thousand years of Revelation 20.

Luke 10:15
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
KJV

That word "hell" in Luke 10 is the Greek word Haides. It's about the the abode of the wicked in the heavenly, like where the rich man of Luke 16 was taken to in Paradise, to the side across a great fixed border between him and where Lazaraus and Abraham were on the other side. This abode of the wicked will eventually go into... the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years.

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
KJV

That "hell" is the Greek word tartaroo, and means the deepest abyss of Haides. It's a holding place for the angels that God put in chains awaiting the Judgement.


So most often, God's Word is pointing to either the half of Paradise where the rich man was taken, or to the future "lake of fire" which Haides will go into and be no more.

In the Psalms, we are told the wicked will consume away in final. In Rev.14 we are shown it's the smoke of the burning that rises forever and ever. So which is it? Do the wicked perish like a final destruction and no more, or do they burn continually like a piece of bacon in the "lake of fire"?

Ps 37:10-11
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
KJV

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV

I believe there's more evidence for the idea of hell going into the "lake of fire" and being no more, like what that Psalms 37 shows. I do not believe they will ever make it to the new heavens and a new earth timing that begins after the thousand years of Rev.20.

Right on and refreshing when a man is spot on.

God Bless,
Taken