What about Hell ?

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: Yes, he was victorious and so may we be. But did even he do what I believe Stephen did, what Jesus did? Before his natural death, did he overcome completely the world of his own flesh? Was the old man completely dead? Was the vision of God before him in his last moment of natural life? Where was the pain?

bbyrd009 said:
Well, he states that he did overcome the world, and saw crowns in is future, so i gotta believe him. anyone that could write "rejoice in your sorrows, or when tribulation comes" has imo seen something that i can barely see. i'm still mostly faking it to make it there, myself, i mean this happens for me like once a year or something lol, this kind of joy.

Yes, I also believe it. To go to the natural grave with a final victory would leave a person on the outside where there is death and/or darkness.

You are not faking any time you are really seeking. How often is that happening? Was David really seeking God when he was looking at Bathsheba and then doing all that was needed to commit adultery and murder so she could be his? David was certainly wrong in making and carrying out his plans. Was ignorant of how much his ways than were displeasing God...? Yet was he not called the "apple of his eye" and a "man after His heart"? be very slow to answer those questions, for I believe those answers are really important.

 

[amadeus]

ya, you were making a rhetorical Q, and i just revealed myself lol

And what a revelation it was, or...?

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: I believe more in a double minded way for most believers

bbyrd009 said: imo that would be an improvement over the mindset of most believers

i mean you gotta embrace that you are a hypocrite, otherwise you are in denial that you are a hypocrite, seems to me.

now i have seen "altar conversions," too...like, one, i guess. maybe two. i didn't track them to see if it stuck or whatever; my impression was that these were really evil people who just saw the light, and had so much past sin that they were more able to appreciate/embrace forgiveness, maybe? Both cases were like along the lines of murderers or rapists, like that

In the OT we see people going in and out of the outer court to bring their sin offerings to the priests. How many of them stopped committing the same old sins down the road as they became aware that this was getting to be an old thing. Did any of them repent of their continuous rebellions against Moses and the Lord when there was no water or their were no leeks and garlic as in Egypt, etc. ?

Maybe that was what Joshua and Caleb did that the others did not do.

We may not be Catholic, but we can understand the need to confess our new and/or repeated sins and repent. We [meaning most all of us, if not all of us] are just like those natural Israelites going in and out of the outer court of God's special place. They were bound by the strict rules so they kept on doing it repeatedly. Why is it that once we have entered in and supposedly [or really] repented that we repeatedly choose to go back outside again? Can we not choose to live within continuously?

I remember my first real encounter with the Holy Ghost that I recognized as such. I was praying and praising God and then my whole body was filled seemingly in every pore with an overflowing warmth that I had never felt before. That was when I spoke in an unknown language for the first time. I was a changed person after that, but I did go back outside again...Why?

 

[bbyrd009]

Only twice you have heard the Word? Likely that is the number of times it was clear to you that that is what it was.

yes, the rest of the times it was just more whispery, i'm sure

So far they are not literally stoning us, but in a sense some are and they would do it to your or to me or to whoever for the same reasons that they did it to Stephen.

yes, the literal stoning of Steven is a type for us in this way i guess, one can be spiritually stoned by others, and the spiritual is what the Book cares about. Never heard anyone else perceive stoning this way, nice. How one could not, i don't really get

 

[bbyrd009]

People are almost too quick to say it cannot happen here, but usually they are looking at the Muslims as the stone throwers. I doubt that the Muslims are to be, [or even already are], our worst enemies among men.

ha well we can at least give the Islamophobes another opp to witness right here, i guess. no links allowed, of course, personal testimony only. Of course this will change when you mix culturees with them, inevitably, bc there's as many fake Muslims as fake Christians of course

I doubt that the Muslims are to be, [or even already are], our worst enemies among men.

for it is the members of a man's own household that will be his enemies

as you go on to illuminate, yes. Of course you are obviously unfit to preach in a church now, right? who would hear this? your trips to congregation are now a sacrifice, if i'm not mistaken we have a v for this, too, that i cannot recall the syntax of. pretty sure sacrifice is in there, but i haven't found it yet

 

[bbyrd009]

They feel perhaps safe, but who is it that they are safe from?

ha well safe from you, of course, you would be ejected. safe from grace, oh daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready. Not sons, for the reasons we are only too clearly (for congregations) illuminating here. They are daughters, and you are not a daughter any more

 

[bbyrd009]

@bbyrd009



Only twice you have heard the Word? Likely that is the number of times it was clear to you that that is what it was. Lots of times perhaps we are hearing but we do not recognize what it is we are receiving at the moment. Then later when we are available and God has a need, He speaks His Word through us, a Word that we did not know was there.

So far they are not literally stoning us, but in a sense some are and they would do it to your or to me or to whoever for the same reasons that they did it to Stephen. People are almost too quick to say it cannot happen here, but usually they are looking at the Muslims as the stone throwers. I doubt that the Muslims are to be, [or even already are], our worst enemies among men.

Our worst enemy is inside of ourselves [me for me, you for you, and so forth]. But after him, we might look to some of our church going acquaintances and even those who may meet with us at times in the same physical building.

People like their own denominations, I guess. They feel perhaps safe, but who is it that they are safe from?

i'll pick it up tomorrow at #81, this one is great stuff too imo, ty

 

[bbyrd009]

so,
i went to church from fear of hell and
worshipped Nehushtan for
40 years (ha, almost to the day) while i
learned the law (fear is associated with the law), and now i go to
church, as a sacrifice
i go to church as a sacrifice

only
i get to define church now, too, right,
the church is wherever i'm needed
church is wherever i am

ah, so
the Christian Diaspora
hey, that's you!
ya, diasporas are always a beo...oops

 

[amadeus]

ha well we can at least give the Islamophobes another opp to witness right here, i guess. no links allowed, of course, personal testimony only. Of course this will change when you mix culturees with them, inevitably, bc there's as many fake Muslims as fake Christians of course

Finding the real thing of anything positive [God's positive] may indeed be a difficult thing. God can do it: Eight in from a world covered by water; two from 600,000 Hebrews without counting women and children. Few there be that find it...

for it is the members of a man's own household that will be his enemies

as you go on to illuminate, yes. Of course you are obviously unfit to preach in a church now, right? who would hear this? your trips to congregation are now a sacrifice, if i'm not mistaken we have a v for this, too, that i cannot recall the syntax of. pretty sure sacrifice is in there, but i haven't found it yet

Hey at present my trips to the congregation really are a sacrifice. My wife and I have another plan if God allows us time. In the interim we go and I preach or vacuum the carpets or simply stand behind my faithful pastor. When he is gone to dust, then I cannot go back there and probably not many other places would allow me to open my mouth. I have no written credentials saying "Preacher or Teacher of the Gospel for such and such Denomination". Oh God may help me find some places. We have to wait on God.

 

[amadeus]

ha well safe from you, of course, you would be ejected. safe from grace, oh daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready. Not sons, for the reasons we are only too clearly (for congregations) illuminating here. They are daughters, and you are not a daughter any more

I am dangerous to them when God's Word Alive is in me and cutting off the evil in people. I am then also dangerous to anything left of the old man in me. The battles still rage in me. The good thing is that God never loses battles. The bad thing is that people, including me, do lose battles because we keep hold of our own reins instead of giving them back to the Lord and staying always on His side.

We always need to start again at that lowest room and let God do any elevating.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am

not a daughter any more

not acting from your female any more

 

[truthquest]

The word Hell is used a lot here it seems…so I thought it may be interesting to chat about it.
I am sure we have many different takes on it between us all.

Speaking of which, I'm sure you've heard about how different churches across the country have been having what they call "Hell Night" on Halloween. I'd like to know who came up with that idea, who thought it would be a good thing to traumatize children that way and in a church no less. A church is where children should feel safe and secure, happy and feeling joy.

 

[bbyrd009]

And what a revelation it was, or...?

ha ya, it was pretty obvious what you really meant lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Did any of them repent of their continuous rebellions against Moses and the Lord when there was no water or their were no leeks and garlic as in Egypt, etc. ?

ha, dunno why "leeks and garlic" sent me looking, but it was worth it imo; those are alliatives, possibly even worshipped for their healing qualities, "the fish we ate for free" is also laden with symbology huh

They were bound by the strict rules so they kept on doing it repeatedly. Why is it that once we have entered in and supposedly [or really] repented that we repeatedly choose to go back outside again? Can we not choose to live within continuously?

can an unwilling slave be said to have free will, even? But a willing one, that's different.

 

[bbyrd009]

I remember my first real encounter with the Holy Ghost that I recognized as such. I was praying and praising God and then my whole body was filled seemingly in every pore with an overflowing warmth that I had never felt before. That was when I spoke in an unknown language for the first time. I was a changed person after that, but I did go back outside again...Why?

i know, huh? We rush to deem ourselves pure, but we have vv that assure us we will be aghast, speechless, when the depth of our sin becomes known to us, although if i remember right that last part is kind of inferred; pretty sure "speechless" was in there, hmm, maybe it was "struck dumb"...dang, anyway “If You, Lord, should keep account of and treat [us according to our] sins, O Lord, who could stand?"
we will be speechless, when the depth of our sin becomes known to us - Google Search
we will be struck dumb when the depth of our sin becomes known to us - Google Search
in The Rev i think, can't find it now

the point maybe being that the heart is the seat of sin, whereas we like to imagine sin as being an outside force, right. Having Free Will gives one a vision of glory that desire seeks to manifest; we are no longer content with things as they are. God's Creation is deemed inadequate, or flawed, and we perceive a better way.

This is not the kind of power you can just wind up and set down anywhere, is consciousness. You are a god now, and seek worship, like any god does. We read of an antichrist sitting in the Holy of Holies and proclaiming (him)self to be God, not realizing that that is a description of where we reside, in our hearts; that is the place that we naturally occupy in our psyche, and a little conversion experience is hardly going to assail this perception at all.

Plenty of space to worship God from there, is our belief; that is the definition of belief, 'a belief,' i bet

 

[bbyrd009]

When he is gone to dust, then I cannot go back there and probably not many other places would allow me to open my mouth.

sounds like diaspora to me

Oh God may help me find some places. We have to wait on God.

hmm, you are someplace right now lol

 

[bbyrd009]

We always need to start again at that lowest room and let God do any elevating.

ha i always took "i die daily" to be something that happened toward the end of his day; guess it should be done first thing duh

 

[amadeus]

ha, dunno why "leeks and garlic" sent me looking, but it was worth it imo; those are alliatives, possibly even worshipped for their healing qualities, "the fish we ate for free" is also laden with symbology huh

Indeed, I find it impossible to exhaust the messages that God has enclosed in scripture for us. Sometimes it just jumps right out at you and for others you have to dig and research in to just begin to understand them.

I did not look up the leeks and garlic separately as you did, but was struck simply by the way people really are. In that sense it doesn't matter if it was leeks and garlic or simply a lack drinking water. After all the things they had witnessed in Egypt and in spite of the other things God had done for them time after time in the wilderness they rebelled again and again. Surely we can understand why even a God of great patience might lose his patience.

can an unwilling slave be said to have free will, even? But a willing one, that's different.

Yes, even on this forum we see people who cannot see how a slave could be content. No freedom! Yet in the OT the scripture speaks of a man who has served his time as a bond servant and is due to be released [no more slavery]. He is given the option of having a hole made in his earlobe in order to continue his bondage. People may ask why someone would do that?

The little NT book of Philemon is apparently a letter by Paul to a slave holder, Philemon who is a Christian with regard to Onesimus one who has been a slave belonging to Philemon. I had read the book many times over the years and I never really understood what was happening. Then somewhere in more recent times someone alerted me that it involved a slave/master situation. Paul was asking the Master [a Christian] to be merciful to the runaway slave [a Christian] who was coming back of his own accord.

What if it is you or me or that other guy who ran away from God? [Is He not our owner, our Master in a very real sense?] Now we decided to come back to Him. It provides a little different perspective on mankind than that of the prodigal son.

 

[amadeus]

i know, huh? We rush to deem ourselves pure, but we have vv that assure us we will be aghast, speechless, when the depth of our sin becomes known to us, although if i remember right that last part is kind of inferred; pretty sure "speechless" was in there, hmm, maybe it was "struck dumb"...dang, anyway “If You, Lord, should keep account of and treat [us according to our] sins, O Lord, who could stand?"
we will be speechless, when the depth of our sin becomes known to us - Google Search
we will be struck dumb when the depth of our sin becomes known to us - Google Search
in The Rev i think, can't find it now

the point maybe being that the heart is the seat of sin, whereas we like to imagine sin as being an outside force, right. Having Free Will gives one a vision of glory that desire seeks to manifest; we are no longer content with things as they are. God's Creation is deemed inadequate, or flawed, and we perceive a better way.

This is not the kind of power you can just wind up and set down anywhere, is consciousness. You are a god now, and seek worship, like any god does. We read of an antichrist sitting in the Holy of Holies and proclaiming (him)self to be God, not realizing that that is a description of where we reside, in our hearts; that is the place that we naturally occupy in our psyche, and a little conversion experience is hardly going to assail this perception at all. Plenty of space to worship God from there, is our belief; that is the definition of belief, 'a belief,' i bet

I don't recall anything in Revelation at the moment, but see these words from Isaiah:

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged." Isaiah 6:5-7

God knows our frailties. In Isaiah we see that he needed some work done on his mouth before he could speak to other people about their troubles. When we look back to Moses, we see that he tried to convince that he could not handle the job God has chosen him to do. God doesn't want someone who is too strong in himself. If He does choose such a person, He has to humble him before he is ready to get it done. All of us need to be humbled so God can then remold us into something useful in His plan.

See Moses in the beginning of his calling:

"And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.Exodus 4:10-13

But then see Moses later when his own brother and sister came up against him:

Num 12:3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

Moses had changed, had been changed.

I remember early in our walk with God, my wife used to call be Moses because I was so hesitant to open my mouth. That was a great many years ago. Moses I'm not, but God has at times used me when I have surrendered to his will. Somewhere along the line a seraphim may have touched my mouth with a live coal.

 

[amadeus]

sounds like diaspora to me

They were scattered seemingly without destination or purpose. That would be me if I was just going as I once did before I married. I saw Viet Nam and the Dominican Republic (military) first and then as a civilian not serving God I went to Bogotá, Mexico City, West Berlin and London. I still have a multitude of pictures taken but almost no real accomplishments... unless it was [and it probably was] preparation for what God has me doing now.

hmm, you are someplace right now lol

Yes, I have often thought about that. Some people say that the Internet is somehow a lessor place but people are here in a measure and so also is God because He is most often seen in people, if He is seen. Years ago I asked my pastor at the time what God wanted me to do with my Spanish and my German. He said a few things about foreign missions and such, but I never heard from God in that. Locally in the assembly where I attend, I speak and teach and preach as God fills my mouth, but right here and on other forums I have worked some of God's work. The extra known languages are primarily I guess to help give me a different perspective. The Spanish of course I use periodically with this or that person I meet who needs an interpreter, but I have yet to meet a German in this country who did not speak English. [I did translate documents when I was working for Uncle Sam, but that was hardly God's work.]