Luke 14:15-24 Rapture Before Great Tribulation

[Davy]

Once again, the idea of 1 Thess.4:17 is what the word rapture is about, if you're going to use that term from the Latin Vulgate (the word rapture is not in the Greek NT manuscripts, the Greek word harpazo is, which the KJV translates as "caught up"). Those who came out of their graves when Jesus died on the cross were 'resurrected'. That's a different thing than being "caught up". Not only were those resurrected, they went into Jerusalem and were seen...

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

So NO... those saints WERE NOT ALIVE WHEN THAT HAPPENED. They were in GRAVES! They had been dead. And you misrepresented Iranaeus with your 'rapture' ideas.

 

[Copperhead]

Well true enough, harpazo is in the Greek. But the Latin translation of the Greek is Rapimier/raptus/rapturo, which is where we get our English transliterated word, Rapture.

Rapture/caught up is a different action that resurrected or changed (like believers who are alive when caught up). It is combining two different things into one.

Now, without any solid scriptural support either way, we only have early church writers to fall back on for some clarity. And many of them who had contact with the Apostles seemed to hold the conviction that these resurrected saints were caught up to heaven. I believe, as the first fruits sheave offering of the harvest as laid out in Leviticus 23. That is not the firstfuits of the resurrection, which Yeshua is. It is the first fruits of the harvest. Yeshua is our high priest, not part of the harvest.

 

[Davy]

If you consider that in Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus touching down on the Mount of Olives with his feet, splitting the mountain before engaging in battle with the world's armies as this return is with the "pre raptured" saints in verse 5 because in Revelation 20th chapter, Satan is defeated and is in the pit before that resurrection of the saints. That means Jesus has touched down on earth and is on earth and had battled the world's armies and defeating Satan to cast him into the pit for a thousand years.

Jesus' coming with all... His saints in Zechariah 14, back to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, is the time immediately after He has gathered both the asleep saints He brings with Him from Heaven, and the "caught up" saints which were still alive on earth. It's immediately after the 1 Thess.4:14-17 events. It is when the "day of the Lord" happens. It is when the "as a thief in the night" timing happens. It is when the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord" happens. It is when the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 events happen. It is when the Ezekiel 39 events of destruction upon the wicked happens. It is the Revelation 19 events of Jesus coming on a white horse. It is the timing of the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. It is the timing of the 6th Seal. God through His OT prophets said those things will occur suddenly, at an instant, which is where Apostle Paul got the idea, "at the twinkling of an eye" from in 1 Cor.15.

So the riddle of the "first resurrection" comes into play here. When read for why "first" is being used in that chapter is to explain that the resurrection of the saints as being only the saints as coming out of the great tribulation will happen "first" before the rest of the dead will happen later on. That is all first resurrection meant to convey; not that it was the only and first resurrection of saints.

Many totally miss what the 2nd implied resurrection is about. It will be another resurrection TYPE, like the 1st resurrection, but at the end of the 1,000 years. The first resurrection is unto Eternal Life in Jesus Christ. Only the faithful in Christ Jesus, including the OT faithful, will be of the 1st resurrection, and they will reign with Jesus throughout the 1,000 years over the nations, and they will rule on the earth, like Jesus said in Revelation 5:10. The nations outside the beloved city, on earth, like in Rev.22:14-15, are the Rev.20:5 "dead". Their souls are still in a 'dead' state, not saved in Christ Jesus.

During that 1,000 years, all those blinded will be taught, and some of those 'dead' (spiritually dead souls) will believe on Jesus. All will be required to worship Him, and all will see Him. The 2nd implied resurrection will be those who believe during that 1,000 years, and do not follow Satan when he is loosed one final time after the 1,000. These are judged after that, their names found in the book of Life. This is the reason for the GWT Judgment and looking for names in the book at the end. It will destroy those who still refuse Jesus, along with death and the abode of hell.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That is how believers are to apply "first resurrection" in context as meaning that resurrection of only the saints coming out of the great tribulation will happen first before the rest of the dead later on....

The 1st resurrection is not only for NT saints. It includes OT saints too. Remember about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached The Gospel to during His resurrection. As per Isaiah 42:7, Jesus led those in the pit prison out that believed on Him.

Per Zechariah 14:1-5 prophesy, the saints are coming back with the Lord and touching down on earth to do it. The resurrected saints coming out of the great tribulation are not meeting the Lord in the air when He is already on earth.

It would explain the separation of Christ the firstfruits from they that be Christ's at His coming in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

May God cause the increase in your search for the truth regarding this topic.

When the events of 1 Thess.4:14-17 occur, they occur at the same timing when Jesus comes. Jesus will descend with a shout of the trump, and will bring the asleep saints with Him from Heaven, and at the same time the saints still alive on earth are then "caught up" to Him and the asleep saints and become one group on the way to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. These events will occur very quickly. It will surprise the whole world, as the world will see it.


The Firstfruits Explained:

1 Cor 15:20
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
KJV

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Context! Context!

The audience to which this is directed is described in Zech 14:1-5 (NIV). There is nothing about the rapture in Zech 14. It has to do with calamity and restoration for Jerusalem (Israel).

Zechariah 12 prophesy is the same prophesy about the Lord's return in the 14th chapter.

As for the 14th chapter, the Lord is coming back with the saints which has to be the pre raptured ones since Revelation 20th chapter shows they that be Christ's at His coming are resurrected AFTER the defeat of Satan & the world's armies; thus those saints being resurrected are not meeting the Lord in teh air, now are they?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Once again, the idea of 1 Thess.4:17 is what the word rapture is about, if you're going to use that term from the Latin Vulgate (the word rapture is not in the Greek NT manuscripts, the Greek word harpazo is, which the KJV translates as "caught up"). Those who came out of their graves when Jesus died on the cross were 'resurrected'. That's a different thing than being "caught up". Not only were those resurrected, they went into Jerusalem and were seen...

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

So NO... those saints WERE NOT ALIVE WHEN THAT HAPPENED. They were in GRAVES! They had been dead.

The O.T. saints were not resurrected with a glorified body when Christ has not led the way yet into Heaven. Think Lazarus.

It is once Jesus has ascended first there, Jesus is preparing a place for us and the O.T. saints whom are now waiting in "Paradise" aka Abraham's bosom which the Lord took that place up to Heaven for the O.T. saints to reside in as well as future N.T. saints until that time at the pre raptured event where O.T. saints and N.T. saints that are abiding in Him as His disciples will "inherit" that firstfruits of the resurrection to sit at that table.

 

[BEB1956]

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

You all know how bad it will be at the end of the great tribulation and so who is Jesus talking to here? Who was invited by Him that had a place at the table BUT were excusing themselves from attending the King's Supper for the everyday cares of life? What christian would be tempted to do that at the end of the great tribulation as oppressive and terrible as it will be towards the end? How can any christian have the means to buy and sell, let alone own anything when they need the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell?

The times we are living in now... before the great tribulation... is what Jesus is warning the believers to not love this life more than Him to be like Lot's wife in not wanting to depart.

Oh yeah. There is a rapture coming before the great tribulation and many christians will love their lives on earth to not be willing to leave their lives & loved ones behind.

Jesus's warning is hardly applying towards the end of the great tribulation, so you all better be asking Jesus to help you be willing to go at a moment's notice and not just for help to be found abiding in Him, because no unrepentant workers of iniquity will be taken either. Those unrepentant saints left behind will be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House; 2 Timothy 2:18-21 & 1 Peter 4:17-19 so get ready to go now.

I don't agree with those who believe in a rapture, when the Scriptures they get such a notion is talking of a resurrection. The resurrection is the Hope for the dead. People being taken alive to heaven without dying I don't believe.

In the Scriptures Jesus prophesied that the last days would be like the days of Noah, who were eating and drinking and dealing with the everyday things of life until destruction was upon them. I'm thinking that these people were completely unaware of anything until they were being destroyed, just like it was in the days of Noah, so I don't think a rapture will happen for that reason also, because people would be aware of something before the destruction begins.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I don't agree with those who believe in a rapture, when the Scriptures they get such a notion is talking of a resurrection. The resurrection is the Hope for the dead. People being taken alive to heaven without dying I don't believe.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In the Scriptures Jesus prophesied that the last days would be like the days of Noah, who were eating and drinking and dealing with the everyday things of life until destruction was upon them. I'm thinking that these people were completely unaware of anything until they were being destroyed, just like it was in the days of Noah, so I don't think a rapture will happen for that reason also, because people would be aware of something before the destruction begins.

Per 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is the escape that Jesus talked about in Luke 21:33-36 of warning believers to be ready or else be cut off. The OP and the following 4 posts all cite His warning about how some will love their lives more than Him that they would not want to leave it when the Bridegroom comes to join Him at the supper table.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

All of His warnings in the first 5 posts of this thread and numerous others in scripture are warning believers in a time that is not descriptive of being at the end of the great tribulation at Jesus's second coming to earth to defeat the world's armies, Satan, and setting up His kingdom on earth.

The warnings are for the tribulation we are living in now when many are departing from faith and being overcharged by the cares of this life for why many will be left behind to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House to serve under the reign of the King of kings.

 

[OzSpen]

Zechariah 12 prophesy is the same prophesy about the Lord's return in the 14th chapter.

As for the 14th chapter, the Lord is coming back with the saints which has to be the pre raptured ones since Revelation 20th chapter shows they that be Christ's at His coming are resurrected AFTER the defeat of Satan & the world's armies; thus those saints being resurrected are not meeting the Lord in teh air, now are they?

You have not proven that from Zech 12 or 14. It is your opinion that these 2 chapters refer to the rapture. Assertions prove nothing.

 

[BEB1956]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Per 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is the escape that Jesus talked about in Luke 21:33-36 of warning believers to be ready or else be cut off. The OP and the following 4 posts all cite His warning about how some will love their lives more than Him that they would not want to leave it when the Bridegroom comes to join Him at the supper table.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

All of His warnings in the first 5 posts of this thread and numerous others in scripture are warning believers in a time that is not descriptive of being at the end of the great tribulation at Jesus's second coming to earth to defeat the world's armies, Satan, and setting up His kingdom on earth.

The warnings are for the tribulation we are living in now when many are departing from faith and being overcharged by the cares of this life for why many will be left behind to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House to serve under the reign of the King of kings.

I can see that 1 These. 4: 14- 18 is talking about a resurrection, not a rapture. That is the context of those Scriptures. They are simply saying that those who are still living will not be resurrected first, but those who have already died and are sleeping in death, which they have been sleeping for a long time, will be resurrected first. Then those who are still alive and who belong to Jesus during his second presence, when they die are instantly changed in the twinkling of eye and caught up to Jesus where they will be forever. That doesn't mean that some who belong to Jesus won't be left on earth and pass through the tribulation safely and forever live on earth.

According to Revelations 7: 14 it tells us that there will be ones that come out of the great tribulation. They exercise faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. If you remember Jesus spoke of great tribulation at Matthew 24: 21, 22. A preliminary fulfillment happen in 66 C.E., when Roman armies came against Jerusalem But then for some reason left giving those who were Jesus disciples to leave, obeying the warning st Luke 21: 20,21.
While Jerusalem destruction in 70 C.E. was a great tribulation on that religious city, the major fulfillment of Jesus words are futur. A greater religious city, Babylon the great, the world empire of false religion, is to experience a death dealing great tribulation followed immediately by an unparalleled tribulation on the rest of Satan's system of things. Some 26 years after that the destruction of Jerusalem, the Apostle John at Revelations 7: 9- 14, wrote about this world embracing great tribulation. He showed that a great crowd of people would survive it.
The point is that no one gets raptured away. Just as Noah past through the destruction without being carried away off earth, there will be those who will be righteous during the great tribulation who will pass through it unharmed.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I can see that 1 These. 4: 14- 18 is talking about a resurrection, not a rapture.

You say that but....

That is the context of those Scriptures. They are simply saying that those who are still living will not be resurrected first, but those who have already died and are sleeping in death, which they have been sleeping for a long time, will be resurrected first. Then those who are still alive and who belong to Jesus during his second presence, when they die are instantly changed in the twinkling of eye and caught up to Jesus where they will be forever.

Paul did not mention death to those who are alive and remain before meeting up with the Lord in the air when He is descending from Heaven with a shout.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

To misapply the words above is to infer that for those that are alive and remain, the Lord will descend with a shout every time a believer dies after that resurrection of the dead. That is not what Paul said. It is a one time event and the living abiding in Him as His disciples will be joining with those saints found worthy to be resurrected from the dead to partake of the first harvest as the firstfruits of the resurrection in joining Christ above forever.

That doesn't mean that some who belong to Jesus won't be left on earth and pass through the tribulation safely and forever live on earth.

No saint can lose their name in the Book of Life, BUT they can lose their portion which is their first inheritance to live in the city of God. This is why Esau and the prodigal son are mentioned in the N.T. and why Jesus was warning believers that if they are not prepared but found in iniquity or loving their lives more than Him to not want to leave, they will become castaways as warned in each scriptural reference in the first 5 posts of this thread.

According to Revelations 7: 14 it tells us that there will be ones that come out of the great tribulation. They exercise faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. If you remember Jesus spoke of great tribulation at Matthew 24: 21, 22. A preliminary fulfillment happen in 66 C.E., when Roman armies came against Jerusalem But then for some reason left giving those who were Jesus disciples to leave, obeying the warning st Luke 21: 20,21.
While Jerusalem destruction in 70 C.E. was a great tribulation on that religious city, the major fulfillment of Jesus words are futur. A greater religious city, Babylon the great, the world empire of false religion, is to experience a death dealing great tribulation followed immediately by an unparalleled tribulation on the rest of Satan's system of things. Some 26 years after that the destruction of Jerusalem, the Apostle John at Revelations 7: 9- 14, wrote about this world embracing great tribulation. He showed that a great crowd of people would survive it.
The point is that no one gets raptured away. Just as Noah past through the destruction without being carried away off earth, there will be those who will be righteous during the great tribulation who will pass through it unharmed.

Not when Satan is waging war on the saints as those under the altar in Revelation are told to wait till the number of their brethren are slain during that small season of the great tribulation.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are the ones left behind as in not resurrected at the pre great trib raptured but are still His and waiting under the altar to wait for those living that were left behind to join them in death.

When you discern by Him how a regular scroll is opened by the breaking of that solitary seal, then you may understand how the contents of the scroll do not happen unless all of the seven seals are broken which means it is happening all at once to set up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth after the calamity that will set up the coming great tribulation.

Thank you for discussing this with me. I am not sure how long the Lord would have me continue if at all, but I trust Him to direct my foot steps in following Him.

 

[Taken]

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

[/QUOTE]27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. [/QUOTE]

Adding...

SO shall it be ALSO in the days of the Son of man.....

Where was the death and destruction in Noah's day?

Gen 7:23
...upon the face of the ground...

Where was Noah?

Gen 7:18
RISEN UP.......upon the face of the water...

Where shall the death and destruction be in the future?

Zeph 3:8
....the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Where shall the Men IN Christ be?

1 Thes 4:
RISEN UP......in the clouds with the Lord...

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Davy]

Zechariah 12 prophesy is the same prophesy about the Lord's return in the 14th chapter.

As for the 14th chapter, the Lord is coming back with the saints which has to be the pre raptured ones since Revelation 20th chapter shows they that be Christ's at His coming are resurrected AFTER the defeat of Satan & the world's armies; thus those saints being resurrected are not meeting the Lord in teh air, now are they?

There is no such thing as a "pre raptured" idea, because the harpazo ("caught up") is merely about the saints that are still alive on earth on the day of Jesus' coming from Heaven being seized to Him. It is not about the asleep saints who are resurrected first which Jesus brings with Him.

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV


The resurrection is NOT about harpazo ("caught up").


1. Resurrection Happens First; Jesus Brings Aleep (resurrected) Saints with Him:
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2. Then The Alive Saints are Caught Up:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

That's about 2 separate groups of saints being gathered from 2 separate locations. And this what 1 Thess.4 shows, and it's also what Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 shows. It's a simple matter when one sticks to the Scripture as it's actually written.

 

[Davy]

The O.T. saints were not resurrected with a glorified body when Christ has not led the way yet into Heaven. Think Lazarus.

It is once Jesus has ascended first there, Jesus is preparing a place for us and the O.T. saints whom are now waiting in "Paradise" aka Abraham's bosom which the Lord took that place up to Heaven for the O.T. saints to reside in as well as future N.T. saints until that time at the pre raptured event where O.T. saints and N.T. saints that are abiding in Him as His disciples will "inherit" that firstfruits of the resurrection to sit at that table.

I really don't think you understand even the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that you appear to be on. It's a theory that began with certain factions in 1830's Great Britain. It's an idea that was never preached in the Christian Church for over 1,800 years. So I suggest you seriously research the origin of the doctrine and learn its history if you're going to believe the theory.

Jesus is the firstfruits of those that slept, like I showed from 1 Corinthians 15:20. So that idea is coupled with Apostle Paul's idea in 1 Thess.4 that when Jesus comes He will bring the asleep saints with Him. They are already in the Heavenly, and I agree they are in Paradise on the side with Abraham (like Luke 16). Those are not 'raptured' when Jesus comes. Those involve the resurrection when Jesus comes. Those who are "caught up" (i.e., raptured), when Jesus comes, are the saints that are still alive on earth who remain.

Both the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine and the Post-trib Rapture doctrine agree with that. The difference between pre and post is that the Pre-trib Rapture theory believes those events happen BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. The Post-trib Rapture doctrine treats those events as happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

 

[Taken]

I really don't think you understand even the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that you appear to be on. It's a theory that began with certain factions in 1830's Great Britain. It's an idea that was never preached in the Christian Church for over 1,800 years. So I suggest you seriously research the origin of the doctrine and learn its history if you're going to believe the theory.

Jesus is the firstfruits of those that slept, like I showed from 1 Corinthians 15:20. So that idea is coupled with Apostle Paul's idea in 1 Thess.4 that when Jesus comes He will bring the asleep saints with Him. They are already in the Heavenly, and I agree they are in Paradise on the side with Abraham (like Luke 16). Those are not 'raptured' when Jesus comes. Those involve the resurrection when Jesus comes. Those who are "caught up" (i.e., raptured), when Jesus comes, are the saints that are still alive on earth who remain.

Both the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine and the Post-trib Rapture doctrine agree with that. The difference between pre and post is that the Pre-trib Rapture theory believes those events happen BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. The Post-trib Rapture doctrine treats those events as happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Thes. Rapture is about raising BODY'S.
Dead Body's of saints are buried.
....their living soul is in heaven.
....their living spirit is in Gods Hands
Jesus descends to the Clouds.
....He calls up the body's of the dead saints.
....They rise in a glorious body.
....They meet Jesus in the air.
Jesus has their reward with Him.
.....Their reward is, their
.....Living soul, in their glorified body
.....Living spirit, in their glorified body
.....Glorified body

BODY'S of "physically Alive" saints ....
....Have their living soul in their body.
....Have their living spirit in their body.
They are then Raised in their glorified body.
Their Living soul, is in their glorified body
Their Living spirit, is in their glorified body

This is what was Effected during a mans Conversion....and now manifested so mans new SPIRITUAL eyes, in his GLORIFIED body can now SEE....and also SEE their Lord, their God.....AS HE IS.

When ALL eyes of those ON the earth can SEE Jesus coming in the clouds....It is the Son of man, Jesus, that they SEE.

Men in their Glorified BODY'S shall SEE what they have been WAITING "to" SEE.

Is this your understanding?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

There is no such thing as a "pre raptured" idea, because the harpazo ("caught up") is merely about the saints that are still alive on earth on the day of Jesus' coming from Heaven being seized to Him. It is not about the asleep saints who are resurrected first which Jesus brings with Him.

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV


The resurrection is NOT about harpazo ("caught up").


1. Resurrection Happens First; Jesus Brings Aleep (resurrected) Saints with Him:
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2. Then The Alive Saints are Caught Up:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

That's about 2 separate groups of saints being gathered from 2 separate locations. And this what 1 Thess.4 shows, and it's also what Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 shows. It's a simple matter when one sticks to the Scripture as it's actually written.

Since you are judging by what is actually written in scripture, you left out verse 15.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In context, it supports my belief that Paul is speaking of an event where the dead in Christ & the living disciples will be taken up together to meet the Lord in the air to be forever with the Lord.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I really don't think you understand even the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that you appear to be on. It's a theory that began with certain factions in 1830's Great Britain. It's an idea that was never preached in the Christian Church for over 1,800 years. So I suggest you seriously research the origin of the doctrine and learn its history if you're going to believe the theory.

Jesus is the firstfruits of those that slept, like I showed from 1 Corinthians 15:20. So that idea is coupled with Apostle Paul's idea in 1 Thess.4 that when Jesus comes He will bring the asleep saints with Him. They are already in the Heavenly, and I agree they are in Paradise on the side with Abraham (like Luke 16). Those are not 'raptured' when Jesus comes. Those involve the resurrection when Jesus comes. Those who are "caught up" (i.e., raptured), when Jesus comes, are the saints that are still alive on earth who remain.

Both the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine and the Post-trib Rapture doctrine agree with that. The difference between pre and post is that the Pre-trib Rapture theory believes those events happen BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. The Post-trib Rapture doctrine treats those events as happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

God is judging His House first; 1 Peter 4:17-19 So ask yourself when that is being done and how.

Paul spoke that one can lose rewards of crowns and even something more dire; becoming a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Jesus warned of this cutting off of any believer not abiding in Him as His disciple in John 15:6

Jesus warned in post #5 of this thread in Luke 12:40-49 that believers can be cut off with unbelievers to face the calamity of fire on the earth

2 Peter 3rd chapter warned of this calamity of fire for why believers should be prepared and abiding in Him from the ways the world runs.

Paul taught excommunication of unrepentant brethrens as giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh symbolically and yet God will do this in reality in excommunicating as in cutting off reprobates, the disqualified, from eating in fellowship with those abiding in Him as His disciples as Paul stressed in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter not to eat with. So as Paul instructed as led by the Spirit of God, so will God do.

The pre great trib rapture is NOT a happy escape for all believers in Christ because that is when God will judge His House of what each believer has built on that foundation as described in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 wherein any who defile the temple of God will be destroyed as in physical death, unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes. Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 4:18

So I am not following any man's theory or Hollywood's presentation of what they believe the rapture is; by the grace of God and His help, I am following His words on the subject. The warnings of Jesus's are for the times we are living in for when we would be taken to meet Him in the air; not at the end of the great tribulation when He comes back to earth to establish His reign as King of kings.

 

[Taken]

God is judging His House first; 1 Peter 4:17-19 So ask yourself when that is being done and how.

Paul spoke that one can lose rewards of crowns and even something more dire; becoming a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Jesus warned of this cutting off of any believer not abiding in Him as His disciple in John 15:6

Jesus warned in post #5 of this thread in Luke 12:40-49 that believers can be cut off with unbelievers to face the calamity of fire on the earth

2 Peter 3rd chapter warned of this calamity of fire for why believers should be prepared and abiding in Him from the ways the world runs.

Paul taught excommunication of unrepentant brethrens as giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh symbolically and yet God will do this in reality in excommunicating as in cutting off reprobates, the disqualified, from eating in fellowship with those abiding in Him as His disciples as Paul stressed in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter not to eat with. So as Paul instructed as led by the Spirit of God, so will God do.

The pre great trib rapture is NOT a happy escape for all believers in Christ because that is when God will judge His House of what each believer has built on that foundation as described in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 wherein any who defile the temple of God will be destroyed as in physical death, unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes. Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 4:18

So I am not following any man's theory or Hollywood's presentation of what they believe the rapture is; by the grace of God and His help, I am following His words on the subject. The warnings of Jesus's are for the times we are living in for when we would be taken to meet Him in the air; not at the end of the great tribulation when He comes back to earth to establish His reign as King of kings.

I also believe "believers" can be cut off.

I have spoken of this to no avail.
The Disciples learned daily for 3 years.
And once going out to teach and preach...
The crowds may have only heard ONE sermon, received ONE letter....maybe twice, maybe thrice.....but the majority were Jews, the Apostles were teaching; and it was BIG news to them, and difficult.
Moving on to Paul whose mission was primarily the Gentiles; it was BIG news to them also, and difficult.

Nothing has changed. Any person first hearing and learning about Christ, it IS Big news to them, and difficult.

Point being, the Hearing and Learning is the BIGINNING of faith....certainly not the receiving of Salvation.

Point being, there is always a learning period...for some it is weeks, months, and for others years....

Well YES, they are "believers"...followers of the Word of God, followers of Christ....

BUT THEY ARE NOT CONVERTED!!
They are not forgiven, saved, born again, nor have the Indwelling Holy Spirit...

And yes they can sin.
And yes they can walk away.
And yes they will be cast out....less they have become Converted before Jesus returns.

Becoming Converted requires a man to HEARTFULLY Believe and WILLINGLY give his LIFE, to Christ the Lord Jesus.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I also believe "believers" can be cut off.

I have spoken of this to no avail.
The Disciples learned daily for 3 years.
And once going out to teach and preach...
The crowds may have only heard ONE sermon, received ONE letter....maybe twice, maybe thrice.....but the majority were Jews, the Apostles were teaching; and it was BIG news to them, and difficult.
Moving on to Paul whose mission was primarily the Gentiles; it was BIG news to them also, and difficult.

Nothing has changed. Any person first hearing and learning about Christ, it IS Big news to them, and difficult.

Point being, the Hearing and Learning is the BIGINNING of faith....certainly not the receiving of Salvation.

Once they believe in Him, they are saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to teach others in how to live as His disciples which is still by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd in learning of Him that He will help us to understand His words in the KJV and help us to follow Him by abiding in His words.

Point being, there is always a learning period...for some it is weeks, months, and for others years....

Well YES, they are "believers"...followers of the Word of God, followers of Christ....

BUT THEY ARE NOT CONVERTED!!
They are not forgiven, saved, born again, nor have the Indwelling Holy Spirit...

And yes they can sin.
And yes they can walk away.
And yes they will be cast out....less they have become Converted before Jesus returns.

Becoming Converted requires a man to HEARTFULLY Believe and WILLINGLY give his LIFE, to Christ the Lord Jesus.

God Bless,
Taken

If you place being saved as being converted as separate from believing in Him, then I have to disagree. That would be laboring in unbelief as the Catholics do in their works of catholicism to obtain salvation by through the "Church".

Just know that because a believer is saved just by believing in Him, it does not mean they are followers of Him as His disciples. That is why every believer will be judged by what they build on that foundation in that very day when God shall judge His House first before He comes back later on to judge the world. 1 Peter 4:17-19 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

 

[Willie T]

As far as "dating" the times of tribulation, I love how no one ever seems to give any credence to Rev. 1:9.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

As far as "dating" the times of tribulation, I love how no one ever seems to give any credence to Rev. 1:9.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We are in the tribulations of the latter days where false Christs and false prophets are residing to seduce and lead believers away from the faith.

That is why God is judging His House first at that rapture to deal with those astray in casting them behind to restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.

The pre great trib rapture happens before the calamity of fire comes on the earth from which it will serve as a catalyst for the coming great tribulation.

John 16:33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The warning to churches is to avoid being cast into the great tribulation.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.