Paranoid Christianity

[amadeus]

Very well put ! I am as amazed at how far you have been able to come with The Lord and a Bible ( as far as truth goes ), as I was amazed at the Truth itself ( Himself ) and how He is able to meet us, where ever that may be, IF we are willing and show us truth as we are willing to hear........You are, what I refer to as, a believing believer lol, if that makes any sense to you ? Many claim to believe, but mostly what they display, is merely mental assent ...what you display is actual 'knowing' of something, huge difference.....It's a joy to read your posts....

The truth is as we know it is Jesus. To that most everyone on this forum will give that mental assent you mention, but there really is so much more.

Just give God the glory!

 

[forrestcupp]

I think one problem is that some people think that everyone is called to do the same thing. Is everyone called to be poor for the sake of Christ? Is everyone called to fast food? The point of fasting is not to earn points or to prove something to God. Fasting is not a hunger strike to try to force God's hand. The point of fasting is to crucify your flesh so that your spiritual interaction with God can become more prominent. If fasting is not a big deal to bbyrd, then is it really crucifying his flesh if it's not really a sacrifice? So maybe people who aren't even phased by fasting need to find another way to put their flesh down.

What about everyone being called to be poor? Did you notice that Jesus didn't go around telling everyone to sell everything they had? He only said that to this particular young man because Jesus looked within him and saw what was holding him back. My point is, it's not cookie cutter. We're not all called to be clones.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Corinthians 12:15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body.
1 Corinthians 12:16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body.
1 Corinthians 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

Sure, there are people called to poverty to show the world that it's not about money; it's about Jesus, and happiness doesn't come from money. But I don't believe everyone is called to that. I personally know of a couple who is very well off. They owned a huge house on a lake, with a fully furnished basement made into its own little apartment. Some people might look at them and despise them because they're fairly wealthy. Should God's people live that extravagantly. But if you were to sit down and talk with them, you may be surprised. There heart was to use that as a retreat for burnt out, or weary, ministers, missionaries, and Christian brothers and sisters who just needed some peace and rest. They would take people in and show them the gift of hospitality. They would love on them, and minister to them, and people left there refreshed to go back to their own places in the Kingdom.

In the unity thread, someone talked about how churches should be to where if someone has a need, the other members in the church kick in and help their brother or sister out. The whole key to that working is that there needs to be people who, not only are not in need, but they have excess to help people out.

Sometimes the Lord will call people into a radically different lifestyle than what they are used to. But I don't believe that's always the case. I believe a lot of times, the Lord will keep you in your current lifestyle, and radically change your mentality so that whatever you do is now for the Lord, and you use what God has given you to do the Lord's work. It changes from being mine to being His, but He has entrusted me to be a steward of what is His.

 

[bbyrd009]

What about everyone being called to be poor? Did you notice that Jesus didn't go around telling everyone to sell everything they had? He only said that to this particular young man because Jesus looked within him and saw what was holding him back.

hmm, not entirely disagreeing with your premise up there, but imo that is usually what is holding ppl back. And it is put in such a way that one may choose not to associate with the wealthy kid, sure.

I could go further, and make a case that "burnt-out pastors" need something other than a refuge from their poor choices--that, after all, got them burnt out in the first place, right--and that many people have this idea, this "i'll be a shepherd to the shepherds" thing, i know it sounds really pious, don't get me wrong; but there is no move toward humility, see, not meaning to judge your friends or anything, but it's a power play, more or less, a pride thing, in a dress.

we have like 3 friends in NC and elsewhere that do this, my parents wanted to do this, etc.

Don't get me wrong, ministering to the sick is a great thing, ok;
and that is what that will be revealed to be imo, at best

 

[forrestcupp]

hmm, not entirely disagreeing with your premise up there, but imo that is usually what is holding ppl back. And it is put in such a way that one may choose not to associate with the wealthy kid, sure.

I could go further, and make a case that "burnt-out pastors" need something other than a refuge from their poor choices--that, after all, got them burnt out in the first place, right--and that many people have this idea, this "i'll be a shepherd to the shepherds" thing, i know it sounds really pious, don't get me wrong; but there is no move toward humility, see, not meaning to judge your friends or anything, but it's a power play, more or less, a pride thing, in a dress.

we have like 3 friends in NC and elsewhere that do this, my parents wanted to do this, etc.

Don't get me wrong, ministering to the sick is a great thing, ok;
and that is what that will be revealed to be imo, at best

No, you're completely judging these guys wrong. It's my sister and brother-in-law, so I know their hearts very well. It's all about humility with them. There is no power play with that at all. Their whole heart is using what God has given them to serve others. And they don't do it in such a way that they are publicly glorified. As far as I've seen, it's all been done behind the scenes, and it has all been about them humbling themselves and giving of themselves to help people who need helped.

As for your assessment of "burnt out pastors," you're being pretty judgmental there, too. Pastors' scenarios and circumstances are not all cookie-cutter, where you can lump them all together and judge them all as one. You obviously have no idea what pastors go through. Being weary or worn down is most definitely not always because of bad decisions. People think that pastors only work on Sundays and Wednesday nights, and that they basically have 6 days off a week, so they should never miss a Sunday. People have no idea that most pastors are giving their lives and sacrificing family time by basically being on call 24/7. When things are going great, it's not because of the pastor. When things are going bad, it's the pastor's fault, or at least it's easy for the pastor to feel responsible, even though they know that's illogical. It's a heck of a lot harder life than anyone realizes, and sometimes pastors need a break so they can get away from having the church's circumstances being shoved in their faces, recuperate, refill themselves, and have a chance to get some vision while they have a break from having to focus on the daily grind. People really have no idea.

 

[Dcopymope]

No, you're completely judging these guys wrong. It's my sister and brother-in-law, so I know their hearts very well. It's all about humility with them. There is no power play with that at all. Their whole heart is using what God has given them to serve others. And they don't do it in such a way that they are publicly glorified. As far as I've seen, it's all been done behind the scenes, and it has all been about them humbling themselves and giving of themselves to help people who need helped.

As for your assessment of "burnt out pastors," you're being pretty judgmental there, too. Pastors' scenarios and circumstances are not all cookie-cutter, where you can lump them all together and judge them all as one. You obviously have no idea what pastors go through. Being weary or worn down is most definitely not always because of bad decisions. People think that pastors only work on Sundays and Wednesday nights, and that they basically have 6 days off a week, so they should never miss a Sunday. People have no idea that most pastors are giving their lives and sacrificing family time by basically being on call 24/7. When things are going great, it's not because of the pastor. When things are going bad, it's the pastor's fault, or at least it's easy for the pastor to feel responsible, even though they know that's illogical. It's a heck of a lot harder life than anyone realizes, and sometimes pastors need a break so they can get away from having the church's circumstances being shoved in their faces, recuperate, refill themselves, and have a chance to get some vision while they have a break from having to focus on the daily grind. People really have no idea.

"When things are going great, it's not because of the pastor. When things are going bad, it's the pastor's fault"

Yes, the sentiment of pretty much every single individual I have ever seen with a contemptuous attitude towards even the very idea of a church.

 

[bbyrd009]

No, you're completely judging these guys wrong. It's my sister and brother-in-law, so I know their hearts very well. It's all about humility with them. There is no power play with that at all. Their whole heart is using what God has given them to serve others. And they don't do it in such a way that they are publicly glorified. As far as I've seen, it's all been done behind the scenes, and it has all been about them humbling themselves and giving of themselves to help people who need helped.

As for your assessment of "burnt out pastors," you're being pretty judgmental there, too. Pastors' scenarios and circumstances are not all cookie-cutter, where you can lump them all together and judge them all as one. You obviously have no idea what pastors go through. Being weary or worn down is most definitely not always because of bad decisions. People think that pastors only work on Sundays and Wednesday nights, and that they basically have 6 days off a week, so they should never miss a Sunday. People have no idea that most pastors are giving their lives and sacrificing family time by basically being on call 24/7. When things are going great, it's not because of the pastor. When things are going bad, it's the pastor's fault, or at least it's easy for the pastor to feel responsible, even though they know that's illogical. It's a heck of a lot harder life than anyone realizes, and sometimes pastors need a break so they can get away from having the church's circumstances being shoved in their faces, recuperate, refill themselves, and have a chance to get some vision while they have a break from having to focus on the daily grind. People really have no idea.

understand that i don't necessarily ascribe to or wish to determine any truth in a specific matter; i am just making the argument.
but if you would Quote the relevant passage for "burnt out pastor" that might help

 

[bbyrd009]

"When things are going great, it's not because of the pastor. When things are going bad, it's the pastor's fault"

Yes, the sentiment of pretty much every single individual I have ever seen with a contemptuous attitude towards even the very idea of a church.

the reality is that the Church has already been defined, see, and it is presumptuous to imagine that a mortgaged building with a pastor who has signed a conflict of interest waiver can rightly call itself a "church," as painful as that might be to contemplate

 

[Dcopymope]

the reality is that the Church has already been defined, see, and it is presumptuous to imagine that a mortgaged building with a pastor who has signed a conflict of interest waiver can rightly call itself a "church," as painful as that might be to contemplate

......Yeah, and you are the one to judge what God can and cannot use for his purpose. I can assure you that God will take offense to that. You clearly have no idea what God is capable of. I suggest you go and get "caught up in the spirit" and find out.

(Romans 8:28) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

(Genesis 50:18-21) "And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. {19} And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? {20} But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. {21} Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them."

......What does "All" mean bbyrd009? Are you another one of those "believers" I wrote about claiming to know better than God? God will use whatever and whoever he wants.

 

[amadeus]

understand that i don't necessarily ascribe to or wish to determine any truth in a specific matter; i am just making the argument.
but if you would Quote the relevant passage for "burnt out pastor" that might help

It really need not read "burnt out pastor". It simply likely to be "burnt out" and one applicable verse is this one:

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal 6:9

The question we might ask is whether or not they are in the place God wants them be and striving at that which God wants them to strive. I believe that God calls pastors, but not all bearing the title have the calling. Of those who do have the calling not all are working at it as they should. So then, where from comes the weariness? I cannot say in every case the source, but the following words should contain an answer for many:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

Remember that when we take on a work for God, it is for Him, not for us. Also remember that we may never see the results we might like to see. This does not mean we have not done the work that He has called us to do.

 

[forrestcupp]

You're not going to find a pastor in the world who doesn't go through times of being weary. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with them doing things wrong. It's just an exhausting and thankless calling. You do have to take times when you come to Him and allow Him to give you rest. But most church people believe their pastor should be a superhuman being that does no wrong, and experiences nothing wrong, and that's just not true. Pastors are humans, too. Pastors have emotions and needs. Their feelings can get hurt. They get tired, too. Pastors always have to give of themselves, and it's rare when anyone pours back into them. They have to be there when a family member dies, or when someone finds out they have cancer. They're there for everyone's messes, and believe it or not, those messes can cause them to be emotional and stressed. I know you can quote a ton of scriptures about anxiety, but honestly, is there never a time when you're stressed? They spend countless hours studying the Word to teach people. Pastors of small churches often have to do all the administrative work, mow the lawn, take care of maintenance, as well as the normal pastoring work.

It's silly to think that pastors should never get tired and need a break. Everyone needs a break from time to time.

 

[aspen]

I think one problem is that some people think that everyone is called to do the same thing. Is everyone called to be poor for the sake of Christ? Is everyone called to fast food? The point of fasting is not to earn points or to prove something to God. Fasting is not a hunger strike to try to force God's hand. The point of fasting is to crucify your flesh so that your spiritual interaction with God can become more prominent. If fasting is not a big deal to bbyrd, then is it really crucifying his flesh if it's not really a sacrifice? So maybe people who aren't even phased by fasting need to find another way to put their flesh down.

What about everyone being called to be poor? Did you notice that Jesus didn't go around telling everyone to sell everything they had? He only said that to this particular young man because Jesus looked within him and saw what was holding him back. My point is, it's not cookie cutter. We're not all called to be clones.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Corinthians 12:15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body.
1 Corinthians 12:16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body.
1 Corinthians 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

Sure, there are people called to poverty to show the world that it's not about money; it's about Jesus, and happiness doesn't come from money. But I don't believe everyone is called to that. I personally know of a couple who is very well off. They owned a huge house on a lake, with a fully furnished basement made into its own little apartment. Some people might look at them and despise them because they're fairly wealthy. Should God's people live that extravagantly. But if you were to sit down and talk with them, you may be surprised. There heart was to use that as a retreat for burnt out, or weary, ministers, missionaries, and Christian brothers and sisters who just needed some peace and rest. They would take people in and show them the gift of hospitality. They would love on them, and minister to them, and people left there refreshed to go back to their own places in the Kingdom.

In the unity thread, someone talked about how churches should be to where if someone has a need, the other members in the church kick in and help their brother or sister out. The whole key to that working is that there needs to be people who, not only are not in need, but they have excess to help people out.

Sometimes the Lord will call people into a radically different lifestyle than what they are used to. But I don't believe that's always the case. I believe a lot of times, the Lord will keep you in your current lifestyle, and radically change your mentality so that whatever you do is now for the Lord, and you use what God has given you to do the Lord's work. It changes from being mine to being His, but He has entrusted me to be a steward of what is His.

We are all to love others perfectly, in our own unique ways

 

[Dcopymope]

We are all to love others perfectly, in our own unique ways

I thought there was only one way to "love"???

 

[amadeus]

You're not going to find a pastor in the world who doesn't go through times of being weary.

I am certainly not disagreeing with you. But in spite of weariness we cannot quit, whether we are a pastor or not. Each of us must strive to do what God called us to do. God understands our frailties better that we do and He will not be unfair at any time.

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with them doing things wrong. It's just an exhausting and thankless calling. You do have to take times when you come to Him and allow Him to give you rest.

My pastor was called to the ministry in 1936. For 66 years his wife was faithfully at his side. She passed on 5½ years ago and he marches on as a pastor and as one very tired old man, but he doesn't quit. I pray for him continuously and he goes ahead and encourages me one more time. His final rest from his work here approaches but it will not end until God ends it.

But most church people believe their pastor should be a superhuman being that does no wrong, and experiences nothing wrong, and that's just not true. Pastors are humans, too.

Absolutely, but this doesn't remove any responsibility that they have as a result of their calling from God. God understood why Moses was upset on God's behalf and so then struck the rock instead of only speaking to it... but Moses was still prevented from entering the Promised Land.

Pastors have emotions and needs. Their feelings can get hurt. They get tired, too. Pastors always have to give of themselves, and it's rare when anyone pours back into them.

And so often they have to stand alone when they so badly yearn for someone to be beside them really on their side. The ones who failed to be there when they could have may pay a price for their failures, but the pastors nevertheless still need to work at their calling. We all do even in the worst of times.

They have to be there when a family member dies, or when someone finds out they have cancer. They're there for everyone's messes, and believe it or not, those messes can cause them to be emotional and stressed. I know you can quote a ton of scriptures about anxiety, but honestly, is there never a time when you're stressed? They spend countless hours studying the Word to teach people. Pastors of small churches often have to do all the administrative work, mow the lawn, take care of maintenance, as well as the normal pastoring work.

I agree 100% but that doesn't change the pastor's responsibility if he is really a pastor called by God. Moses heard and resolved the problems of all the people [600,000 adult males plus women and children] all alone until he took advice and installed helpers. Sometimes there may be no helpers available and then it is all on you and God. You still really cannot quit your calling, can you?

It's silly to think that pastors should never get tired and need a break. Everyone needs a break from time to time.

It's silly to think that a break is needed from God when it is only our bodies and minds that need rest. The more we lean on Him the better we sleep at night. From our secular jobs we are given vacations and even retirement. From God's calling for us there is no vacation or rest until and if He relieves us. Is it hard? It is impossible for man alone, but what is impossible for God in us? The scripture says, Jesus wept", but it was not for himself that he wept even though he suffered more than all of us.

 

[aspen]

I thought there was only one way to "love"???

Serving others takes many forms

 

[Dcopymope]

Serving others takes many forms

You don't say hey..........like how? Of course, beyond the laundry list Jesus gave, like providing the needy with food, shelter, clothing, not treating others like garbage, or any worse than you would treat yourself, etc.

 

[forrestcupp]

I am certainly not disagreeing with you. But in spite of weariness we cannot quit, whether we are a pastor or not. Each of us must strive to do what God called us to do. God understands our frailties better that we do and He will not be unfair at any time.

Oh, I'm not talking about quitting or giving up. The discussion just came up because bbyrd was kind of ridiculing the need for ministers to have times of rest and recovery, and the need for there to be people called to serve in that way. I always hate to say it in venues like this, and I'll probably regret it, but I'm a pastor. I don't want people to receive me differently with that knowledge. But in this case, I'm bringing that to light so I can better explain myself.

I don't have any doubt of my calling. I give my heart for what the Lord has called me to do. I love the people that God has placed me with, and I take my commitment to them very seriously. I love my community, and my heart is for this community to experience God. I've been pastoring at this church for 14 years, and there have been many opportunities to give up, but there is a drive in me that won't let me give up.

The only point I was trying to make was to bring awareness that the life of a pastor is not easy, and they do have needs, too.

It's silly to think that a break is needed from God when it is only our bodies and minds that need rest. The more we lean on Him the better we sleep at night. From our secular jobs we are given vacations and even retirement. From God's calling for us there is no vacation or rest until and if He relieves us. Is it hard? It is impossible for man alone, but what is impossible for God in us? The scripture says, Jesus wept", but it was not for himself that he wept even though he suffered more than all of us.

You completely misunderstood me there. I was not talking about taking a break from God. I'm talking about needing a vacation now and then to get away from the daily grind and recharge spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. Like I said earlier, it's easy to get so caught up in all of the work and issues in your face all the time that sometimes it takes getting away to be able to seek the Lord for vision beyond what's right in front of you. Even Jesus had times that He wanted to be alone with the Father on top of the mountain.

Again, the only reason I even brought any of this up is because I was sharing my sister's calling to minister to weary ministers, and people were being judgmental about that, when they have an amazing and humble heart about it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, and you are the one to judge what God can and cannot use for his purpose.

i did not say that they did not serve God, they certainly do. I suggested contemplating, not judging wadr. It is what it is regardless of what it is, i'm sure you agree. The "churches" served God while they were open, and they serve God as closed hulks now imo, returned to their "rightful" owners. I expect something better to take their place, and so far i have not been disappointed

 

[bbyrd009]

Everyone needs a break from time to time.

so you say, and i agree this sounds right, but i suggest at least considering that this prevailing perspective might be one that arises from following the world too closely, and accepting the world's premises. Iow constructing a life that you don't need a vacation from might be a better way to go.

 

[bbyrd009]

You're not going to find a pastor in the world who doesn't go through times of being weary. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with them doing things wrong.

hmm, ok, maybe. But i'd like to admit here that "doing things wrong" is not so much a sin imo, as an impetus for change.

without putting too fine a point on it,
"come to Me, all ye who are weary..."

 

[bbyrd009]

You don't say hey..........like how? Of course, beyond the laundry list Jesus gave, like providing the needy with food, shelter, clothing, not treating others like garbage, or any worse than you would treat yourself, etc.

"Its hard to put a leash on a dog when you place a crown on its head." - Tyrion Lannister

good one lol