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Featured Getting Grace Right

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Episkopos, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Sins that are past...not perpetual forgiveness.

    Gal. 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

    The problem with your multiple definitions is that you can glide in and out of the difficulties by avoiding the truth. I am not going to post all the verses that say a Christian can't sin...or that we have victory over sin in Christ. I leave that for you.


    Believing in His work on the cross...is not Christianity or the gospel. That is a counterfeit illusion of what being a Christian is about. Being raised into new life....now that is the gospel...being freed from sin and bondage. You are trying to make the Gospel a saving act to THE FLESH. But if we live by the flesh...even fully trusting in Jesus blood...we will die. If we put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit...we will live.

    Our beliefs mean nothing. You are trusting in the "Emperor's new clothes" of righteousness in this. It will be revealed to be hay and stubble on that day...

    Unconditional justification? See how the error grows...

    Justification is a moving target. What makes you righteous today...could be lost tomorrow. Did you know that Satan was created tamim? (innocent of evil). But then something happened. So we are still "in play". We must finish our race.

    I will not comment on the rest as it contains the same mixture.
     
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    We are to seek God's face AFTER we have been regenerated by the Spirit. That's WHY we are quickened in the first place. But most people go half-baked into the world thinking they are saved for all eternity. It's like the 10 lepers who were healed...yet only one returned to Jesus. Jesus asked....where are the other 9?

    So it is with much of the junk theology being passed off as doctrines today.
     
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    See Romans 4:7-8, Hebrews 9:12, and Hebrews 10:14-17.

    That is not a scriptural statement. John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Hebrews 13:5 are all promises on the eternal security of all those who are truly born again. (and therefore true salvation, once it has been truly received, cannot be lost).

    These are promises that we obtain by faith as born again believers who have a living and saving faith (see 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, and Romans 4:20-22).
     
  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me started on eternal security. That is a strawman.... The only eternal security we have is the eternal we walk in when we abide in Christ. it is the miraculous life we can walk in that shows us that eternal life is real for us.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It has more to do with the concept of the fact that we need food for nourishment as believers; and we eat by getting into God's word and seeking Him for our daily manna.

    Now most people I know don't refrain from eating their daily meals for any reason. They eat because they are hungry.

    Those who are not redeemed are dead in their trespasses and sins. Therefore they do not seek nourishment from the Lord, because they are dead; and therefore they cannot be hungry for the things of the Lord.

    Some people when they are eating spit out the nutritious things that they don't like, such as broccoli (which I will say for practical purposes here is like the doctrine that the way to life is narrow and there are few that find it). I would say that such people are spiritual babies or else they are simply not hungry for anything that is truly and actually God. They just want their ears tickled by some preacher preaching a false gospel.
     
  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Here is another example of creating your own theology. "Eternal security is a straw man...". Imagine.
     
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  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Look up the verses, why don't you?

    How is eternal security a strawman? you said,

    And I responded to your statement. That is not any kind of strawman but a biblical response to your statement based in faithful logic.
     
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  8. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I stand by what I said.

    You judged him by saying to him.....
    < You should not be here because you are not a Christian but a Universalist. >

    I still maintain that is NOT you call!!!
    Why is that a path that leads to destruction??
    Just your view and your opinion.
    You are not the Judge.

    I can tell you now...God is not going to examine what and how we believe what we believe... but in the scales we will be weighed against the balancing scale ...which is LOVE.

    God shows us over and over throughout His Book...
    Love always wins. Maybe you overlooked that part?

    When our own beliefs are perfect , and our walk is perfect, and our love is perfect...then maybe we can look over the fence at the other guy... But, the only reason for that would be to HELP him , bless him, and encourage him along the Pathway.

    We must always look first to our own vineyard and start weeding there.

    BTW..to be fair...you have put up some good posts that I could agree with :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  9. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The bible stresses warnings to keep the works up till the end. This is life a war and a test...but many as you do see it as more of a retirement time. But God will judge. Are we on a war footing....or are we at ease?

    We have access to eternal life....but that is a KIND of life found in Jesus. People think too much in terms of eternal as a length of time that will somehow start in the future. Like a pagan after-life.

    Many will be shocked at the difference between what they were taught and what actually happens at the Bema seat.
     
  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You must make a distinction between what happens one day....and what is eternal. You are not differentiating these. The strawman is that YOU can decide what eternal is.
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    First of all, sound doctrine would say to us that all men are sinful before a holy God (Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8, Psalms 51:3, Galatians 3:22).

    Secondly, my "judgment" does not come from my own mind but is based on God's word (Matthew 7:13-14).

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Therefore in proclaiming this I am not being judgmental, as if it were my own judgment that Universalists cannot be saved as long as they retain their opinion; but rather I am stating these things because of the Lord's love in my heart, with the motivation that I don't want anyone trying to enter in through the broad way (because such a path is to destruction) but through the narrow way (that leads to life).

    Now I suppose that a Universalist can be saved if he or she would accept that Jesus is the only way to salvation and enter in thereby through Him because they understand that there is no other way. And I suppose that a person might enter in through Jesus Christ even though they do not see Him and faith in His crucifixion as the only way in. However, understanding that the carnal nature of man rebels against anything that puts down his pride, and that the gospel of Christ does exactly this by saying that you cannot save yourself by your own personal holiness or by what you do; but that the only way in is through a free gift that has been purchased for you by the precious blood of God's only Son; I don't see it happening with anyone who believes that Jesus isn't the only way, entering in through that way and being immune to the temptation of reverting back to the flesh (by trying to earn God's acceptance and favour by their own behaviour).

    Also, the preaching of Universalism is the preaching of a different gospel (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 and Galatians 1:6-9) and therefore in preaching it a man is setting himself up to be accursed unto eternal condemnation that he was marked out for long ago (Jude 1:4).

    Now if one were to actually repent of ministering such a false gospel as the gospel identified as Universalism (the broad way to destruction), God only knows if he can be redeemed. God is not wiling that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9); but preaching a false gospel at the very, very, very least borderlines on that which is unpardonable by the Lord; because people are being deceived by your preaching of it and will go to hell because of you.

    I wouldn't want to have that on my head when being judged by the Lord on the final day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It is not only referred to as eternal but also as everlasting.
     
  13. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what Universalist believe or don't believe...
    I still don't agree that we can go around telling people they are doomed.
    We are not at the End of the Story yet. And it is God who ways the hearts.

    Anyway, I tried to get you to soften your tone. But you are happy with your own posts and obviously don't care how harsh and judgemental you sound to others who read along.

    So..have at it...
     
  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Another strawman is that...loving others and not judging them... is universalism. That's like saying anybody who is not a Republican is a commie or gay. IOW....very partisan...and carnal.

    God so loved the world...not hated the world as so many "believers".

    Who is going to be a witness of God's love?

    I believe that some people....many...will be cast and burned in the lake of fire. These are the wicked.

    A few will reign with Christ...these have let go their lives to walk with Jesus...and like Jesus....these are the saints.

    There are many on whom God will have mercy...people who helped others...were merciful, meek and humble. As Jesus promised God will have mercy on these...unlike so many modern Christians who have not yet learned who Jesus really is...

    Then there are the filthy who teach iniquity and are very poor witnesses of the love of God...but who claim salvation because of their beliefs...yet deny the truth...these will be sent into outer darkness for ever...in nakedness and shame as a witness of what NOT to do. Many are as these religious ones. Many modern believers are presently in this category. We are to repent and return to our first love. Stop judging...and you won't be judged. But continue in religious bigotry....and you will be judged.

    God is NOT religious....the devil is.
     
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  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Some things found in the gospel of Christ do indeed sound harsh and judgmental. The preaching of the Cross is offensive (Galatians 1:10, Galatians 5:11).

    This is not to say that we shouldn't preach the truth just because it sounds harsh, judgmental, or offensive.

    I would rather be accused of being unloving in this life and see many people in heaven as the result of my preaching when I finally get there than be seen as a loving and kind person and be responsible for souls that were lost because I was being wishy-washy and namby-pamby and soft in the way that I presented truths that need to be spoken in such a way as to wake people up, which can sometimes be perceived as rudeness (hence the term, "a rude awakening").
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I wish you understood.

    OK...I'll try... There is another dimension in the Spirit that co-exists with what our sense can determine ...here and now...in a realm called the kingdom of God. THAT realm is eternal....or everlasting. We only enter into eternal things by walking in the Spirit. Otherwise we may have faith but we are still walking according to the flesh. Or...in the power of the flesh....not in eternal life.

    So if we see eternal life through and IN Christ...we can understand the gospel and the bible....not as a guarantee for flesh walkers...but as an invitation into the spiritual life. We are to walk in the power of the Spirit. THAT is eternal life.

    To believe in Jesus is good. But there are no guarantees for people who have a belief....but still walk according to the flesh. If we want to be pleasing to God we should not judge, be humble, be gentle, be merciful. Then we can inherit life at the end ....along with the righteous.

    But most people have been taught that they have the same promises as the saints....but without being holy. Or they have been taught a sinful holiness...which is iniquity.
     
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  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    You said,

    This is contrary to what the scripture teaches about the way into heaven (which is Jesus Christ and Him crucified...John 14:6, 1 Corinthians 2:2).

    Changing your tune now in order to make yourself look better is dishonest.

    What you preach is that people can enter into the kingdom apart from faith in Jesus and His shed blood...admit it!

    This is a false gospel, and in preaching it you are giving people the false assurance that they don't have to enter in through Jesus Christ...and when they fail to do so because they think it isn't needed, you will be held responsible for their condemnation (see also John 3:18).
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    God does indeed justify the ungodly (Romans 4:5), so it is not a false doctrine to say that faith in Jesus secures salvation even if human weakness causes you to fall. See Psalms 37:23-24.

    If anyone truly believes in Jesus they will not walk according to the flesh as a general rule...compare John 11:26 with Romans 8:13.

    Nevertheless the grace of the Lord is there and is a covering for human weakness for those who truly believe in Christ (Romans 4:6-8) and are therefore new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17); the kind who do not as a general rule return to their own vomit or to wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2:22). People who are born again are a different kind of animal...sheep rather than dogs or pigs. As sheep we detest vomit and mud, and will run away from those things with a passion.
     
  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of false....you are making things up that I never said... Ironically you are doing to my posts what you also do to the bible..... make a ton of false assumptions and treat them as facts.

    You have an idee fixe...a one track mind. I am speaking of a host of things...that you jumble together just as you do to the bible. Is it any wonder?
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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