Getting Grace Right

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Episkopos

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It seems that the people who push grace the most understand it the least. To have grace means to not judge others, yet the most judgmental people in the world are grace pushers. And this follows human nature. Unless the flesh has been dealt with at the cross...the old nature will latch onto grace like a swine to mud.

So then how do we stop people from claiming grace for themselves BEFORE the old nature and the old ways of the flesh are eliminated? Well, you simply can't. The message is out....and a lot of people own a bible and know how to read...so that's that.

But there is something we can do...we can humble ourselves (again normally grace purveyors are the least humble people in the world) and see just how merciful we are to others who are not like us.

Are we harder on people than God is?

Do people see us as filled with love?

What is our grace doctrine doing for us? Has it fooled us into being a judgmental unloving person?
 
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Episkopos

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Let's take this verse...

Rom. 4:5 But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Our faith is counted for righteousness IF we allow God to justify the ungodly...of other religions, races, traditions...whatever. God has been justifying people before we were born....and He never needs our approval. But unless we are in agreement with God's liberal ways of grace...we ourselves are NOT justified.

It is like th story of the man who was forgiven much...yet he couldn't be as gracious to the man who owed him. So then his own mercy was revoked.

I think if people knew that their justification could be revoked like that...they would be more careful before condemning others...yes...even the ungodly.

Normally indoctrinated people can only understand justification in regards to people who are like themselves. So then as soon as you mention the words...Muslim or Hindu, or Samaritan...people automatically think...HELL.

Is that grace or law? So then hypocrites seek grace for themselves but law for others. In truth God will switch them around so that those who treat others by law...will themselves be judged by law. And they who have been judged by law will receive grace. That is how God operates.

Judge not lest you be judged. Be merciful to others and God will be merciful to you. Some of the hardest lessons on earth for those who have latched onto grace but according to the flesh.
 

Episkopos

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The bible says...Grace is deceitful. or...Favour is deceitful.

שקר החן

Skeker hachen

Why? Because smug people are not careful. Spoiled people live in a false sense of security. Favour spoils a humble attitude....and all this because of sinful flesh. The fear of the Lord is meant to protect us for the excesses of pride that puff us up when we get favour from God. The many warnings in the bible are there as a testimony to the real dangers faced by someone who has received grace. Those who have received grace will be judged harder for it. Most people can't fathom this. They believe...to whom much is given...LESS is required. And they live their lives that way. But the opposite is true.
 

Enoch111

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It seems that the people who push grace the most understand it the least.
Every Christian should "push" (promote and proclaim) grace since God's infinite grace is the basis of our salvation. As to understanding it the least, perhaps you too have a misunderstanding, as I will point out next.
To have grace means to not judge others.
Not necessarily. Christ was grace personified, yet He made some very harsh judgments about the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers.
...yet the most judgmental people in the world are grace pushers.
That too is a judgment, but there is no hard evidence for this.
And this follows human nature. Unless the flesh has been dealt with at the cross...the old nature will latch onto grace like a swine to mud.
Unless you believe in sinless perfection in this life, the "flesh" (the old Adamic nature) is within every believer. But that does not detract from the fact that God's grace has been shown to that person because he or she has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
So then how do we stop people from claiming grace for themselves BEFORE the old nature and the old ways of the flesh are eliminated?
That would not only be foolish, but it would violate the Gospel and the grace of God. If this is really what you believe, then ABSOLUTELY NO CHRISTIAN can claim to have experienced the grace of God, since the flesh is still there -- it is not eradicated at the New Birth.
But there is something we can do...we can humble ourselves (again normally grace purveyors are the least humble people in the world) and see just how merciful we are to others who are not like us.
There is no question that Christians are required to be merciful. If by "not like us" you mean those who promote false doctrines, we can love them but hate their doctrines. Indeed, Christ commended those Christians who hated false doctrines and false practices. See Revelation 2 & 3. It is a loving thing to show others that their beliefs are false and that they should not continue to believe things which are not true according to Scripture.
 
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Episkopos

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"Enoch111, post: 439743, member: 7853"]Every Christian should "push" (promote and proclaim) grace since God's infinite grace is the basis of our salvation. As to understanding it the least, perhaps you too have a misunderstanding, as I will point out next.

People should push /promote Christ...not grace. We are to do it with grace and be grace personified. There is a problem already in your hypothesis.

Not necessarily. Christ was grace personified, yet He made some very harsh judgments about the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers.

So you are just trying to copy Jesus and pretend to have the same heavenly support for your every judgment? We don't judge based on grace...we temper judgment with grace. Speaking the truth...in love. But only a spiritual person is qualified to judge.



Unless you believe in sinless perfection in this life, the "flesh" (the old Adamic nature) is within every believer.


That's not the gospel. The gospel is the power of life over death...and we are dead to sin. The Old man is crucified to free us from his grip so that we are free to walk in the power of Christ. I believe that Jesus is without sin...and we can walk IN Him in His life...which is without sin. So our perfection is already there in Him. Now we are to strive to enter into HIS rest and walk as He walked in resurrection life.

But that does not detract from the fact that God's grace has been shown to that person because he or she has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, you are not using the biblical evidence here. God justifies the ungodly...not just the repentant. It is God who grants repentance for following Christ. You have to stick to the subject matter. God grants repentance to some. Others come looking for Him...but still others are just ungodly...and God justifies whom He wills. THIS really irks the false purveyors of grace.

That would not only be foolish, but it would violate the Gospel and the grace of God. If this is really what you believe, then ABSOLUTELY NO CHRISTIAN can claim to have experienced the grace of God, since the flesh is still there -- it is not eradicated at the New Birth.

But it is when we enter into Christ. We receive the initial grace...the forgiveness of sins and a new nature...but no power. THEN we go to God for the full measure of grace. The devil doesn't want you to do that so he has introduced plenty of evangelical sounding teachings to that effect. Maybe you were indoctrinated by these?

There is no question that Christians are required to be merciful. If by "not like us" you mean those who promote false doctrines, we can love them but hate their doctrines.

Those who promote iniquity? These will fare worse than the ungodly.

Indeed, Christ commended those Christians who hated false doctrines and false practices. See Revelation 2 & 3. It is a loving thing to show others that their beliefs are false and that they should not continue to believe things which are not true according to Scripture.

So you are for what I'm trying to do? I do appreciate that brother! :)
 
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justbyfaith

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It is false doctrine to say that saving grace is extended to those who haven't put their faith in Christ and His shed blood (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Hebrews 9:22).

The "ungodly" in Romans 4:5 does not refer explicitly to people of other religions as a definition. They are indeed ungodly, since they have not received the saving grace of God to make them new creatures in Christ.

In that verse, the righteousness imputed to the ungodly man is imputed because of his faith in Jesus.

People of other religions generally don't have faith in the Lord; otherwise they wuold be classified as Christians.

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life...the way to life is narrow and few there be that find it...and the author of Hebrews mentioned that without the blood of Jesus there is no forgiveness.
 

aspen

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It seems that the people who push grace the most understand it the least. To have grace means to not judge others, yet the most judgmental people in the world are grace pushers. And this follows human nature. Unless the flesh has been dealt with at the cross...the old nature will latch onto grace like a swine to mud.

So then how do we stop people from claiming grace for themselves BEFORE the old nature and the old ways of the flesh are eliminated? Well, you simply can't. The message is out....and a lot of people own a bible and know how to read...so that's that.

But there is something we can do...we can humble ourselves (again normally grace purveyors are the least humble people in the world) and see just how merciful we are to others who are not like us.

Are we harder on people than God is?

Do people see us as filled with love?

What is our grace doctrine doing for us? Has it fooled us into being a judgmental unloving person?

Good post

The more we try to legalize grace....transforming it into a transaction....the more we attempt to control it. Trying to control God is like trying to control the wind - remember, He doesn’t owe us anything - even if we say the magic words on a four spiritual law tract.
 

Episkopos

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"justbyfaith, post: 439829, member: 7886"]It is false doctrine to say that saving grace is extended to those who haven't put their faith in Christ and His shed blood (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Hebrews 9:22).


You are confusing grace and justification. Just because words sound biblical doesn't mean it all means the same thing. What kind of religious formula is belief in Christ's shed blood. The Romans who put Jesus to death are even more sure of His shed blood.


The "ungodly" in Romans 4:5 does not refer explicitly to people of other religions as a definition. They are indeed ungodly, since they have not received the saving grace of God to make them new creatures in Christ.

Exactly. Yet God justified them...

In that verse, the righteousness imputed to the ungodly man is imputed because of his faith in Jesus.

Not in this case.

People of other religions generally don't have faith in the Lord; otherwise they wuold be classified as Christians.

No kidding.

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life...the way to life is narrow and few there be that find it...and the author of Hebrews mentioned that without the blood of Jesus there is no forgiveness.

You are mixing 2 things here. The way of life is to find the abiding place whereby we walk as Jesus did. Very few will ever do that. This is not about ultimate salvation but about perfection in Christ.

Jesus shed His blood for the whole world...not just the church or saints.
 
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justbyfaith

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See Romans 5:9, Romans 5:1, and then Romans 3:25.

Forgiveness through the blood of Jesus is appropriated through faith in that shed blood.

You should not be here because you are not a Christian but a Universalist.

re #8.
 

aspen

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Justification is not magic either.....being justified is like being accepted into university -it is the beginning of a new relationship, past relationships with high school no longer count against you
 
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Nancy

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It seems that the people who push grace the most understand it the least. To have grace means to not judge others, yet the most judgmental people in the world are grace pushers. And this follows human nature. Unless the flesh has been dealt with at the cross...the old nature will latch onto grace like a swine to mud.

So then how do we stop people from claiming grace for themselves BEFORE the old nature and the old ways of the flesh are eliminated? Well, you simply can't. The message is out....and a lot of people own a bible and know how to read...so that's that.

But there is something we can do...we can humble ourselves (again normally grace purveyors are the least humble people in the world) and see just how merciful we are to others who are not like us.

Are we harder on people than God is?

Do people see us as filled with love?

What is our grace doctrine doing for us? Has it fooled us into being a judgmental unloving person?

"Are we harder on people than God is?"
Well, all I can say is I am SO happy that God is not a human! Because I am pretty sure heaven would be empty, lol.
 

Helen

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"justbyfaith, post: 439829, member: 7886"]It is false doctrine to say that saving grace is extended to those who haven't put their faith in Christ and His shed blood (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Hebrews 9:22).


You are confusing grace and justification. Just because words sound biblical doesn't mean it all means the same thing. What kind of religious formula is belief in Christ's shed blood. The Romans who put Jesus to death are even more sure of His shed blood.


The "ungodly" in Romans 4:5 does not refer explicitly to people of other religions as a definition. They are indeed ungodly, since they have not received the saving grace of God to make them new creatures in Christ.

Exactly. Yet God justified them...

In that verse, the righteousness imputed to the ungodly man is imputed because of his faith in Jesus.

Not in this case.

People of other religions generally don't have faith in the Lord; otherwise they wuold be classified as Christians.

No kidding.

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life...the way to life is narrow and few there be that find it...and the author of Hebrews mentioned that without the blood of Jesus there is no forgiveness.

You are mixing 2 things here. The way of life is to find the abiding place whereby we walk as Jesus did. Very few will ever do that. This is not about ultimate salvation but about perfection in Christ.

Jesus shed His blood for the whole world...not just the church or saints.


Great post!!
Sad that so many legalist cannot see the depth of the heart of Father God.

...Thumb.gif
 

Helen

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See Romans 5:9, Romans 5:1, and then Romans 3:25.

Forgiveness through the blood of Jesus is appropriated through faith in that shed blood.

You should not be here because you are not a Christian but a Universalist.

re #8.

Dear friend...that is not your call. :D

You have a very small God....that is sad. :oops:
 

Stranger

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It seems that the people who push grace the most understand it the least. To have grace means to not judge others, yet the most judgmental people in the world are grace pushers. And this follows human nature. Unless the flesh has been dealt with at the cross...the old nature will latch onto grace like a swine to mud.

So then how do we stop people from claiming grace for themselves BEFORE the old nature and the old ways of the flesh are eliminated? Well, you simply can't. The message is out....and a lot of people own a bible and know how to read...so that's that.

But there is something we can do...we can humble ourselves (again normally grace purveyors are the least humble people in the world) and see just how merciful we are to others who are not like us.

Are we harder on people than God is?

Do people see us as filled with love?

What is our grace doctrine doing for us? Has it fooled us into being a judgmental unloving person?

More feel good doctrine that actually appeals to our flesh, not our spirit. To know the grace of God in no way means not to judge others. It in no way is based on our being a 'unloving person'.

The grace you preach is not the grace of God.

Stranger
 

Episkopos

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See Romans 5:9, Romans 5:1, and then Romans 3:25.

Forgiveness through the blood of Jesus is appropriated through faith in that shed blood.

You should not be here because you are not a Christian but a Universalist.

re #8.


To you it seems that way because I'm not religious. God is looking for spiritual fruit not religious nuts. ;)
 

Episkopos

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More feel good doctrine that actually appeals to our flesh, not our spirit. To know the grace of God in no way means not to judge others. It in no way is based on our being a 'unloving person'.

The grace you preach is not the grace of God.

Stranger


It's not the churchy religious grace, that's for sure. ;) I testify of grace that has power. We who have been given grace are to walk in that power. But we are not to judge others. God judges these. What we do judge is how people mishandle the word, not making a distinction between the world and the house of God.

So then God is easy to please....but hard to satisfy. As Christians we determine which camp we are in by how we judge others. If we don't judge...God will go easy on us. But then most believers are very hard in their judgment...so then they better have the same fruit as the early saints...just sayin'
 
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Stranger

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It's not the churchy religious grace, that's for sure. ;) I testify of grace that has power. We who have been given grace are to walk in that power. But we are not to judge others. God judges these. What we do judge is how people mishandle the word, not making a distinction between the world and the house of God.

So then God is easy to please....but hard to satisfy. As Christians we determine which camp we are in by how we judge others. If we don't judge...God will go easy on us. But then most believers are very hard in their judgment...so then they better have the same fruit as the early saints...just sayin'

No, it's not the grace of God.

Stranger