Outer Darkness

[bbyrd009]

As for the teaching of the church down through the ages, I'm not wild about the idea of eternal torment either, but I believe He is "the Only Wise God," and therefore fully trust that there are good reasons for everything He does and will do. His ways are higher than our ways, so I take Him at His word rather than redefining words like "torment" or phrases like "gnashing of teeth" to mean nothing simply because I don't like their implications.

imo the biggest lie there is that Hegelian dialecticism has been introduced, and the truth of one in torment right next to another in paradise, both existing in the exact same conditions, is occluded; as the story of Meshack et al illustrates?

so then, "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" are brought to nothing, not by redefining them, but by recognizing the context from which they manifest imo. Broadly speaking, Hegelians weep and gnash their teeth. Determinists, bent on winning--which is why they became determinists in the first place--will always lose. Paul's "race" is being run exactly as he cautioned against iow. Those perceived as the "winners" are also the most miserable, and the most depressed; conquerors get conquered in their turn.

We get to imagine going to some place that does not exist called "heaven" by inventing another place that does not exist called "hell," and then pretending that we got all this from the Bible, which is written dialectically (only Eastern dialecticism this time, not "satan's dialectic") to hide wisdom from the wise. Of course there are many, many refutes in Scripture to this pov also, but they are ignored or reasoned away.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is very real imo; the reasons for the weeping are hidden, as hidden as if one were to ask a latent suicide why they want to off themselves, expecting a logical answer. As obvious as asking a teenage girl why they are in hell
imo

perspective is a freewill choice iow, regardless of what anyone maybe insists is the truth; in fact, revealed by insisting on some truth, to those who can see, right. Insisting on some truth actually reveals the truth iow, which is a different truth, and as near as i can tell this is inviolable, particularly in Scripture; or else we would have uncontested doctrine from It, right? Can you name even one?

 

[Stranger]

That is a popular misconception. Luke also lists the sermon on the mount and he uses the term "kingdom of God." Perhaps the terminology is different but it is the same thing. Don't confuse terminology with the subject. There is enough confusion on this already.


I think you are downplaying the spiritual nature of the kingdom....where all people are the same to God.

The terminology is different because the emphasis is different.

You say 'Don't confuse terminology with the subject'. What does that mean?

I didn't say the kingdom was not 'spiritual'. Of course it is. But it is not just 'spiritual'. Don't fall into the trap of Platonic interpretation of the Bible, which is 'all that is material is evil' and all that is 'spiritual is good'. Both statements are lies.

Stranger

 

[Episkopos]

The terminology is different because the emphasis is different.

You say 'Don't confuse terminology with the subject'. What does that mean?

I didn't say the kingdom was not 'spiritual'. Of course it is. But it is not just 'spiritual'. Don't fall into the trap of Platonic interpretation of the Bible, which is 'all that is material is evil' and all that is 'spiritual is good'. Both statements are lies.

Stranger

You were trying to make a distinction between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. A lot of people get tripped up on terminology....like the gospel of grace. It is all about God's kingdom...which IS in the Spirit. Very few have seen into this realm. That is why there is so much confusion. All the material things are physical, not evil. But the kingdom is invisible...and eternal.

 

[Hidden In Him]

so then, "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" are brought to nothing, not by redefining them, but by recognizing the context from which they manifest imo. Broadly speaking, Hegelians weep and gnash their teeth. Determinists, bent on winning--which is why they became determinists in the first place--will always lose. Paul's "race" is being run exactly as he cautioned against iow. Those perceived as the "winners" are also the most miserable, and the most depressed; conquerors get conquered in their turn.

We get to imagine going to some place that does not exist called "heaven" by inventing another place that does not exist called "hell," and then pretending that we got all this from the Bible, which is written dialectically (only Eastern dialecticism this time, not "satan's dialectic") to hide wisdom from the wise. Of course there are many, many refutes in Scripture to this pov also, but they are ignored or reasoned away.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is very real imo; the reasons for the weeping are hidden, as hidden as if one were to ask a latent suicide why they want to off themselves, expecting a logical answer. As obvious as asking a teenage girl why they are in hell
imo

perspective is a freewill choice iow, regardless of what anyone maybe insists is the truth; in fact, revealed by insisting on some truth, to those who can see, right. Insisting on some truth actually reveals the truth iow, which is a different truth, and as near as i can tell this is inviolable, particularly in Scripture; or else we would have uncontested doctrine from It, right? Can you name even one?

Byrd, I'm going to find one more polite way to say this: I'm not widely interested in discussing an issue like this from a philosophical perspective. Hell is not a philosophical concept to me but a reality, and people are dying and going there every day by the tens of thousands. If you were approaching the topic of a man having gasoline poured over his body and being set on fire and burning to death as a "philosophical discussion" about winners and losers, I would consider the conversation no different, and be more interested in talking about why it happened and how to keep it from happening again.

You will forgive me if I avoid such discussions. They hold little value for me.

 

[Taken]

We get to imagine going to some place that does not exist called "heaven" by inventing another place that does not exist called "hell," and then pretending that we got all this from the Bible,

Which we did get such "KNOWLEDGE, from Scripture."

which is written dialectically (only Eastern dialecticism this time, not "satan's dialectic") to hide wisdom from the wise. Of course there are many, many refutes in Scripture to this pov also, but they are ignored or reasoned away.

The KNOWLEDGE revealed IS there IS are Heavens.
Thee LOWER Heaven, mankind can see, some of it, we call our outer atmosphere.
Thee 2nd Heaven, created as the estate of Holy Angels.
Thee High Heaven, Gods Estate.

Thee Lower and 2nd LIKE mankinds Estate (Earth) has had Corruption enter into it.
Corruption in the 1st Lower and 2nd Heaven Corrupted by Fallen Angels.
Corruption on the Earth by mankind AND Fallen Angels.

Gods Estate, ie the Third and Highest Heaven remains PURE.
The other two Heavens SHALL, LIKE the Earth shall be restored anew.

Heaven was not created FOR mankinds ESTATE.
Earth was not created FOR Angels ESTATE.

It is WHEN, WHY, HOW, and WHAT, has ACCESS to places OTHER than THEIR CREATED estate.

An Angel, who has fallen FROM Gods Grace, is CAST OUT of their ESTATE, downward, to Earth.

They become A constant thorne and agitation and influence TO MEN ON Earth, trying to merrily live WITHOUT agitation.

HELL is another PLACE,"IN" the Earth, Prepared AS a TEMPORARY "abode" FOR
Angels, that have FALLEN FROM Gods GRACE and MANKIND who never ACCEPTS Gods GRACE.

Fallen Angels Shall eventually BE CAST DOWNWARD, to Hell for 1,000 years....

And men WHO HAVE accepted Gods GRACE, shall reside ON EARTH, WITH the Lord IN His Kingdom....WHILE a remnant of MORTALS repopulate the EARTH, VOID of the influence of Fallen Angels. SOME of those generational mortals WILL accept Gods GRACE, some will not.

After the 1,000 years, the FINAL separation will commence.

ALL mortals rejecting Gods GRACE and ALL fallen angels shall be cast down to Hell permantntly.

The Angels, being Spirits, shall NEVER DIE, but rather Shall be forever purified IN an eternal fire.

The "PEOPLE" who NEVER accepted Gods GRACE, NEVER have their spirit quickened to an eternal Living spirit.

They participate in Judgement, have LIFE departed out of their Living soul, and thei Vessels, (body and soul) destroyed, by Gods Consuming FIRE. The Departed life returns to God.
Their body and soul, IS thus called cast OUT, cast INTO "UTTER" Darkness Forever.

There IS NO LIGHT WHATSOEVER, IN THEM, WITH THEM, REFLECTING ON THEM, for evermore. Completely VOID of God, His LIGHT, His GRACE, His LIFE, His THOUGHTS,
(And BTW, remembered no more by men in Grace who had once known them).

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is very real imo;

Agree. It is a period of time that lapses...
From birth in darkness, until a man hears and learns about God.
A period of time lapses between hearing about God and choosing to accept His Grace.
A period of time between bodily death and destruction of the BODY and the living soul.
A period of time between denying God and the final punishment.

Every one of those intermittent time frames, a man who Accepts Gods Grace, experiences JOY, Blessings, Peaces.

And every one of those intermittent time frames a man experiences heartache, hardships, woes.

When such men can be seen NOW in their flesh, weeping, sobbing, sad, beating their chest, pulling their hair.....they are in DISPAIR / torments....

It is the same thing, revealed as gnashing their teeth and weeping....When men shalll REALIZE they MESSED UP, and there is NO MORE an opportunity for them to receive GRACE.....THEY ARE DOOMED FOR COMPLETE and UTTER Darkness Forever.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Stranger]

You were trying to make a distinction between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. A lot of people get tripped up on terminology....like the gospel of grace. It is all about God's kingdom...which IS in the Spirit. Very few have seen into this realm. That is why there is so much confusion. All the material things are physical, not evil. But the kingdom is invisible...and eternal.

But it is a distinction I have not made. It is a distinction that God makes in the Scripture. The confusion lies with people like you who want to take different terms and make them mean all the same thing. Just put it all in one big bag, and shake it up and say it is all about God loves you.

The Kingdom will be material and physical also. That doesn't take away from it's spiritual aspect. Is Jesus Christ 'spiritual'? Is He 'physical'? As I said, don't buy into the Platonic belief concerning the Kingdom.

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

But the kingdom is invisible...and eternal.

Invisible only until the second coming of Christ to earth.

 

[Jay Ross]

Invisible only until the second coming of Christ to earth.

Yep, you are right about this but it is still very much going to happen in our distant future, around 1050 or so year hence.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hell is not a philosophical concept to me but a reality, and people are dying and going there every day by the tens of thousands.

man, i feel bad for you, not sure what to even say here. That is a nasty trap you are in, and i can see how hell might be a reality for you right now. But no one is dying and going to hell, ok, and you are not dying and going to any heaven either. With all due respect. Now you can cross examine me, or i will cross examine you, or you can ignore this and keep making statements as if you know, but what you cannot do is back any of that up with Scripture.

now we can either do the thing where you ask a bunch of questions and i reply to each one and then the subject gets changed, or i ask a bunch of questions that you will not answer or usually even address, or as you have already inferred you will do you can claim the high ground or play at being offended or even get some final, determinist word in before you leave this convo, leaving being the important part there. Or if you can come up with a choice that isn't covered by them 3, bam do that

And just so you know i won't be offended at any path you choose ok, you can even call me antichrist on the way out the door if you like. But what you cannot do is back any of that up with Scripture, and i mean you do not have a single verse to lean on except broken reeds, HIH. Wadr "i don't normally do this, but" is pretty weak bro. The furnace is waiting, ok, now or later, i don't care. Have a nice Memorial Day

 

[bbyrd009]

Which we did get such "KNOWLEDGE, from Scripture."

yet you neglected to post the Quote, sorry

The KNOWLEDGE revealed IS there IS are Heavens.

never said heaven was not real, heaven is very real, and so is Tartarus i guess, despite really being a Greek myth first

ALL mortals rejecting Gods GRACE and ALL fallen angels shall be cast down to Hell permantntly.

now alla sudden the "damned souls" which you cannot find anywhere are going to the same place as fallen angels, which concept you cannot find anywhere either, yet i am expected to now wade through a sermon on these i guess?

which i guess will just invite inferences that i didn't mean, pls take that at face value ok, and even keep preaching if you want

Bible Search: damned souls
Bible Search: doomed souls
Bible Search: cursed souls

 

[Hidden In Him]

man, i feel bad for you, not sure what to even say here. That is a nasty trap you are in, and i can see how hell might be a reality for you right now.

LoL. I think you may be misreading me. I'm not going there, so it's not as if I'm particularly worried about myself. Got a chuckle out of this first line. You make it sound like believing scripture is a torment unto itself, LoL!

or you can ignore this

Ok.

you can even call me antichrist on the way out the door if you like.

LoL! I'm getting some good laughs out of this post!

But what you cannot do is back any of that up with Scripture, and i mean you do not have a single verse to lean on except broken reeds, HIH.

The scriptures are fairly plain, as are Christian traditions, as are those things being revealed to the end-time church through modern visions and dreams, and they all agree. Not much point in discussing it, I'm afraid. You and I are far too set in our beliefs. But it doesn't bother me, so not to worry about there being any strife. :)

Have a nice Memorial Day

You too. Thanks for the laughs. It was fun!

 

[Taken]

yet you neglected to post the Quote, sorry

Pss 19:1,2

never said heaven was not real, heaven is very real, and so is Tartarus i guess, despite really being a Greek myth first
now alla sudden the "damned souls" which you cannot find anywhere are going to the same place as fallen angels, which concept you cannot find anywhere either, yet i am expected to now wade through a sermon i guess, no offense. Pls lose the soapbox and come again wadr

Knowledge is mentioned some 200+ times in Scripture.

Write, books, tell your children, tell others in the world, is a common teaching throughout scripture, concerning Gods knowledge He has given mankind.

Didn't realize that a BASIC concept needed to be quoted.

Greek metrology...
First? Before what...seems you are indicating Before Gods Word about Hell?

If that be the case I disagree.

Can't find damned souls going to the same place as fallen angels?
What "place" do you refer to?

Because I believe the Lord created WorldS...
And within each World there are "places" depicted as "levels"...ie high TO low...

And that angels have been ;
In Heaven, on Earth and in hell,
And that man has been on Earth, in Heaven and in hell.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Triumph1300]

But no one is dying and going to hell, ok, and you are not dying and going to any heaven either.

 

[Enoch111]

But no one is dying and going to hell, ok, and you are not dying and going to any heaven either.

More delusion from bbyrd009. Why don't you really study this subject properly. If there was neither Heaven nor Hell there would have been no need for the Cross. You could join the Buddhists and hope for the best.

 

[Taken]

Out of context.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Hidden In Him said: Hell is not a philosophical concept to me but a reality, and people are dying and going there every day by the tens of thousands.

According to the World Health Organization, 56 million people die each year, which is an average of about 153,424 people each day. The exact number of people who die each day, however, fluctuates.

Are they all going to Hell?

According to the scriptures they are this regardless of whether they were good or bad.

Of course understand we refer to hell as it is spoken of in the scriptures, as sheol, the grave, the pit or tomb, the hidden or concealed place, not the hell of eternal torment as taught by the creeds of men. All mankind have gone down into sheol to await the resurrection.

The only exception (now) to this rule pertains to those who have fully consecrated themselves to the Lord, who have been fully justified from all things, these and these alone will not have need to sleep in death, in the grave as do the rest of the world, but instead if found worthy, having made their calling and election sure will at the moment of death, in the “twinkling of an eye” pass beyond the vail death into the presence of the Lord.

 

[bbyrd009]

loved it, alla way down to the Death More Abundantly part :)
get the twinkle today imo, today is always the day,
...for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place--until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts.

The KNOWLEDGE revealed IS there IS are Heavens.

sorry, look what i really mean to say here is that you have tagged me, but you are not addressing the tag at all, at this point; if you trackback and read, i'm sure you will see my point. the first one, the refute, i have already addressed and we can proceed from your reply, but this one, i feel like we are not even having a convo anymore wadr

 

[Harvest 1874]

The scriptures are fairly plain, as are Christian traditions, as are those things being revealed to the end-time church through modern visions and dreams, and they all agree. Not much point in discussing it, I'm afraid. You and I are far too set in our beliefs. But it doesn't bother me, so not to worry about there being any strife. :)

No, they do not all agree, nor have we need for the traditions of men nor for their dreams and visions on this particular subject as we have the Word of God on the matter, and that is sufficient enough for us.

"He that hath a dream [an imagination], let him tell a dream (if he has nothing better to tell); but he that hath MY WORD, let him speak My Word FAITHFULLY." Jer. 23:28

Nor let us not spend undue time, even, in refuting the dreamers' dreams, for "what is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord."

“This statement is made by way of showing that many are teaching and preaching their own dreams, imaginings or the dreams of their forefathers, in neglect of the Word of God—the Holy Scriptures (or as equal in authority). Jesus charged the religious rulers of His day, saying, "Ye do make void the Law of God through your traditions" (Matt. 15:8, 6, 9) -- teaching as commandments of God what are really the traditions of men. Similarly, both Catholics and Protestants, with good intentions, have gradually left the Word of God-- the teachings of Jesus; the Apostles and the Prophets--and that, commingled with certain truths, they are now teaching the traditions of the "Dark Ages" which are violently antagonistic to the teachings of the Bible. One of these is the false doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin.”

Now it’s true that a true prophet of the Lord may have a dream or vision something which may have been communicated to him by the Lord, which may be intended for himself alone or for others, but when relating his dream to others he is to make sure that those with whom he speaks understand it as such, as a dream, NOT as a divine revelation something to be impose upon the Lord’s people, especially if it in any way it contradicts the written word.

Any dream or vision which is not in full harmony with the written word is not to be accepted it is nothing more than the vain imaginings of the individual.

We need to guard ourselves lest dreams be given undue importance. There was an appropriate necessity for dreams in olden times which do not exist now. (They did not have access to the divine revelation, the written word as we do today). The Lord’s word is to be put far above all dreams of our own and others. If a dream corroborates a plain statement of the Word it may be used as we would use a type, to illustrate but not to teach a doctrine.

"If they (in this case the prophet who has a dream) speak not in harmony with the Word of God, it is because there is no light (no truth) in them." Isa. 8:20

The Lord’s people should not be in expectation of receiving the answers to their questions through dreams and visions, but rather through the written word, “the faith once for all delivered to the saints.”–Jude 3.

 

[Triumph1300]

Out of context.

Why?

It would help if you address it.

 

[bbyrd009]

wadr Mr Hagee's explanation of how Gehenna in the orig became Tartarus in English would be more pertinent, but i don't think you will be able to post that one. The answer to "why would John the Revelator..." is "he did not, ever, say that, and you cannot, ever Quote it either, except in English"