Built On The Wrong Apostle

[amadeus]

Of course, sorry.....I guess I allowed an emotion to enter into that one..Most of the time I'm ok, but other times, when people are attacked in one form or another, I can get a little antzy...

I do hear you loud and clear. Sometimes on the other hand I don't back away when I really need to...

 

[FHII]

You didn't answer the question.
Why is Peter called "Protos" (first) - when he wasn't the first chosen??

I did answer the question. He was the most predominant of them.

did Jesus pray for Peter ALONE to strengthen his brothers??
He was praying for Peter so that he could SERVE the others. Jesus told them that the greatest among them would have to SERVE the rest.

Not so. He was about to be sifted by Satan and he needed to be converted before he could even think about serving or strengthening his brothers. That comes right after the verses I was speaking of.

Why didn't He pray for each one of them to be strengthened??
It's because Peter was the Chief Apostle

No... Because Peter was the one in danger. The others weren't about to deny him. Like I told Marymog: Peter was temporarily in the weakest state. If you don't like the wording of that, he certainly was the most vulnerable.

Matt. 16:18 says that Peter and Peter ALONE received the Keys from Jesus. This echos Isaiah 22:22 where God gives the Keys to the House of Israel to Eliakim. The Keys signify complete Authority.

You didn't answer the question. Did Peter alone have the power to bind and loose?

Jesus NEVER asked ANY other Apostle to feed His sheep or tend His flock. Not ONE - except for Peter . . .

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I suppose this has nothing to do with feeding %he sheep in you pov, huh?

 

[FHII]

Secondly - You admit to protesting Catholic doctrine - yet you don't consider yourself "Protestant", which is a ridiculous contradiction.

Actually I said I am not protesting anything other than false doctrine. And you say I admitted to protesting the Catholic Church?

Hmmmm...

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did answer the question. He was the most predominant of them.

No - I asked WHY was he mentioned as the "First" Apostle??
WHY was he predominant?

Not so. He was about to be sifted by Satan and he needed to be converted before he could even think about serving or strengthening his brothers. That comes right after the verses I was speaking of.

That's NOT what I asked.
I asked - WHY did Jesus pray for Peter ALONE to strengthen his brothers??. Why not pray for all of the others instead??

He prayed for Peter alone so that he could SERVE his brothers by bringing them back to faith as their leader..

No... Because Peter was the one in danger. The others weren't about to deny him. Like I told Marymog: Peter was temporarily in the weakest state. If you don't like the wording of that, he certainly was the most vulnerable.

WRONG.

They ALL lost faith and had to be brought back. Jesus chose Peter for this task because he was the Chief Apostle.
there is NO other logical explanation for the fact that Jesus didn't pray for the others. He made Peter responsible for the others - just as He did at the Garden of Gethsemane later that same night.

You didn't answer the question. Did Peter alone have the power to bind and loose?

No - and that power doesn't only belong to the Pope either. ALL priests have that God-given power.
Peter, however, was the ONLY one singled-out for this power - and was singled-out before it was given to the others.

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I suppose this has nothing to do with feeding %he sheep in you pov, huh?

No - He never tells them to tend His flock in the Final Commission.

Case in point - a Pastor tends his local flock - and the Bishop tends the regional flock.
However - the Pope tends the entire flock at large.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually I said I am not protesting anything other than false doctrine. And you say I admitted to protesting the Catholic Church?

Hmmmm...

Maybe that's because you have accused the Church of teaching false doctrine before.
NEITHER of us are "new" to this forum . . .

 

[FHII]

I asked - WHY did Jesus pray for Peter ALONE to strengthen his brothers??. Why not pray for all of the others instead??

That's not what Jesus prayed for. The question is in error, but my answer is correct.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


He then says, "and when...". Strenthening his brothten wasn't part of the prayer. That was something he could do once he was converted.

Jesus didn't pray for the others because they didn't need it concerning this matter. They weren't the ones about to deny Jesus.

No - and that power doesn't only belong to the Pope either. ALL priests have that God-given power.
Peter, however, was the ONLY one singled-out for this power - and was singled-out before it was given to the others.

Good. Then I've made my point.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's not what Jesus prayed for. The question is in error, but my answer is correct.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

He then says, "and when...". Strenthening his brothten wasn't part of the prayer. That was something he could do once he was converted.
Jesus didn't pray for the others because they didn't need it concerning this matter. They weren't the ones about to deny Jesus.

This is a Biblically-bankrupt statement.
The other Apostles HID in the Upper Room - along with Peter. They all abandoned Him (Mark 14:50).
YOU'RE saying that they didn't abandon Him and lose faith?? Again - what perverse translation of Scripture are YOU reading??

They ALL lost faith - but Jesus prayed for Peter's faith so that he could strengthen the rest.
This is the commission of a leader.

Good. Then I've made my point.

Good - so your point was that Peter was the ONLY one singled-out for this power - and was singled-out before it was given to the others.
Glad you agree . . .

 

[FHII]

Maybe that's because you have accused the Church of teaching false doctrine before.
NEITHER of us are "new" to this forum . .

Yes I have. Not in over a year though. I vowed to govern myself and stick to errors in doctrine and address them without pointing fingers at either people or denominations. I rarely even utter the word "Catholic Church" unless its speaking in a historical sense or unless addressed with a particular issue concerning only the Catholic Church. I have only had to mention Catholic in this thread because of charges of being anti-catholic and outrage that I reject the man made label of protestant.

Not saying I don't slip up from time to time... I said one thing to Kelpha that was a bit snide. But other than that... Its a practice I have abandoned.

This thread is titled built on the wrong apostle. We have moved away from the initial conversation and are bickering about just how important Peter is.

My point is that the church is built on the apostles and prophets (not just Peter or Paul alone). I didn't get alot of amens for that. Just alot of "I never said that". I suppose with this crowd I shoul be happy with that.

I have said time and time again how important and prominant Peter was and still is. I sometimes said opredominant but meant prominant. Small matter. I just don't see him being "chief" when Jesus said it wouldn't be so.

Paul, however was equally prominent and had a much larger roll (not more important) in building the foundation of the church.

So... I really don't see a point in continuing debating Peter's real or perceived roll.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes I have. Not in over a year though. I vowed to govern myself and stick to errors in doctrine and address them without pointing fingers at either people or denominations. I rarely even utter the word "Catholic Church" unless its speaking in a historical sense or unless addressed with a particular issue concerning only the Catholic Church. I have only had to mention Catholic in this thread because of charges of being anti-catholic and outrage that I reject the man made label of protestant.

Not saying I don't slip up from time to time... I said one thing to Kelpha that was a bit snide. But other than that... Its a practice I have abandoned.

This thread is titled built on the wrong apostle. We have moved away from the initial conversation and are bickering about just how important Peter is.

My point is that the church is built on the apostles and prophets (not just Peter or Paul alone). I didn't get alot of amens for that. Just alot of "I never said that". I suppose with this crowd I shoul be happy with that.

I have said time and time again how important and prominant Peter was and still is. I sometimes said opredominant but meant prominant. Small matter. I just don't see him being "chief" when Jesus said it wouldn't be so.

Paul, however was equally prominent and had a much larger roll (not more important) in building the foundation of the church.

So... I really don't see a point in continuing debating Peter's real or perceived roll.

Actually - Jesus never said that there wouldn't be a leader among them.

They were nickering about who would be regarded as the greatest. It was then that Jesus said that they would NOT be like worldly leaders who confer upon themselves positions of greatness. He said that the one who would be considered the greatest among them would be the one that served the others.

Peter was that one - and Jesus made sure of it by praying for him alone to strengthen the others.
As Catholics - we don't "worship" Peter or even think he was the "greatest" person who ever lived. We simply recognize his office and respect the man - warts and all.

 

[aspen]

Yes I have. Not in over a year though. I vowed to govern myself and stick to errors in doctrine and address them without pointing fingers at either people or denominations. I rarely even utter the word "Catholic Church" unless its speaking in a historical sense or unless addressed with a particular issue concerning only the Catholic Church. I have only had to mention Catholic in this thread because of charges of being anti-catholic and outrage that I reject the man made label of protestant.

Not saying I don't slip up from time to time... I said one thing to Kelpha that was a bit snide. But other than that... Its a practice I have abandoned.

This thread is titled built on the wrong apostle. We have moved away from the initial conversation and are bickering about just how important Peter is.

My point is that the church is built on the apostles and prophets (not just Peter or Paul alone). I didn't get alot of amens for that. Just alot of "I never said that". I suppose with this crowd I shoul be happy with that.

I have said time and time again how important and prominant Peter was and still is. I sometimes said opredominant but meant prominant. Small matter. I just don't see him being "chief" when Jesus said it wouldn't be so.

Paul, however was equally prominent and had a much larger roll (not more important) in building the foundation of the church.

So... I really don't see a point in continuing debating Peter's real or perceived roll.

Strongly agree that you have made a positive effort to stay away from bickering and attacking doctrine /churches. I have been encouraged to make changes from your example. I still have a way to go.

 

[Nomad]

Nonsense.
This is NO different that my wife coming up with an idea and ME saying, "You know what? I've decided that this is a good idea."

Peter laid down his decision and James agreed.

You're grasping at straws. James' judgement/decision resulted in James issuing instructions, not Peter. It's obvious that mere "agreement" is not the issue here. Again, Peter just didn't seem to realize he was the first pope.

...and ONLY Peter was given the Keys to the Kingsom of Heaven.

First, a peculiar commission says nothing regarding preeminence. The other problem you face is the interpretation of the keys. They are mentioned in such close proximity to binding and loosing, that they may be one and the same. I await your argument in this regard.

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

[epostle1]

It seems that most on this thread think that Jesus (God) has set up just another religious church run by men and and that trusting in it is the way to heaven.

Jesus did not setup a church. He setup a way for sinners to be saved and that way is not through a church. It is through faith. Faith in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross where He (God) paid for all the sins of the world. Faith is not a church. Faith is believing God. It is faith, trust, and confidence in what God did on the cross for mankind. But the religious think it is all about what they do in religion. If salvation is by what mankind does in religion then everyone is going to hell. God will not let the work of His Son on the cross be overshadowed by the religions of man.

Matthew 16:18
New Living Translation
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.

English Standard Version
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Berean Study Bible
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Berean Literal Bible
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades not will prevail against it.

New American Standard Bible
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

King James Bible
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Christian Standard Bible
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Contemporary English Version
So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it.

Good News Translation
And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it.

NET Bible
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

New Heart English Bible
I also tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Also I say to you, that you are Kaypha, and upon this stone I shall build my church, and the gates of Sheol will not withstand it.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You are Peter, and I can guarantee that on this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell will not overpower it.

New American Standard 1977
“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.

King James 2000 Bible
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

American King James Version
And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

American Standard Version
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

H. Richard Translation:
Jesus did not setup a church.

Richard, you are putting your faith in faith. A church is supposed to nurture ones faith. You have created a false dichotomy between "faith" and "church". One is a community of believers, the other is a virtue. They are not opposed to each other.

 

[mjrhealth]

they always leave out the important bit

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

because mens churches are built on lies and has no revelation.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

so blind

 

[H. Richard]

Matthew 16:18
New Living Translation
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.

English Standard Version
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Berean Study Bible
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Berean Literal Bible
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades not will prevail against it.

New American Standard Bible
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

King James Bible
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Christian Standard Bible
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Contemporary English Version
So I will call you Peter, which means "a rock." On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it.

Good News Translation
And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it.

NET Bible
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

New Heart English Bible
I also tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Also I say to you, that you are Kaypha, and upon this stone I shall build my church, and the gates of Sheol will not withstand it.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You are Peter, and I can guarantee that on this rock I will build my church. And the gates of hell will not overpower it.

New American Standard 1977
“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.

King James 2000 Bible
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

American King James Version
And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

American Standard Version
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

H. Richard Translation:
Jesus did not setup a church.

Richard, you are putting your faith in faith. A church is supposed to nurture ones faith. You have created a false dichotomy between "faith" and "church". One is a community of believers, the other is a virtue. They are not opposed to each other.

***

When a church plots murder it is not a church established by Jesus. You wish to define your version of Faith. I will stick to mine.

You just refuse to accept that my faith in what Jesus did for mankind on the cross is somehow not faith since it is not sanctioned by your church. Hog wash. I will glorify Jesus and His work on the cross while you wish to glorify a church ran by men and want others to follow you. IMO a religious church is a sure way to a very warm place.

The scriptures plainly say that it is our faith that overcomes the world but you wish to say it is your church. I will go with the scripture.

Heb 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

Nothing in these scriptures say anything about your church overcoming the world nor does it say your church equals faith. You place to much of your faith in the ideas of men in your church. Perhaps you should do and independent study on apostasy. Did you know that it started before Paul died? I believe your church was at the center of it killing anyone that placed their faith in Jesus' work on the cross and not faith in your church. That is why you are here. You wish to elevate faith in your church over faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

 

[bbyrd009]

so blind

churches serve God too mjr, even by the right hand i guess
churches produced you right

 

[bbyrd009]

Does the Catholic church provide half of social services in the U.S. ...

 

[H. Richard]

churches serve God too mjr, even by the right hand i guess
churches produced you right

churches serve God too mjr, even by the right hand i guess
churches produced you right

***

Do they really???

2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

***

Do they really???

2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves
NKJV

i don't disagree that they contain those, yes; church is not Church i guess.
i feel the same way you guys do there, ok; but we are told to love our enemies, yes?
who needs you the most, the sick or the well?

 

[mjrhealth]

churches serve God too mjr, even by the right hand i guess
churches produced you right

No Jesus did, He is the author and finisher of our faith, Teh only thing church ever did was show me everything God is not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're grasping at straws. James' judgement/decision resulted in James issuing instructions, not Peter. It's obvious that mere "agreement" is not the issue here. Again, Peter just didn't seem to realize he was the first pope.

That is absolutely FALSE.

The instructions were from ALL the Apostles. It says:
Acts 15:23-28
The APOSTLES AND ELDERS, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
WE have heard that some went out from US without OUR authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So WE all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with OUR dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore WE are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what WE are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

NOWHERE does it says that James sent out instructions on his own.

First, a peculiar commission says nothing regarding preeminence. The other problem you face is the interpretation of the keys. They are mentioned in such close proximity to binding and loosing, that they may be one and the same. I await your argument in this regard.

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

You cannot understand the whole meaning of Matt. 16:19 without including the verses right before it.

Here is is in its entirety:
Matt. 16:17-19
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are YOU, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

No other apostle was told that the Church would be built upon him and then given the keys.
Jesus blessing on Peter was THREEfold:
1. Blessed are YOU Simon Bar Jonah
2. YOU are Kepha and I will build my Church on YOU.
3. I will give YOU the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

The last blessing harkens back to Isaiah 22:22 when God gave similar authority to Eliakim regarding the House of Israel.

Peter had authority UNLIKE the rest.[/QUOTE]