The Curtain is Coming Down Again.

[Helen]

Waiting hopefully ... :)

 

[bbyrd009]

So, are you saying that after this earthy walk/test...we do not actually live in His presence...
We will not be earthly flesh then...maybe tangible spirit as Jesus was after the resurrection.
If " flesh and blood cannot inherit" we wont be flesh and blood, obviously.

I know you can't stand to think about life when we are no longer flesh and blood..but humour me okay.

well, you are believing that you are flesh and blood right now, but really you are a spirit in a meat suit, might be a better way to put that. Christ has promised that He will never leave you nor forsake you, so if you are not in His presence right now, it is not His fault!

seek other interpretations for this "face to face," imo, that do not force misinterpretation of other Scripture. See Him as He is, iow. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit" the same way "the flesh profits nothing" imo, these are Scripture's way of putting things so as to hide them from the wise. Why can't flesh and blood inherit? I forget, would have to go look, but i can guarantee that the reason is some word-play that manipulates our perception (definition) of "flesh;" iow bc it is spirit that inherits or something similar...

ok, that goes off into what is misinterpreted as "rapture," the ultimate misdirection, so maybe better to reflect on the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," yet "the kingdom of God is within you." How can both be true iow

 

[amadeus]

face to face with a spirit? I suggest that our perceptions are being manipulated with that v fwiw. We are encouraged to imagine that we might see God or Christ with our two eyes, or iow to believe that we should expect a miracle, right. A visible miracle

Some people's perceptions are undoubtedly being manipulated with regard to the "face to face" and what it means, but what is it that you see or that I see or that @"ByGrace" sees?

It is very important to be able to see for Solomon wrote:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: ..." Prov 29:18

And what did Moses "see" here?

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. " Exo 33:11

Yet later in same chapter we read this:

"And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.


And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.


And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:


And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:


I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Exodus 33:18-23

And then consider these words written by David:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

The face of the Lord cannot be seen while a man lives, but the face of the Lord is to be sought. Perhaps God's face is His glory? Etc.

And how good is our vision now? What does Apostle Paul write?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Remember the Lord’s directions to Samuel:

"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." I Sam 16:7

And when Jesus comes on the scene:

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

The blind man became able to see every man clearly! Only God sees every man clearly. The Lord will touch our eyes again and we will be like Him and see Him as He is:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

And when we see Jesus clearly, we also see the Father clearly:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9

But with all of that let us not forget the first one I quoted...

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: ..." Prov 29:18

 

[Helen]

Good post John :)

 

[Stranger]

Why does it become irrelevant? Well, it is what is passing away.
yes, because our Scriptural example of a Theocracy turned out so well, right?

I'd like to believe that this is also true, was also what was going on, but we have abundant examples here on this forum of your generation's firm belief in the cult of Sol Invictus, if your statements here were not enough. Billy Graham might be a holdout, i notice that he did not dwell on "death, more abundantly" much...but this belief system preceded your generation by a hundred years at least i guess anyway, what seems perfectly natural to you to call "Christianity" now. My mom is sure that Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" too.

So you can believe that our churches have not experienced any attacks because they are so righteous if you like, but it doesn't seem to fit with reality very well imo. i understand the rules changed on you ok, that's what happens in the world; and luckily God doesn't care about your stated doctrine, but your real doctrine, mode of living, what Paul meant when he said "doctrine." And luckily we have always been generous, etc, even pulling for the underdog in our displays of the Hegelian Dialectic (go team).

but it should be obvious that a people who all seek literal death to be with Jesus tomorrow rather than ego-death to be with Jesus today are not going to be caring too much about today right. Or if they are, it will be the way you accuse me of not doing, not engaging with the world; the earth is strictly an afterthought iow. The world even becomes the earth, as many here would testify to i guess

so, disconnected from today in any way that matters, to the point that many "believers" even confidently state that it's ok to trash the planet bc "Jesus will make us a new one."

You want to make the world a better place, right.
seems like a really noble pursuit, huh
i even respect you for this, fwiw

So what? Just because the world is passing away doesn't mean you cease to exist in it. You are dying everyday. So don't do anything? That will help. Foolish.

I don't believe I have accused you of not engaging with the world. Indeed you represent the world from what I see. You do not represent what is Christian in any way shape or form.

When you say 'we have always been generous', who is the 'we'?

So much bs. you present. I am not interested in making the world a better place. But for the Christian to exist in peace in this world, there has to be political agreement between the Christian and the country he lives in.

Your respect means 'nothing'....I repeat...'nothing' to me.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

well, you are believing that you are flesh and blood right now, but really you are a spirit in a meat suit, might be a better way to put that. Christ has promised that He will never leave you nor forsake you, so if you are not in His presence right now, it is not His fault!

seek other interpretations for this "face to face," imo, that do not force misinterpretation of other Scripture. See Him as He is, iow. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit" the same way "the flesh profits nothing" imo, these are Scripture's way of putting things so as to hide them from the wise. Why can't flesh and blood inherit? I forget, would have to go look, but i can guarantee that the reason is some word-play that manipulates our perception (definition) of "flesh;" iow bc it is spirit that inherits or something similar...

ok, that goes off into what is misinterpreted as "rapture," the ultimate misdirection, so maybe better to reflect on the fact that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," yet "the kingdom of God is within you." How can both be true iow

Firstly...I am sorry. I see that you posted yours at 10.45am...
I did not get an Alert on it. I've noticed that I often miss posts through no Alert.
If John hadn't posted after you...I would have missed yours. I checked in on his, and saw yours. :) Thanks.

I had not heard the "meat suit" reference ...so that must be one of yours :)
Tent, Clay, yes, but your 'meat suit' brings it home graphically. lol
And obviously I agree. The real "me" lives inside the flesh. When in pain, I have kept telling myself this..." This is not me"...but it very much FEELS like me at the time!
Okay now..if you don't like the face to face ref, then use the words of David.
"Deep calleth unto deep..."
So, we agree that the Kingdom of God is within us...ie spirit.
To use C.S. Lewis... that which is withing is bigger than what is without.
The Spirit is a realm, Im sure we agree there.
The Spirit within is the Kingdom within... It goes on and an forever ..therefore 'a kingdom'...within.
It is a door to forever in God.
The 'meat' will rot and drop off and the bones will turn to dust in time..but the spirit lives on, in Him.
Like you so often remind us...it starts now...not in some future place.
But...here is my but...
Right now we can only see this kingdom within by faith...
But the scripture say that there will be a joining...the time of the Bride...the time of Union.
That which is invisible will become a visible kingdom.
At the very least...it will become known to us.
Maybe we'll all just be bright lights buzzing around with no shape.
Maybe the shape of Gabriel and Micheal which Mary and Daniel saw were just man-shape so they would comprehend the message...maybe once they had manifested themselves the turn back into just kingdom lights..

Mark... I have yet to hear you say...that you do believe any glorious future event in God.
If not, what do you do with what scripture says about things in the latter chapters of Revelation etc etc...?

I guess that will be enough for now to keep us going... :)

 

[bbyrd009]

So what? Just because the world is passing away doesn't mean you cease to exist in it.

i agree; you should have ceased to exist in it when you left it, as Christ commanded.

Instead everyone is all anxious to leave the earth, right

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't believe I have accused you of not engaging with the world.

But, don't try and do anything about it. Just love everybody.

 

[bbyrd009]

But for the Christian to exist in peace in this world, there has to be political agreement between the Christian and the country he lives in.

Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head

then cry peace, but there will be no peace, of course
Jeremiah 6:14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were ...
biblehub.com/jeremiah/6-14.htm
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. .... LORD concerning the prophets who lead my people astray; When they have something tobite with their teeth, They cry, "Peace," But against him who puts nothing in their mouths They declare holy war.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety ...
biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-3.htm
For when they are saying, "Peace and safety," then sudden destruction will come on them, like birth pains on a pregnant woman; and they will in no way escape. Aramaic Bible in Plain English When they shall say, “There is peace and quiet”, then suddenly destruction shall arise upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant ...

33 Bible verses about No Peace - Knowing Jesus

so make deals with the world--that is "passing away"--and call it "Christian" if you like ok, i can't stop you

 

[bbyrd009]

And obviously I agree. The real "me" lives inside the flesh. When in pain, I have kept telling myself this..." This is not me"...but it very much FEELS like me at the time!

well, i'm working with a 92 year old guy he still lays concrete every day. Fwiw he's a dedicated Italian Catholic, doesn't even speak English hardly. Not sure what to make of that, but there it is. Imo you should not be in pain, and if you are, the pain is an indicator of a problem that needs to be corrected.

Now you can trust a guy with a snake on a pole on his lapel for this if you like, but if you ask him what "allopathic medicine" means, you are going to be disappointed in your correcting of your problem, bc "allopathy" means "treatment of symptoms."

əˈläpəTHē/
noun

1. the treatment of disease by conventional means, i.e., with drugs having opposite effects to the symptoms.
   

   Okay now..if you don't like the face to face ref

   it's not that i don't like it, it's the way it is interpreted i don't like. I guess Amadeus prolly just covered this

 

[bbyrd009]

Right now we can only see this kingdom within by faith...
But the scripture say that there will be a joining...the time of the Bride...the time of Union.
That which is invisible will become a visible kingdom.
At the very least...it will become known to us.

no reason you can't "see" these today, Helen, "face to face" even.
The kingdom will not come by observation, however, so see how terms are being manipulated to play on your perceptions, intentionally

 

[bbyrd009]

Mark... I have yet to hear you say...that you do believe any glorious future event in God.

bc we do not yet know what we will become
give no thought for the morrow
etc. Doesn't mean i deny that there will be a future, but i recognize that if i can't even accurately visualize a field trip to a farm (a personal example), i better not be imagining that future i guess. After all, everyone else pretty much is, right? Haven't we all "made up our minds" there?

If not, what do you do with what scripture says about things in the latter chapters of Revelation etc etc...?

the same thing we are doing with "the flesh profits nothing, face to face" etc; getting a grasp of the spiritual context.
Christ is revealed all right, but that is bc He is hidden, not bc He went anywhere

 

[Helen]

well, i'm working with a 92 year old guy he still lays concrete every day. Fwiw he's a dedicated Italian Catholic, doesn't even speak English hardly. Not sure what to make of that, but there it is. Imo you should not be in pain, and if you are, the pain is an indicator of a problem that needs to be corrected.

Now you can trust a guy with a snake on a pole on his lapel for this if you like, but if you ask him what "allopathic medicine" means, you are going to be disappointed in your correcting of your problem, bc "allopathy" means "treatment of symptoms."

əˈläpəTHē/
noun

1. the treatment of disease by conventional means, i.e., with drugs having opposite effects to the symptoms.
   
   it's not that i don't like it, it's the way it is interpreted i don't like. I guess Amadeus prolly just covered this

I suppose I need a chiropractor , as it's probably the sciatic nerve on the right...pinched or something. The lower back I did last May, lifting a heavy bolder...I had 8 months paying for the chiro...then quit , but it seems more like permeant damage....as it comes and goes...depending how I lay in bed.
I wouldn't go to a doctor about either pain. Sometimes it's just an ache which isn't too much bother.
But, bottom like...the meat and bones feel very much like it's "me"!!

 

[Helen]

no reason you can't "see" these today, Helen, "face to face" even.
The kingdom will not come by observation, however, so see how terms are being manipulated to play on your perceptions, intentionally

Oh I agree, but every time Pia mentions seeing into the other realm she gets jumped upon!
I agree...and you know that I have seen angels in our bedroom.
Somedays I am very aware of the other kingdom.

I am just trying to get from you, what you think about the kingdom to come.
What we have right now is just a for-taste...the promise of that to come..
as in Hebrews 11..they confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims..they had not received the promise but saw the city a far off.

I have never ever yet seen you acknowledge that yet.
Can you say something in ref to this?
( or not, as the case may be)

 

[bbyrd009]

But for the Christian to exist in peace in this world, there has to be political agreement between the Christian and the country he lives in.

"
The Living God is the Lord of Life, and anything that is from God looks like life. The spirit of antichrist will try to organize people into structures that are obviously not like life, usually in the name of order and regularity: from kids gridlocked in classrooms reciting lessons blindly, to employees wasting their lives operating like dead marionettes, to patrons lined up in a church's rigid rows, listening to a salaried person preaching a pre-written message or singing pre-selected songs.

Whenever you feel you're part of a machine, you feel the spirit of antichrist. Whenever you can't say what's in your heart, or jump up and express gladness or grief; whenever anything you do, except sitting there and biting your tongue, is deemed inappropriate, you're experiencing the spirit of antichrist (1 Corinthians 14:26-32). Whenever your simple daily life seems entangled in procedures and rules, and you can never find one single caring person who's responsible and who can actually make a decision, you're experiencing the spirit of antichrist (Ephesians 6:12).

The spirit of Christ makes you a living thing in a living world. You'll grow into whichever direction the Lord leads you. You'll feel, sing, praise, weep and love wherever..." The amazing name Antichrist: meaning and etymology

 

[pia]

a chiropractor , as it's probably the static nerve on the right...pinched or something

Oh goodness, please be careful who you allow to touch you....nerves in trouble can cause more than just pain...If you believe it to be an injury get the best type of picture of your spine you can and then see....

 

[Helen]

Oh goodness, please be careful who you allow to touch you....nerves in trouble can cause more than just pain...If you believe it to be an injury get the best type of picture of your spine you can and then see....

Oh haha! I saw my quote in your post and noticed the spelling...I wrote "static" nerve, rather than sciatic nerve ...oh that is so funny. LOL

No worries...I did 8 months with him...three times a week.
He did get me from screaming and yelling every time I had to climb up on his table...to just groaning. It took months...I had done quite a number of it...and sleeping was hard. Some nights it still is if I lay wrong.
But hey...what am I doing...I am talking to the woman who REALLY has back problems!!!!

He's a good man, but retired now.

 

[pia]

He's a good man, but retired now

You are fortunate.....Not everyone out there is careful with peoples backs.....Hopefully you can get some help to ease it....Any 'un peace' in our bodies is a distraction...Best of 'luck'..:)

 

[Stranger]

"
The Living God is the Lord of Life, and anything that is from God looks like life. The spirit of antichrist will try to organize people into structures that are obviously not like life, usually in the name of order and regularity: from kids gridlocked in classrooms reciting lessons blindly, to employees wasting their lives operating like dead marionettes, to patrons lined up in a church's rigid rows, listening to a salaried person preaching a pre-written message or singing pre-selected songs.

Whenever you feel you're part of a machine, you feel the spirit of antichrist. Whenever you can't say what's in your heart, or jump up and express gladness or grief; whenever anything you do, except sitting there and biting your tongue, is deemed inappropriate, you're experiencing the spirit of antichrist (1 Corinthians 14:26-32). Whenever your simple daily life seems entangled in procedures and rules, and you can never find one single caring person who's responsible and who can actually make a decision, you're experiencing the spirit of antichrist (Ephesians 6:12).

The spirit of Christ makes you a living thing in a living world. You'll grow into whichever direction the Lord leads you. You'll feel, sing, praise, weep and love wherever..." The amazing name Antichrist: meaning and etymology

(1 Cor. 14:26-32) says absolutely nothing about what you claim.

(Eph. 6:12) says absolutely nothing about what you claim.

You offer nothing but empty and worthless babbling.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

well that was a quote, kind of hard for me to grasp at first too, i get you. Thank God for ppl who disagree, imo :)

I am just trying to get from you, what you think about the kingdom to come.
What we have right now is just a for-taste...the promise of that to come..
as in Hebrews 11..they confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims..they had not received the promise but saw the city a far off.

I have never ever yet seen you acknowledge that yet.
Can you say something in ref to this?

dunno if i answered this sufficiently yesterday, ya i could write a book on it lol, but suffice it to say that ppl universally wonder what happens to them after they die, and all the "no one knows where they go when they die" Scripture in the world would prolly not stop it. So, briefly, pretty much everyone sees a city far off, 13These all died in faith without having received the promises. But Abraham, 17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac.t He received the promises...

So imo Hebrews 11 is written to a certain pov, and it is hard to comment plainly on, bc after all i am not addressing anyone like this, right--37They were stoned,ap, aq they were sawed in two, they died by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins,ar destitute, afflicted, and mistreated.
38The •world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and on mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.

no; i am addressing ppl...who believe that Jesus is bodily returning for them at any moment, just like those in Jerusalem who gave all of their wealth away after Christ's parting statements to them were heard. Only no one here has given all of their wealth away either, prolly.

which pretty much constricts what i can say down to this; Abraham received the promises

which i guess doesn't help much, huh.
The "city far off" is a spiritual place, and Paul (almost surely Paul anyway) is addressing the understanding of...ppl who believe--who have made up their minds, rather--that their "real" life does not begin until they literally die, and meanwhile inserting the truth in the margins, that are not read.

it is easy to think that the Israelites were all one big happy belief system, that Paul was addressing, but see that this is not true at all; there were many Greek and even Roman philosophies that they were entertaining, and Paul addresses these at various places in the NT; that is actually prolly a better way to approach the NT i guess, by examining each of your premises against the NT, and eliminating them from your belief system.

Of course divisions in "the afterlife" will have to go to, and this is not going to be any pleasant walk in the park for most "believers" ok. i could post Scripture for this at length, but no one ever addresses them anyway

this is more difficult for us bc we are so deceived, or were so deceived for so long anyway, i guess knowledge is undergoing a revolution now. Understand I AM