Eternal Security
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Exactly. The lack of clarity....even the twisting of meaning of key words has led the church to it's present powerless state. You are now doing the very thing you are warning others about by sticking to a vague statement like "to credit to one's account". Religious lawyers can have a field day with the vagueness of that.
Are you a lawyer?
You can't make the word formulation that suits you trump all other proper definitions. The word "credit" is misleading.
To impute means to "attribute" ... but if we were to use credit we would say "to give credit where credit is due. " Certainly not the modern false interpretation meaning to be credited for something another did.
When a writer takes credit for another person's work....that's NOT a case where we can honestly use the word "impute"...unless you want to talk about plagiarizing. In that case you could say..."the plagiarization was imputed to the writer who stole the other's work". Then we would be getting at the truth.
We don't need to be dishonest when it comes to spiritual things. Our OWN righteousness is imputed to us. Tht's how imputing works. God's righteousness is imputed to Him. How then do we become the righteousness of God ?(note: it says the righteousness OF God...therefore imputed to Him)
We take on God's righteousness when we put on the New Man. When we enter into the Spirit. Then we are living in a "world" of holiness so that every thought and action is holy. In that case it is better to say that God's righteousness is IMPARTED to us by entering into Him.
Cultic behaviour begins when we counterfeit something of God...calling something OURS when in fact we have nothing. No, God's attributes are found in Him and we must enter into Him to take these on.
You mean the Son,,,but Jesus is good too.
The Son has always existed...
Jesus started living 2,000 years ago.
But it's the same "person".
If YAWEH was visible in the O.T., it was the Son.
I think we've established that no one has ever seen God except He that comes from above.
Man has a "sinful nature" but sin is "transgression of the LAW" according to the actual Bible - see 1 John 3:4
The lost have no power against sin they "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-10
...it boils down to independence from the Lord.
Indeed. Before the LAW was given at Sinai -- people were sinning no matter that it was not "written on stone".
The LAW came 430 years AFTER Abraham - that is when it was "written on stone".
Gal 3: 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise..
But God's "spoken Word" is LAW and so LAW existed BEFORE it was "written on stone"
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
No it is not. There is no text saying "the Law was not in effect until Sinai" and we all know it.
That means it was "SIN" for Cain to kill Abel "SIN is crouching at your door" Genesis 4
That means it was "SIN" For Joseph to give in to adultery "How can I commit this great SIN against God" Genesis
It would always be "SIN" to "Take God's name in vain" -- at every point in history.
Almost All Christian Scholarship admits to this existence of the LAW of God from Adam to this very day.
The sinful nature of man from Adam to this very day -- is a nature with a "bent" toward sin.
Sin "IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- by definition.
That is creative writing - it is not scripture to say that "Adam did not transgress"
1. Sin is not imputed to the sinner who sins. Rather the sinner who sins is guilty without the sin being imputed.
2. Sin IS imputed to descendants of the sinner - as being among the race of sinners.
More creative writing?
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
That means it was "SIN" for Cain to kill Abel "SIN is crouching at your door" Genesis 4
That means it was "SIN" For Joseph to give in to adultery "How can I commit this great SIN against God" Genesis
It would always be "SIN" to "Take God's name in vain" -- at every point in history.
And I choose to believe the actual Word of God... to each his own. You have free will.
Stranger said "Adam transgressed" and you said in your post that "Adam sinned but he did not transgress" -- the agreement that the two of you have there - escapes me just then... but I do see a lot of agreement between the two of you on some of the other points.
It means to credit without the item being earned - rather it is credited -- assigned.
For example - Justification by faith - at the moment of justification you have Christ's righteousness imputed to you.
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Agreed. The incarnation did not exist before the birth of Christ - so then God the Son existed but the human nature of the Son was not yet created until He was incarnate. 1 Cor 10:4 says "That Rock was Christ" but not claiming he was incarnate in the OT.
My point is that the name "YHWH" appears to apply to anyone of the 3 members of the Godhead "The Lord your God is ONE" and so that "name" applies to them all.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Context. "If you believe not that I am" what? "That I am the I AM"? Of course not! "If you believe not that I am "from above" referring to his heavenly origin from the Father.
Scripture please. We are to believe Yeshua is the Son of God (Son of YHWH). We are NOT to believe Yeshua is God Himself.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Yeshua is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Yeshua is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
The Father DID NOT send Himself and our confession is NOT that "Yeshua is God", but the "Son of God".
The "Lord" of 1 Corinthians 8:6 is in contrast to the "one God". Paul was not trying to teach us their is only one Lord. He just got done saying there are "many lords" in verse 5. The Father and the Son are two separate beings and each bears the title "Lord". That does not make them the same being anymore than YHWH being the Father and me being a father makes me YHWH.
False. In the passages/context both before and after that verse, Yeshua makes it clear that he is not referring to himself, but to the God of Abraham. Also, did NOT teach that "the Lord our God is one Lord". He taught "YHWH our God is one YHWH" or "YHWH our God, YHWH is one".
The New Testament didn't exist when Paul wrote 1 Timothy. The only body of Scripture they had was the OT. Even though there were isolated letters and Gospels, none of them "sanctified" meats when understood correctly.
Acts 12:4 in the KJV proves the KJV is NOT perfect.
Mark 7:15-19 - First, you said the KJV was perfect, yet you don't use it in Mark 7:19, choosing instead to use the false modern translations.
MarK 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught (the privy/toilet), purging all meats (from the body via the excretory system)?
Luke 11:41 - Here is Gill's commentary;
and behold all things are clean unto you; that is, according to their own opinion, who fancied that alms deeds justified them in the sight of God, cleansed them from their sins, delivered them from hell, and gave them a title to eternal life; See Gill on Mat_6:1 for it can never be thought to be our Lord's meaning in earnest, that either their persons, or what they had, should be pure and clean unto them, by giving a part of their ill-gotten goods to the poor; but he speaks their sense, in an ironic way.
Romans 14:14 - The word "unclean" should have been translated "common", as it is from the Greek word koinos. The margin of most good study Bibles will confirm this.
Recall what Peter said in Acts 10:14, ". . . I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." The word common in this verse is "koinos". When a clean animal becomes unedible for some reason, for example, by being sacrificed to an idol, it is called common or koinos. Paul's statement in Romans 14:14 referred to clean meat which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat, preferring instead to only eat herbs, (vs. 2). A pig is unclean of itself, it was created unclean. A goat that was sacrificed to an idol is not common of itself. It became common in the mind of a person through outside means. The weaker brother esteemed in his own mind that meat should not be eaten because it may have become common for some reason. It is common meat that Paul was referring to, not unclean meat.
No, this is very wrong. Our own righteousness is not imputed to us. It is what we have. And is as filthy rags. God's righteousness is also His. It is not imputed to Him.
God imputes His righteousness to us, covering us. But it is not our righteousness, ever. Never will be. That is our guarantee of eternal life. That is why we have eternal life right now.
Just as (Rom. 5:13) says concerning sin. It is not imputed when there is no law. Though the sin was theirs, God did not impute it to them. So, though they are, God says they are not. It is the same with His righteousness. Though we are not, God says we are because He imputes His righteousness, the righteousness of Christ to us. It is not ours. It is Christ's.
Stranger
YHWH is the NAME of God.
Like someone could be named John.
Since all 3 of the persons are God, I would suppose all three could be called YAHWEH or YHWH. There is only ONE GOD, only ONE John. This makes logical sense...which is not easy to find in the Trinity!
However, I was taught that each person is separate and has His own attributes and work to do. So, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc.
But this is different. Would you agree?
The Trinity is a mystery.
A time will come when we will see the Trinity and then we will understand.
This is for sure.
The best explanation I have for it is this:
A man could be a father, a son, a brother.
Then each one of those "persons" somehow becomes separate and individual, but they are all still "part" of the one person that is all three.
There really is no way to explain it.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to read this or anything you write. You are being ignored, as you deserve to be.
Stranger, post: 439592, member: 7282"]No, this is very wrong. Our own righteousness is not imputed to us. It is what we have. And is as filthy rags. God's righteousness is also His. It is not imputed to Him.
Utter confusion. Your up is down and down is up. If God's righteousness is His it IS imputed to Him.
God imputes His righteousness to us, covering us.
It is imparted through abiding in Him. But it remains God's.
But it is not our righteousness, ever. Never will be. That is our guarantee of eternal life. That is why we have eternal life right now.
I wish you really understood this... We actually become His righteousness...when we abide IN Him. So then we actually take on His righteousness....IN Him. But you aren't getting this.
Just as (Rom. 5:13) says concerning sin. It is not imputed when there is no law. Though the sin was theirs, God did not impute it to them. So, though they are, God says they are not. It is the same with His righteousness. Though we are not, God says we are because He imputes His righteousness, the righteousness of Christ to us. It is not ours. It is Christ's.
Stranger
You need a dictionary before reading the bible. Otherwise you are getting things in a knot.
Friend
Utter confusion. Your up is down and down is up. If God's righteousness is His it IS imputed to Him.
God imputes His righteousness to us, covering us.
It is imparted through abiding in Him. But it remains God's.
But it is not our righteousness, ever. Never will be. That is our guarantee of eternal life. That is why we have eternal life right now.
I wish you really understood this... We actually become His righteousness...when we abide IN Him. So then we actually take on His righteousness....IN Him. But you aren't getting this.
Just as (Rom. 5:13) says concerning sin. It is not imputed when there is no law. Though the sin was theirs, God did not impute it to them. So, though they are, God says they are not. It is the same with His righteousness. Though we are not, God says we are because He imputes His righteousness, the righteousness of Christ to us. It is not ours. It is Christ's.
Stranger
You need a dictionary before reading the bible. Otherwise you are getting things in a knot.
Friend
bbyrd009
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there are no male or female in the kingdom, so wadr you might see that these are one flesh, and a woman can speak from her man as easily as the reverse, a man can speak from his woman
if you are applying it literally you might be i guess
all well being as how knowledge brings sorrow i guess we'll see
omg, never mind then lolThat's right. An unbeliever is not saved. Because the only way he might be saved apart from faith in Jesus (i.e. if he is trusting in his works to save him) would be to keep the law perfectly from conception to eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). And that is not something that anyone can do...Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8, Psalms 51:3.
Because salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9 and context).
More accurately, Matthew 7:21-23 says, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
You should be able to see from this that the opposite of working iniquity is not the doing of good works. The people in this passage were, in fact, trusting that their works were salvational to them. They wondered why Jesus wasn't letting them in; because they had "prophesied in His name", "cast out devils in His name", and "done many wonderful things in His name."
If we obey Jesus as a requirement, as an attempt to save ourselves, we are not obeying Jesus out of the right motivations. The only proper motivation for obeying Jesus (keeping His commandments) is love for Him. This can only truly be in a person who knows they are saved; a person who is not trying to gain acceptance before God by what they are doing. Knowing that we are accepted in the Beloved, we (who are the redeemed) obey the Lord as an outcropping of that salvation and assurance, out of thankfulness and love for Him (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19).
If someone is a worker of iniquity they are not born again. It is not that they are condemned for that they didn't obey the Lord; it is that they are condemned for that they were never born again. Their disobedience is only the evidence to all who witness their judgment that they were never saved.
Now those who are not saved will be condemned for their disobedience; but only because they are not forgiven of all their sin and therefore their disobedience is still imputed to them.
Yes, God's righteousness is indeed imparted to those who are born again (Matthew 5:5, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7); however it is also imputed in justification. To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5).
Notice that this is an imputation of righteousness to the person who is ungodly.
Jesus is indeed referring to the fact that He is the great I AM in John 8:24. If you do not want to believe this then please search your heart as to why that is so that God can deal with the problem before it is too late for you. You are taking an awful chance in your interpretation; for if I am right and you are wrong, you will die in your sins if you continue to hold your opinion (and perish before you change your mind).
That is your prerogative. People have done that to faithful ministers for far less (and far more) than holding to the standard of 1 Timothy 2:12-14. Just know that in ignoring my posts, you are robbing yourself of the benefits of my spiritual gift as it is offered to the body of Christ (which is word of wisdom).
If you are still looking in to see what I will post, I would say to you this:
Jesus said, Blessed is he whosoever shall not be offended in me (Matthew 11:6);
And, also in Psalms 119:165, it is written, Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
When a person leaves a church or stops listening to a pastor because of offense, it is often because said pastor has done his job correctly. It is because he has preached sound doctrine; and the person who left wanted another teacher who might tell them what might tickle their ears: because they did not like what the pastor had to say, they go somewhere else so they can hear the opposite of what they had been told. It is written in 2 Timothy 4:1-5 that in the last days people will not endure sound doctrine and that this is what they will do; and some will even be turned aside unto fables. But it is not the fault of the pastor. It is the fault of the hardened heart of the parishioner; they didn't want to hear the truth after all but only wanted someone to tell them what they wanted to hear.
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justbyfaith, post: 439697, member: 7886"]
If someone is a worker of iniquity they are not born again. It is not that they are condemned for that they didn't obey the Lord; it is that they are condemned for that they were never born again. Their disobedience is only the evidence to all who witness their judgment that they were never saved.
There's a lot to cover here. A lot of error. The above statement isn't true...a person can begin in the Spirit and try being perfected in the flesh...through men's teachings. Iniquity is just mixture. So then it is quite easy to mix in truth with traditions or carnal notions. We are to DEPART from iniquity. That means that iniquity is always trying to get in. Those who keep iniquity out will be vessels of honour. Only people who have received grace have this challenge. Iniquity is a sin for Christians...not the world.
Now those who are not saved will be condemned for their disobedience; but only because they are not forgiven of all their sin and therefore their disobedience is still imputed to them.
Not at all. A Christian can be very disobedient. We can become altogether unfruitful.
Yes, God's righteousness is indeed imparted to those who are born again (Matthew 5:5, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7); however it is also imputed in justification.
This is a strange jumble... God's righteousness is not there until we enter into Him....not necessarily when we are born again. We must be baptized in the Spirit to receive that kind of power. Most Christians live their whole lives walking in their own power. We need to go to God for the full amount of grace and His righteousness.
Justification happens when we are born again...at redemption.
To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5).
Notice that this is an imputation of righteousness to the person who is ungodly.
That's not what it says. What it is saying is that we are justified when we let God justify the ungodly...like people of other religions and non-religious people. Most Christians are completely unable to do this. They think they must become Christian in order to be justified...therefore they are not qualified for justification themselves according to the verse you cited.
Can you notice that God justified people who are not Christian? You asked me to notice...but I don't think you understand the verse or the idea in question.
If someone is a worker of iniquity they are not born again. It is not that they are condemned for that they didn't obey the Lord; it is that they are condemned for that they were never born again. Their disobedience is only the evidence to all who witness their judgment that they were never saved.
There's a lot to cover here. A lot of error. The above statement isn't true...a person can begin in the Spirit and try being perfected in the flesh...through men's teachings. Iniquity is just mixture. So then it is quite easy to mix in truth with traditions or carnal notions. We are to DEPART from iniquity. That means that iniquity is always trying to get in. Those who keep iniquity out will be vessels of honour. Only people who have received grace have this challenge. Iniquity is a sin for Christians...not the world.
Now those who are not saved will be condemned for their disobedience; but only because they are not forgiven of all their sin and therefore their disobedience is still imputed to them.
Not at all. A Christian can be very disobedient. We can become altogether unfruitful.
Yes, God's righteousness is indeed imparted to those who are born again (Matthew 5:5, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7); however it is also imputed in justification.
This is a strange jumble... God's righteousness is not there until we enter into Him....not necessarily when we are born again. We must be baptized in the Spirit to receive that kind of power. Most Christians live their whole lives walking in their own power. We need to go to God for the full amount of grace and His righteousness.
Justification happens when we are born again...at redemption.
To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5).
Notice that this is an imputation of righteousness to the person who is ungodly.
That's not what it says. What it is saying is that we are justified when we let God justify the ungodly...like people of other religions and non-religious people. Most Christians are completely unable to do this. They think they must become Christian in order to be justified...therefore they are not qualified for justification themselves according to the verse you cited.
Can you notice that God justified people who are not Christian? You asked me to notice...but I don't think you understand the verse or the idea in question.
That is like saying that there is no such thing as uncleanness because nothing is unclean of itself. The Bible in certain places speaks of uncleanness, however, in a negative light (Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Corinthians 6:17).
Okay lol.
And you say that I am in error...see Matthew 7:13-14 and John 14:6.
The way to life is narrow and few there be that find it...Jesus is the only way to the Father!
If you really want to understand the bible...you need to try not eliminating one truth by misunderstanding another and having them cancel each other out. You are the one who chose that verse that says God justifies the ungodly....but you actually don't believe it. If I recite the verse back to you...you deny it. See to your own ways...
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