Eternal Security

[djstav]

Bible Gateway
1 John 2:19-20;
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth."

Why hide behind your Bible, it's ain't going to change anything.

 

[BobRyan]

The passing on of the Covenant to Isaac was due to Abraham's obedience before God, not due to Isaac's.
Stranger

Isaac allowed himself to be offered as a human sacrifice to God -- that is "obedient" by any measure. In any case God does not say to either of them "you earned this covenant" - it is the Grace of God that offers -- but as God points out in Jeremiah 18 -- he revokes his promise of good things to come from those who choose to rebel against Him.

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way,

Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die

 

[djstav]

Here's what you said in post 899:

The New Covenant is but a part of the Abrahamic Covenant. It too pertains to Israel but we in the Church come into it under the blessings aspect. (Gen. 12:3) The only condition Abraham was under was in leaving his home to go to the land God had promised. The agreement between the two parties concerning the covenant would not come until much later while he was in the land. (Gen. 15:17-21) Abraham would take the covenant animals and cut them in half, and no doubt expected to pass between the parts with God showing they were in covenant together. But God didn't do that. He put Abraham to sleep, and God passed between the parts.

The above sounds like you're saying it was a bi-lateral covenant.
Maybe it's not what you meant...
It was not an agreement between two parties (that would be bi-lateral)...
it was A UNI-LATERAL agreement.

As to the first paragraph,,,,I don't know, this is a thread about eternal security.
This is a serious derail.

Let me ask you a question.

How can so many believer's extrapolate different ideas when they are all talking to the same spirit.

If I told you that I am the only one who possesses the true spirit & the right theology, would you laugh in my face? (Maybe a little) But you can't prove that I don't, just like no one here can prove you dont, just like you can't prove they don't.

It all comes down to opinion, doesn't it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why hide behind your Bible, it's ain't going to change anything.

No, you're right.
People like you never change.

 

[djstav]

No, you're right.
People like you never change.

People like me? OK.

 

[Stranger]

Genesis 26
So Isaac went to Gerar, to Abimelech king of the Philistines. 2 The Lord appeared to him and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; stay in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”


God tells Isaac that the covenant made with Abraham is made with Isaac "because" Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws and of course "sin IS" by definition "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Your point that God's commandments, statutes, laws were not in "written form" at the time - is a nonissue. God's Word says they existed and His Word says Abraham obeyed them. This is Moses writing in Genesis 26... and Moses uses that same phrase in several places to identify God's commandments, statutes and laws

Your argument at this point is "with the text"

Abraham did obey and left Ur. There were no written laws or commandments. Abraham in obeying the 'voice' of God was obeying God's charge, commandments and statutes and laws. But none of these made Abraham responsible to God for the fulfilling of the Covenant. They were for getting the Covenant established with Abraham. And then passed on to Isaac. As I said earlier, (Gen. 15:7-17) shows that God is the One who passed between the parts. Not Abraham with God. Thus it is God binding Himself to the fulfillment of the Covenant.

It is not a nonissue as God's Word does not say they existed in written form. I have no argument with the text.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Isaac allowed himself to be offered as a human sacrifice to God -- that is "obedient" by any measure. In any case God does not say to either of them "you earned this covenant" - it is the Grace of God that offers -- but as God points out in Jeremiah 18 -- he revokes his promise of good things to come from those who choose to rebel against Him.

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way,

Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die

Yes Isaac was obedient as to allow himself to be sacrificed. But that played no role in the Covenant being passed or established with him. And yes, neither earned the Covenant, but Abraham's obedience was needed in leaving Ur before God established the Covenant with him.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Why hide behind your Bible, it's ain't going to change anything.

Changes everything. It is why we believe what we believe.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me ask you a question.

How can so many believer's extrapolate different ideas when they are all talking to the same spirit.

If I told you that I am the only one who possesses the true spirit & the right theology, would you laugh in my face? (Maybe a little) But you can't prove that I don't, just like no one here can prove you dont, just like you can't prove they don't.

It all comes down to opinion, doesn't it.

I've asked that many times.

I do feel that we have to, after our own investigation, stick to some kind of traditional theology --- whatever that may mean; it could mean different things to different persons.

One problem I have with Protestantism is this idea that we're all little theologians and can come up with our own "opinions".

OTOH, I came out of the CC and we were told that it's the one true church and everything it teaches is correct. So when I decided to leave it I had to study up a bit on my own to make sure I was making the right decision...or at least felt I was making the right decision.

The next church I attended, Nazarene, agreed with the CC on many ideas so this was good for me.

Surely you must be referring to what is being addressed in this thread:

1. Eternal Security.
Some believe it's from God. Like Calvinists. So, you're right, how could anyone ever be sure of their salvation if they have nothing to do with it.

Some believe it's up to us to continue in our faith and worship of God to maintain this salvation...I believe this. I get scolded for saying we have to obey God, but that's what the N.T. tells me. Some think faith is ALL that is necessary.

Some believe that once we savor the love of God it becomes impossible to leave that love that He has for us and if they do it means they were never saved to begin with. (or they never would have left).

How can we know who is right? Two churches I attended agreed with no. 2, the middle paragraph. I see in the N.T. words such as IF, CONTINUE IN, RUN THE RACE, ENDURE TO THE END, KEEP THE FAITH, etc. This shows me that indeed the second paragraph is the right way to go or all these warnings would not be in the N.T.

2. Covenants
I don't know how others know the covenants, but I had to study them so I could teach them to others. I had to go outside of the bible and read theological writings. There is much to know regarding this and I'm aware that I know very little due to the volumes that is written about each covenant. So, even here I'm going by theologians writings, not my own opinions.

Opinions should not have a place in our faith. OTOH, we do need to consciously agree with what we are being taught since we will be judged by what we know on an individual basis.

Complicated subject, I guess.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes Isaac was obedient as to allow himself to be sacrificed. But that played no role in the Covenant being passed or established with him. And yes, neither earned the Covenant, but Abraham's obedience was needed in leaving Ur before God established the Covenant with him.

Stranger

I see what you meant here, but you used different wording in the other post that made it seem that Abraham had to meet a "condition".

 

[GodsGrace]

Why hide behind your Bible, it's ain't going to change anything.

The bible is our first and major source!!

 

[Helen]

Abraham did obey and left Ur. There were no written laws or commandments. Abraham in obeying the 'voice' of God

Amen...
....and that is where I woke up this morning...dwelling on The Voice..

I believe that it is time that we the Church really learned to guard against the mechanics of "Doing", rather than being 'tuned' into God and hearing His Voice . Fresh Manna for today.

"Man does not live by bread alone ( the written word) but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God. " Matt 4:4
He is our Father and our relationship is with the living proceeding Word.
If not...it is just 'the mechanics of religion.'

 

[Episkopos]

Yes. I DO have a problem with this.
I haven't been transported to any cities lately; although I would like to be.
Maybe Jesus meant this in a different way?
Maybe He meant that He was confined to doing His work in the area of Israel while we will be able to bring His message to the whole world....WE, His messengers.

We are to be carriers of divinity.....in these human forms.

2 Cor. 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;

 

[Enoch111]

Lord means Jesus.
LORD means Yaweh.

Then we have to take into consideration that this was not always considered in the O.T. So, yes, sometimes it might say LORD but really we could understand that it was the Son (Lord) and not the Father since the Father was never seen.

Therefore BOTH LORD and Lord. Please note:

And the LORD [YHWH] appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground... (Gen 18:1,2).

Here the LORD [YHWH] is clearly the pre-incarnate Christ (a theophany or a Christophany). He is among the three "men" so the Word took the form of a man, and two angels also took human form.

As noted, no man has seen God the Father. It is the only begotten Son who has always appeared to men. And He is called Yahweh (YHWH).

And then Abraham addressed Him as "my Lord":And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant (v 3).

 

[Episkopos]

Therefore BOTH LORD and Lord. Please note:

And the LORD [YHWH] appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground... (Gen 18:1,2).

Here the LORD [YHWH] is clearly the pre-incarnate Christ (a theophany or a Christophany). He is among the three "men" so the Word took the form of a man, and two angels also took human form.

As noted, no man has seen God the Father. It is the only begotten Son who has always appeared to men. And He is called Yahweh (YHWH).

And then Abraham addressed Him as "my Lord":And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant (v 3).

Good post...Both the Father AND the Son are Lord...YHVH...At one point the Father is referred to as "Elyon"...the Most High. This is to differentiate the Father and the Son. The great mystery is the the Lord becoming 2 persons...yet retaining the same name of the previous union....Yahweh or Jehovah.

The Father is 3 times holy...and we are filled to be holy. So then the Son is twice holy...as a Mediator between the Father and mankind. Just a thought...

 

[djstav]

Changes everything. It is why we believe what we believe.

Stranger

I wish that were true, I'd of stayed a Christian.

 

[djstav]

The bible is our first and major source!!

Of what exactly? OK, let me ask you another question.

If Christianity works, why are so many Christian's bone heads?

 

[Nancy]

Of what exactly? OK, let me ask you another question.

If Christianity works, why are so many Christian's bone heads?

Ha! Yes, many boneheads and pew warmers out there, lol. It did NOT "work" for me 20 years ago but, back then, I did not BELIEVE His grace was sufficient for my particular, sin.
I did not BELIEVE what certain boneheads were telling me.
Fast forward not too many years back, it is all different now, I can only say that when I opened my tight fist and just begged Him to take from me what I did not trust Him with, my eyes WERE opened. I kept walking around saying, to myself no less, "I see now" I see"! And that went on for many days and still comes into my head. God's grace IS sufficient for ANYTHING as He has proven it from that day on...for myself. He is a rewarder to those who DILIGENTLY seek Him. And, oh how true that is. Different with most as, we are individuals and our experiences are different...He want's fellowship with us...

 

[Episkopos]

Of what exactly? OK, let me ask you another question.

If Christianity works, why are so many Christian's bone heads?

I'll take that one!

Christianity attracts all kinds of people. Because the things spoken of in the bible are so fantastic...this attracts people who are drawn to fantasy....even though the bible is speaking the truth. So then the witness of such folk tends to the fantastical and has really nothing to do with reality. Then there are the conspiracy theorists...and all manner of axe-grinders...and all this in the flesh.

But the worse kind of attraction is to they who seek to be saved by doing something or other. This has 2 sides to it. Those who look to do something...and those who react against those and do nothing. Both are according to the flesh. Both are religious and outside of the life that Jesus brings to us. So then religion masks true spiritual Christianity. Watch out for the many facades. What looks to be real often is just a ruse...and many who adopt the facade think that is all there is. In the end there is so much confusion that there is no possibility of unity. And that is because the flesh can't decide which wrong way to follow. Some people feel good about doing things...and others feel good to do nothing and let Jesus do everything for them. But neither camp know the risen Lord or have walked in His power.

But then there is a small flock...actually a very scattered flock...of they who have let go of their lives, opinions, and great ideas...to be led by the Spirit. It can be almost impossible to sort the truth from the half-truths with all the teachings and what-not. But the gospel is about LIFE. A new LIFE in Christ. And power. Power to live as Jesus lived and do as He did. In that life is an overwhelming joy, love and peace. So then only look to those who have this fruit...and walk with them.

The kingdom of God is in the Spirit...which is another dimension...a dimension that has priority over this present reality. The power of things in this life originate from that realm. To walk in the Spirit is to become FREE from the ignorance and traps that are set by nefarious spiritual entities that give our lives no meaning. Jesus sets us FREE. We are free to see what is really behind the curtain...since the curtain is no longer there.

Just think about it. Would there be so much counterfeit if there wasn't also the genuine? Who counterfeits something that doesn't have any value?

 

[Episkopos]

The right way of proceeding will always be rejected by the majority as foolish....impractical, and impossible. Just sayin'