Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures
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Ernest...been busy..anyway
About the apostates you see in 2 Peter 2:1: so, you don’t think these folks were really imposters, unbelievers and never saved. A saved person or believer shall not deny the atoning works of Jesus on cross by the term ‘bought’ used in 2 Peter 2:1. I believe these false teachers we not saved.
I’m also not a Calvinist if you want to know. I just so happen apparently to have SOME similar ideas as they do regarding salvation. I don’t even know what all they believe in, except the believe salvation if given by God and is irreversible.
Bless you,
APAK
As noted in post 36, I prefer to just embrace God's statements - as Law and Gospel - and leave it there. That means I don't hold to OSAS.
Just speculating (and I hate to do that, lol).... PERHAPS there is a comparison to physical life???? No one gives life to self or earns life for self - physical life is always a pure GIFT from God. I affirm that Jesus is the Savior (100%)... and that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of spiritual life (100%) so our life is not our own doing. And being alive, we are to live a life that is according to God's heart and will and glorifying to Him. But we can wreck our life, we can even terminate it. Looking at the Law verses, it at least SEEMS AS THOUGH we are able to terminate our spiritual life (even if not create it), although I'd not say that dogmatically and I'm not sure if that actually ever happens (maybe I'm speaking theoretically). Well.... I prefer to just leave it as God does. Which is what I TRIED to do in post 36.
Besides "mixing" Law and Gospel, my concern is that it seems OSAS is a very terrorizing idea that means faith assures nothing. I can expand on that if you request; from a pastoral standpoint, it seems very disturbing.
THANK YOU! I hope you are correct!
Thank you for the conversation and your insights!
- Josiah
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Josiah, yes can you expand on the statement where you say:
Besides "mixing" Law and Gospel, my concern is that it seems OSAS is a very terrorizing idea that means faith assures nothing. I can expand on that if you request; from a pastoral standpoint, it seems very disturbing."
...especially where suggest that faith is ineffective for salvation. Who's faith are speaking about?
(Eph 2:7) His intention was that throughout the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
(Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them. Unity Created Between Jew and Gentile (ALL NEV)
thanks
APAK
Appreciate your input ETB! My present understanding is that though God paid the price (purchased) to redeem mankind, which has been provided for all, it does not design the intention that all receive it (most will not Mat 7:13, 14). Thus everyone belongs to God, but He has possession only of those who choose to be His.
IMO, there are many horrible pastoral consequences of this opinion of some Reformed brothers....
The Gospel of Justification (narrow) is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Yes, faith is a part of this whole, but it is the OBJECT of that faith that matters, not the quanity or quality of it. There is only ONE appropriate question: "In WHOM do I rely?" "To WHOM is my faith directed?" CHRIST is the Savior (not my faith), so the issue is the sufficiency of CHRIST, not faith.
IMO, what these later-day "Calvinists" that invented OSAS did was change the Gospel, and like Catholics, changed the focus from Christ to self (although BOTH stress that what is in us comes solely from God). For Catholics, it became the quantity and QUALITY of our lives, for these latter-day Calvinists, the quantity and QUALITY of our faith. Both create a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity.
An illustration:
Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere (sufficient quality and quantity). "I believe it all!" Then Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"
Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:
1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he (unintentionally) lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.
2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.
3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE'S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.
So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.
Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.
Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -
1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.
2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.
3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.
Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.
Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:
1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.
2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.
3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.
Bottom line:
So, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever has been a Christian, saved or heaven-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writting all those anti-Christian books, not now. NO ONE can know if they are justified and "heaven-bound" because the POINT is the necessity for TRUE faith (point being the quality and quantity of faith - not the object of faith) but must live in the horror of uncertainty. OSAS, a "logical creation" probably MEANT to be comforting actually mandates terror and uncertainty.
Thank you for the conversation!
- Josiah
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
No, they had been "bought" (past tense) redeemed by the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19) so there is no way they would have been imposters. Since they had been 'bought' by Jesus then that would make Jesus their "Master". Jesus is not the Master of lost, unforgiven reprobates.
Other details given in the context showing they were once in a saved state:
2 Pet 2:15 "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;"
--logically they could not forsake the right way and go astray if they were never in the right way and always astray
--Balaam is mentioned for he had been a true prophet of God (Numbers 22:8) but later prophesied false things. Peter is showing, as some might say, that history repeats itself. There were false teachers among God's chosen in OT times as there will be false teachers among God's chosen in NT times.
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
IF they were always lost, never saved, then they would have never escaped the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of Christ nor could it be possible for them to be AGAIN entangled if they were always entangled.
2 Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." They could not turn from the way of righteousness if they were never in the way of righteousness.
2 Peter 2:22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
These false teachers are depicted as having once 'vomited' out the sin and corruption in them, but now have returned to consume that sin and corruption back into themselves. They had once been "bought" redeemed by the blood of Christ having their washed away by the blood of Christ but are now, as the sow, have returned to wallowing in the mire of sin.
These verses would not make much sense if they had always been lost, never saved.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Yes, Christ has made salvation possible for all men, but the only men that will be saved are the ones that have been bought as those in 2 Pet 2. They had been bought (past tense) so they had came into the possession of the One who bought them, Jesus their Master, Owner.
@kepha31 : sharing more commentary on your verses in Rev Chapters 2 and 3....for you and anyone interested in reading
Rev 2:4-5, 3: 4-5, 11 are verses not about the loss of salvation for a believer let alone even a congregation.
I may aswell do a brief commentary on the letters to the 7 churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) to clearly show that there is nothing in them suggesting a believer can lose his/her salvation. These letters represent the rich truth in how Jesus deals with congregations, yesterday, today and tomorrow until his return. We need to heed these letters and what they really mean for today and tomorrow.
In Rev 1:16-20 - Jesus says he has all the believing leaders (symbolized by stars) of all (symbolized by seven) congregations (candlesticks) in the world, then, today and tomorrow, in his control. He is amongst them and knows how faithful they shine or faithless and dark they are becoming. He is there to praise those with growing spiritual health and to warn those that they have poor or decaying spiritual health, and the consequences.
The 7 letters have the same 3-step structure:
1. To the leader(s) of this congregation that also applied to all congregations, anywhere in the world
2. Praises and condemnations to the leader(s) of this congregation and to other congregations that has the same spiritual heath issues or accolades.
3. A personal address by the spirit of God to each believer (overcomers) in all congregations, anywhere in the world, (a reaffirmation that a believer shall always be in ‘good’ hands, in Jesus)
Now what does it mean when a candlestick is removed or moved out its place by Jesus as it says here in scripture? It is a candlestick or congregation that needs attention and even repentance. Jesus is saying if these leader(s) of this congregation or other congregations with the same spiritual personality, do not turn around or repent they will not be considered one of his congregations anymore. He will leave them, for good! They are considered spiritually ‘dead’ congregations.
Now of course Jesus won’t stop them from preaching false truth, he just won’t work with them anymore. He removes them from his keeping. In this case true believers will scatter or eventually leave these congregations anyway. The spirit within them will convince them to get out. These ‘dead’ congregations will lose membership and/ or be back-filled with unbelievers.
How many ‘dead’ congregations do we see today in the world? In my view many of the officially recognized denomination-labelled congregations are ‘dead;’ Jesus left them. Whether they were born 1900, 1800, 1700 1000, 500 or 10 years ago, it makes no difference. They are not cared for by Jesus anymore. This or these congregations could be 1900 years old ‘dead’ congregations that still preaches its false truth today. I wonder if we see any ’old dead’ congregations today, practicing their same false truth? They have long departed from the truth, with the absence of Jesus’ love and care in their lives.
Jesus then appeals to the believers in all congregations in the world for them to ‘get out,’ of the especially the ‘dead’ congregations, in his words and address at the end of each letter. And that is what is happening a lot today. Believers are leaving in droves, and back-filled with many more unbelievers or they go bankrupt.
Jesus promised and reminds the believer, the save one, the overcomer to know what awaits him/her in the future. These believers are not wedded or loyal to any ‘dead’ congregation. They are wedded to Jesus, independent of the congregation they have assembly.
Again, a believer is not in jeopardy of losing his salvation according to this area of scripture.
Bless you, and peace to you; to all that love Jesus
APAK
Rev 2:4-5, 3: 4-5, 11 are verses not about the loss of salvation for a believer let alone even a congregation.
I may aswell do a brief commentary on the letters to the 7 churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) to clearly show that there is nothing in them suggesting a believer can lose his/her salvation. These letters represent the rich truth in how Jesus deals with congregations, yesterday, today and tomorrow until his return. We need to heed these letters and what they really mean for today and tomorrow.
In Rev 1:16-20 - Jesus says he has all the believing leaders (symbolized by stars) of all (symbolized by seven) congregations (candlesticks) in the world, then, today and tomorrow, in his control. He is amongst them and knows how faithful they shine or faithless and dark they are becoming. He is there to praise those with growing spiritual health and to warn those that they have poor or decaying spiritual health, and the consequences.
The 7 letters have the same 3-step structure:
1. To the leader(s) of this congregation that also applied to all congregations, anywhere in the world
2. Praises and condemnations to the leader(s) of this congregation and to other congregations that has the same spiritual heath issues or accolades.
3. A personal address by the spirit of God to each believer (overcomers) in all congregations, anywhere in the world, (a reaffirmation that a believer shall always be in ‘good’ hands, in Jesus)
Now what does it mean when a candlestick is removed or moved out its place by Jesus as it says here in scripture? It is a candlestick or congregation that needs attention and even repentance. Jesus is saying if these leader(s) of this congregation or other congregations with the same spiritual personality, do not turn around or repent they will not be considered one of his congregations anymore. He will leave them, for good! They are considered spiritually ‘dead’ congregations.
Now of course Jesus won’t stop them from preaching false truth, he just won’t work with them anymore. He removes them from his keeping. In this case true believers will scatter or eventually leave these congregations anyway. The spirit within them will convince them to get out. These ‘dead’ congregations will lose membership and/ or be back-filled with unbelievers.
How many ‘dead’ congregations do we see today in the world? In my view many of the officially recognized denomination-labelled congregations are ‘dead;’ Jesus left them. Whether they were born 1900, 1800, 1700 1000, 500 or 10 years ago, it makes no difference. They are not cared for by Jesus anymore. This or these congregations could be 1900 years old ‘dead’ congregations that still preaches its false truth today. I wonder if we see any ’old dead’ congregations today, practicing their same false truth? They have long departed from the truth, with the absence of Jesus’ love and care in their lives.
Jesus then appeals to the believers in all congregations in the world for them to ‘get out,’ of the especially the ‘dead’ congregations, in his words and address at the end of each letter. And that is what is happening a lot today. Believers are leaving in droves, and back-filled with many more unbelievers or they go bankrupt.
Jesus promised and reminds the believer, the save one, the overcomer to know what awaits him/her in the future. These believers are not wedded or loyal to any ‘dead’ congregation. They are wedded to Jesus, independent of the congregation they have assembly.
Again, a believer is not in jeopardy of losing his salvation according to this area of scripture.
Bless you, and peace to you; to all that love Jesus
APAK
Ernest: I'm confused by your writing here and even your logic.
I will just comment on the top reply you made back to me...
(2Pe 2:1) False Teachers But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.(NEV)
Ernest can you see that these were false teachers in 2 Peter, that rejected or denied Jesus and his blood he shed for them (they reject that he bought them)!! A believer believes this at the heart of his conversion process, and does not reject this vital point for salvation.
Hoe can a believer deny what he/she represents and believes in. I cannot make it any clearer Ernest.
Bless you,
APAK
@Josiah ...a mouth full
as you said "....For Catholics, it became the quantity and QUALITY of our lives, for these latter-day Calvinists, the quantity and QUALITY of our faith. Both create a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity..."
I agree with the entire two paragraphs you have written above….that means I agree with your assessment or stance of the Catholics and Calvinists and their stamps on living and faith that is yes, ‘terrorizing’ for the mind and heart indeed. Just remember I believe in OSAS that most probably is not for all the same reasons as the Calvinists.
as you said "Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere (sufficient quality and quantity). "I believe it all!" Then Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that""
I really do not agree with this scenario you have presents especially because you suggest that Bob is genuinely saved using HIS OWN FAITH. If Calvinists believe or agree with this using as you say quality and even quantity of his own faith it is INEFFECTIVE for salvation. Under the law he most probably was saved, not under grace. Under grace, the saving faith in quality and quantity is GIVEN or imputed to the believing candidate upon the point of receiving the spirit of God and regeneration. GOD GIVES HIM THIS FAITH beyond his capabilities.
(Eph 2:7) His intention was that throughout the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
(Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them. Unity Created Between Jew and Gentile
Bless you,
APAK
as you said "....For Catholics, it became the quantity and QUALITY of our lives, for these latter-day Calvinists, the quantity and QUALITY of our faith. Both create a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity..."
I agree with the entire two paragraphs you have written above….that means I agree with your assessment or stance of the Catholics and Calvinists and their stamps on living and faith that is yes, ‘terrorizing’ for the mind and heart indeed. Just remember I believe in OSAS that most probably is not for all the same reasons as the Calvinists.
as you said "Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere (sufficient quality and quantity). "I believe it all!" Then Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that""
I really do not agree with this scenario you have presents especially because you suggest that Bob is genuinely saved using HIS OWN FAITH. If Calvinists believe or agree with this using as you say quality and even quantity of his own faith it is INEFFECTIVE for salvation. Under the law he most probably was saved, not under grace. Under grace, the saving faith in quality and quantity is GIVEN or imputed to the believing candidate upon the point of receiving the spirit of God and regeneration. GOD GIVES HIM THIS FAITH beyond his capabilities.
(Eph 2:7) His intention was that throughout the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
(Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them. Unity Created Between Jew and Gentile
Bless you,
APAK
In reference to post # 46.
No, I didn't say anything about whether Bob is justified or not. I simply pointed out that from the perspective of OSAS, it is impossible to ever know if anyone (including self) is justified.
And I disagreed with the OSAS perspective that ignores the OBJECT of faith and makes instead the issue the QUANTITY and QUALITY of personal faith, thus the constant point of whether the person has "TRUE" faith or not.
It's just one of the 'problems' with this "logical construction." As I noted earlier, I think it best to affirm all God says on this - BOTH Law an Gospel - and leave it where God does, being careful to apply both appropriately.
... and also you (my Catholic past comes out, now and then... LOL)
Thanks for the conversation!
- Josiah
Since 2 Peter 2 speaks about false prophets and false teachers who were denying Christ, it does not refute the eternal security of the believer who has fully trusted in Christ as Lord and Savior.
The whole tenor of this chapter is about men who are deliberately perverting the Gospel. They could not possibly have been saved to begin with hence Peter says whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not (v. 3).
In other words, their judgment and damnation is certain. These are not word applied to believers.
You are a swell Catholic Josiah and I'm not trying to highlight this label whether you want me to or not. I just have not spoken to many that seem this level-headed and confident, courteous..
Yes, as you said and I agree, it is difficult for me or anyone else to know exactly if another person is 'justified.' As justification and righteousness are keys to salvation, I must then therefore include who is also saved with God's saving (true) faith. Over time I can get a good picture though.
On this site for example, I have gotten a real good non-scientific and some spiritual measure already. Via posts, responses, style and tone in writing, agreements or disagreements with trigger words or subtle key words that a person reacts to or not, in a positive way or not. I would say I have pegged at least a dozen people as 'saved' that I have observed, with > 90 percent certainty. There are another dozen with at least 60 percent certainty, and about another few dozen with less that 30 percent certainty. It's all based my own formula with a 'feel good effect' at times, and not necessarily true.
It is about da spirit inside you.....either you have it or you don't. If one cannot feel it or sense it, at times physically and mentally you ain't got it. There is usually a change in lifestyle from the point of the new life or initial conversion point where sin during this on-going perfecting state is viewed like an ex-smoker that picks up a cigarette after a few years and nearly chokes in disgust. The sensitivity level keeps going up over time and ways to avoid the scene altogether is a lifestyle.
Well thus far I believe I've repelled all the verses (I've had to time to respond to anyway)that suggested that OSAS is false, on this thread and others. I have not finished yet. It takes time to write it all out.
Josiah, happy hunting and I hope and say, God keep you with sound mind and peace.
APAK
@kepha31 ..more commentary on your verse Rev 13:10....only two more areas to go.....
(Rev 13:10) If anyone is for captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (NEV)
This verse of Rev 13:10 says nothing about a saint’s or believer’s potential loss of salvation.
Let me explain. Under these extremes conditions cited, it is hoped that the saints would be spiritual mature, and possess sufficient faith gained by their walk in the spirit. Saints come in different levels of faith (power) or spiritual maturity. It can be called their level of perfection or degree of conversion, if you will.
There is no loss of salvation or it is not their fault in the least if a saint is spiritually immature and cannot withstand tribulation. There is no condemnation. It is recommended they do become mature. God forbid they must be perfect or nearly perfect in this life time to endure any tribulation as Jesus could!
Bless all,
APAK
(Rev 13:10) If anyone is for captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (NEV)
This verse of Rev 13:10 says nothing about a saint’s or believer’s potential loss of salvation.
Let me explain. Under these extremes conditions cited, it is hoped that the saints would be spiritual mature, and possess sufficient faith gained by their walk in the spirit. Saints come in different levels of faith (power) or spiritual maturity. It can be called their level of perfection or degree of conversion, if you will.
There is no loss of salvation or it is not their fault in the least if a saint is spiritually immature and cannot withstand tribulation. There is no condemnation. It is recommended they do become mature. God forbid they must be perfect or nearly perfect in this life time to endure any tribulation as Jesus could!
Bless all,
APAK
Yes as the Bible says oh ye of little faith, that is the problem, you own faith can not cut it.
But the Faith that can move mountains is the Faith we need and that's God given faith that comes when one is truly born again.
Little faith is better than non, but it's a start, firstly one can not eat solid food anyway to start off with.
People at Church would say to me in the 70's Just believe and that's all you need and I was like, I do have faith but I do am not convinced with blind faith.
I needed to truly be convinced, now if I did not have such a conviction I would of been more easily lead away, like the parable of the sower explains and you need roots to grow and one has to be mindful of the weeds that will only work to strangle your growth in the Holy Spirit.
I was non to impressed with what my Lutheran priest would come up with when I asked for in depth answers, he just did his best to avoid and just toss by rote at me and once he started that crap I could no stop him, I would say but but but to it all as he went along with that all and then just run away.
I have to have conviction to believe in anything, so I know it has foundations, or it's like some what like the 3 little pigs and making a house that the big bad wolf can not enter, so that cunning bugger can not mislead me to follow down his path, alarm bells go off directly because Jesus is beside me always.
When I look back at all the kids who went to church back then with me, he failed them all, they do not believe now and if they do believe it's just a religious conviction and Jesus is not in their life at all.
So the wolf in sheep's clothing can be spotted for what he is, just mans works madness and he looks just like us and all but his faith is the faith in man and history has proven that is some what like a silly little brat child at the wheel of a car, steering in ignorance blissfully on a high self indulged trip. he has no licence to be on the road in the first place and no insurance worth a cracker and is heading down the path to oblivion.
Reggie: well said. Your second statement sums it up for me. We as saved folks have the potential to gain faith nearing that of Jesus, like Paul most probably came close, as we walk in the spirit as we grow holy spiritual fruit (works).
Your other point about knowing the false teachers. Again a born again and mature mate can discern and know them in time, like smelling them out like vermin and calling them for what they are....
Bless you,
APAK
More rebuttal expositions supporting OSAS; drawn from Kepha31's verses in opposition
(Rev 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (NEV)
Rev 14:12 has a similar answer as Rev 13:10. It is requested that saints endure with their faith they possess, as they are the ones keeping/knowing God’s commands and his will and has the true faith in Jesus Christ. It is recommended they are mature (having firm or stronger faith) saints that can endure longer that a ‘new’ saint under duress. Because some may not endure does not mean they lost faith in Jesus or salvation. They just had insufficient faith to endure. They may have been forced to denounce they belief under the thread of death. Their heart and the spirit of God within them knows their faith and salvation was secure although their own will they relied on, was weak, and can never endure. There is no condemnation for this saint.
Therefore, Paul teaches us to run the race of salvation and not even walk it, so we can gain great faith for endurance when required.
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(Rev 21:7) He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. (NEV)
(Rev 21:8) But for the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur; which is the second death.(NEV)
Need to read this in context and therefore one must read verse 8 as well. Verse 8 says the fearful and unbelieving are NOT ‘overcomers.’ Who is left? The believers are left, and they are the overcomers in verse 7. These are the believers, the conquerors and overcomers who overcame with their initial and continuing faith experience in Jesus’ work especially on the cross. As Jesus overcame from death to everlasting life so did his believers also overcome to eternal life. It has everything to do with true faith not found in natural man, it is found in God alone. He must provide it to the natural man to be transformed!
Stumbling or being imperfect in our lives does not mean we did not overcome. Working for salvation or living as ‘good’ people won’t result in overcoming the 2nd death either.
There is no potential loss of salvation for a believer or overcomer in Rev 21:7.
Bless all,
APAK
(Rev 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (NEV)
Rev 14:12 has a similar answer as Rev 13:10. It is requested that saints endure with their faith they possess, as they are the ones keeping/knowing God’s commands and his will and has the true faith in Jesus Christ. It is recommended they are mature (having firm or stronger faith) saints that can endure longer that a ‘new’ saint under duress. Because some may not endure does not mean they lost faith in Jesus or salvation. They just had insufficient faith to endure. They may have been forced to denounce they belief under the thread of death. Their heart and the spirit of God within them knows their faith and salvation was secure although their own will they relied on, was weak, and can never endure. There is no condemnation for this saint.
Therefore, Paul teaches us to run the race of salvation and not even walk it, so we can gain great faith for endurance when required.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Rev 21:7) He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. (NEV)
(Rev 21:8) But for the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur; which is the second death.(NEV)
Need to read this in context and therefore one must read verse 8 as well. Verse 8 says the fearful and unbelieving are NOT ‘overcomers.’ Who is left? The believers are left, and they are the overcomers in verse 7. These are the believers, the conquerors and overcomers who overcame with their initial and continuing faith experience in Jesus’ work especially on the cross. As Jesus overcame from death to everlasting life so did his believers also overcome to eternal life. It has everything to do with true faith not found in natural man, it is found in God alone. He must provide it to the natural man to be transformed!
Stumbling or being imperfect in our lives does not mean we did not overcome. Working for salvation or living as ‘good’ people won’t result in overcoming the 2nd death either.
There is no potential loss of salvation for a believer or overcomer in Rev 21:7.
Bless all,
APAK
I'm Lutheran. I was raised Catholic.
I affirm that Justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. The Sola Gratia and Solus Christus aspects are universal and ALWAYS the case, the Sola Fide aspect is not. But where it is present, there IS Justification. So, to ME, it's very simple. Where there is faith IN CHRIST (the object being the point, not the quality or quantity of the faith) - there is Justification. Even when such faith is combined with doubts ("Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief").
Blessings! And thanks for the conversation...
- Josiah
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Last commentary, at this point, rebutting Kepha31's verse that do not support anti-OSAS
(Rev 22:18) I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, that if anyone shall add to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
(Rev 22:19) And if anyone shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written of in this book.(All NEV)
(Deu 4:2) You must not add to the word which I command you, neither must you take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you. (NEV)
As Deuteronomy 4:2 says, the ones that keep the commands of God (and faith in Jesus) are true believers. They do not add or delete to existing words of God.
Rev 22-18-19 is speaking of those that add to the words of God not just in this Book, in the entire Bible. These added or deleted words are not the mere words in verses that can produce modifications in meanings of the existing portions of scripture. Everyone can be guilty, with good intentions of neglecting a word or adding a word that was not there before, to mean something differently or more precisely in interpretation for improvement purposes. Many translators have committed this crime. This is not what it means.
It is speaking of much more: adding new doctrine, teachings, books, other literature created by men that add or delete to the Bible in a major way. They produce a false meaning or message of God’s word.
The corrupt Pharisees committed this infraction. And several denominational congregations have mimicked them and added much literature to supersede or improve, as they think, scripture. These are the ones that are the unbelieves and will suffer in the 2nd death. These potentially could have had their share of the tree of life. Really though it was impossible, because these modifiers and manipulators of scripture were all unbelievers. Now its not speaking to those that somehow accepted the modifiers words as scripture or beyond it, later on – the lay-folks. It is upon the leaders and creators’ heads that these verses apply.
Bless all,
APAK
(Rev 22:18) I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, that if anyone shall add to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
(Rev 22:19) And if anyone shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written of in this book.(All NEV)
(Deu 4:2) You must not add to the word which I command you, neither must you take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you. (NEV)
As Deuteronomy 4:2 says, the ones that keep the commands of God (and faith in Jesus) are true believers. They do not add or delete to existing words of God.
Rev 22-18-19 is speaking of those that add to the words of God not just in this Book, in the entire Bible. These added or deleted words are not the mere words in verses that can produce modifications in meanings of the existing portions of scripture. Everyone can be guilty, with good intentions of neglecting a word or adding a word that was not there before, to mean something differently or more precisely in interpretation for improvement purposes. Many translators have committed this crime. This is not what it means.
It is speaking of much more: adding new doctrine, teachings, books, other literature created by men that add or delete to the Bible in a major way. They produce a false meaning or message of God’s word.
The corrupt Pharisees committed this infraction. And several denominational congregations have mimicked them and added much literature to supersede or improve, as they think, scripture. These are the ones that are the unbelieves and will suffer in the 2nd death. These potentially could have had their share of the tree of life. Really though it was impossible, because these modifiers and manipulators of scripture were all unbelievers. Now its not speaking to those that somehow accepted the modifiers words as scripture or beyond it, later on – the lay-folks. It is upon the leaders and creators’ heads that these verses apply.
Bless all,
APAK
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