Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts I believe...

[amadeus]

This is why we let the readers decide. We need not argue.

Yes, each person must make up his own mind. God doesn't twist arms and neither should we.

 

[Dave L]

Words of knowledge are not needed? Healings are not needed? Discernment of spirits is not needed?

These are denominational arguments that don't hold water. You say you are not denominational yet all your arguments are typical Baptist.

Let's say this. Scripture does better than what the gifts provided. But you need to know scripture before you can appreciate this.

 

[Dave L]

You don't call something you can understand, "unknown." These were not stupid people, and they had a vocabulary extensive enough to have used a word that correctly described the situation. They called it "Unknown", not "another language they had not previously spoken."

Tongues were unknown to the hearer but not to the speaker. Unless interpreted into the vernacular and the meaning explained.

 

[Dave L]

Another short "flash in the pan" without biblical backup:

Find where they continued without the an apostle to distribute them beyond the two outpourings.
“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18)

 

[Dave L]

Did they really? And you would know this you were there and talked with them or because God personally told you that is was so?

Paul says the tongue speaker edified himself. And that edification is the result of understanding what was said. This is why they interpreted tongues so the whole church could be edified.

 

[Dave L]

In the events of Acts chapter 8 these were already believers, baptized in the name of Jesus yet they were prayed for on a clearly separate occasion to receive the Holy Spirit. This was not on the day of Pentecost.

Cornelius and those in Acts chapter 10 were already believers received the Holy Spirit before Water baptism.

Those in Acts chapter 19 were, already believers, being asked "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed"? A clear definitive separation. They then received the Holy Spirit, spake in tongues and prophesied.

God doesn't change. Too simple.

You cannot hold to your belief without condemning every man and woman that believes God's Holy Spirit baptism and gifts are as much for today as for then. I understand the frustration of Jesus. This is exactly why God came outside of church walls to gather me to Him.

Ezekiel 34:6 KJVS
My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

Ezekiel 34:11-12 KJVS
For thus saith the Lord God ; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. [12] As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Before Jesus saved me I was a wretch. I despaired of life. All I now have I received at the hand of His Holy Spirit.

Mark 8:21 KJVS
And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?


God knows we need the power with the backsliden condition of churches.

Yes, all believers have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. But the Charismatic gifts came only through the hands on an apostle, besides the two outpourings.

 

[Dave L]

Do you really believe that God does not have the whole of His plan under control? Do you not believe what this verse says?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

If a person is really hungry and thirsty for His righteousness, do you believe that they will be filled with that right things. Do you suppose that they are going to misled and jump into the wrong car and take it for a spin? Don't you trust God to know what He is doing even if we do not?

No apostles = no gifts. Scripture does a far better job than the gifts ever could.

 

[amadeus]

I believe "cult" is accepted throughout Christendom as a negative depiction of any group who rejects the Ecumenical Creeds.

You apparently believe in some things that I cannot, even though I may sometimes understand your point of view. I have in various forums over the years posted these words which I copied from a book I read many years ago. Supposedly it was a statement made by Abraham Lincoln's although I am unable to confirm its origin:

"I have never united myself to any church, because I have
found difficulty in giving my assent without mental reservation,
to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine which
characterizes their Articles of Belief and Confessions of Faith.
When any church will inscribe over its altar as its sole qualification for membership the Savior's condensed statement of both Law and Gospel, 'thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and
thy neighbor as thyself' that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul"

While I have belonged to church group over the years, I agree with most of it and when my present connection with a church is ended I probably will be unable to commit myself to another.

 

[Dave L]

You apparently believe in some things that I cannot, even though I may sometimes understand your point of view. I have in various forums over the years posted these words which I copied from a book I read many years ago. Supposedly it was a statement made by Abraham Lincoln's although I am unable to confirm its origin:

"I have never united myself to any church, because I have
found difficulty in giving my assent without mental reservation,
to the long complicated statements of Christian doctrine which
characterizes their Articles of Belief and Confessions of Faith.
When any church will inscribe over its altar as its sole qualification for membership the Savior's condensed statement of both Law and Gospel, 'thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and
thy neighbor as thyself' that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul"

While I have belonged to church group over the years, I agree with most of it and when my present connection with a church is ended I probably will be unable to commit myself to another.

Keep in mind, a false definition of Christ is an idol bearing his name.

 

[amadeus]

No apostles = no gifts. Scripture does a far better job than the gifts ever could.

I won't comment on this at the moment because my answer would probably not be as simple as you statement and I am tired at that moment needing to return rest for a few hours. [At times I am unable to sleep when I should be sleeping and have to make up the difference.]

As you move through the various threads of discussion, if you should read anything of what I post, you may thereby get a better idea of where I am on things. We seem to want to bump heads on more than one thing although each of us is serving God.

Give God the glory!

 

[Frank Lee]

Tongues were unknown to the hearer but not to the speaker. Unless interpreted into the vernacular and the meaning explained.

Departed Gifts? No matter how you translate it, no matter the tongue...

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
   "an irrevocable step"
   synonyms: irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
   peremptory

Romans 11:29 KJVS
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

New International Version Romans 11;29
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable

New Living Translation Romans 11;29
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn

Berean Study Bible Romans 11;29
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Weymouth New Testament, Romans 11;29
For God does not repent of His free gifts nor of His call



Psalm 68:18 KJVS
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them .

In this verse the Lord even made provision for the naysayers.

 

[amadeus]

Paul says the tongue speaker edified himself. And that edification is the result of understanding what was said. This is why they interpreted tongues so the whole church could be edified.

I guess that you have studied this at length, but we most certainly disagree. Too tired to consider or write any answer now. I may or may not come to it as God directs.

 

[Dave L]

Departed Gifts? No matter how you translate it, no matter the tongue...

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

ir·rev·o·ca·ble
əˈrevəkəb(ə)l/
adjective

1. not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.
   "an irrevocable step"
   synonyms: irreversible, unalterable, unchangeable, immutable, final, binding, permanent, carved in stone;
   peremptory

Romans 11:29 KJVS
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

New International Version Romans 11;29
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable

New Living Translation Romans 11;29
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn

Berean Study Bible Romans 11;29
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Weymouth New Testament, Romans 11;29
For God does not repent of His free gifts nor of His call



Psalm 68:18 KJVS
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them .

But if God no longer gives the charismatic gifts, that Paul said would end, the promise still holds true for any gift he gives.

 

[amadeus]

Keep in mind, a false definition of Christ is an idol bearing his name.

Yes, and this relates probably again to what our friend @bbyrd009 often calls Nehushtan.

 

[Frank Lee]

But if God no longer gives the charismatic gifts, that Paul said would end, the promise still holds true for any gift he gives.

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

I'm realizing how denominationally brainwashed you are!

Did I mention this scripture?

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

After I speak the truth given me by the Holy Spirit and you refuse it you are beyond reaching. I answer you no more. You are, set against yourself.

 

[Dave L]

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

I'm realizing how denominationally brainwashed you are!

Did I mention this scripture?

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

Does this passage prove once saved always saved?

 

[Frank Lee]

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

 

[Dave L]

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29

So you believe once saved always saved?

 

[Willie T]

Tongues were unknown to the hearer but not to the speaker. Unless interpreted into the vernacular and the meaning explained.

A little weak. Each of the hearers at Pentecost recognized that other foreigners present there were hearing the sermons in their own known tongue...… but the sounds being made by the speakers were "unknown" to all of them, even the ones speaking them. One voice was not speaking all 15 languages represented by the visitors, yet those visitors each heard in their own, esoteric, native tongues.... at the very same moment. (That is what they expressed such amazement at...…. NOT that the speaker was speaking in their language; that kind of thing would not have been rare, at all.)

 

[Frank Lee]

pi
pī/
noun

1. 1.
   the sixteenth letter of the Greek alphabet ( Π, π ), transliterated as ‘p.’.

Approximately 3.14 when rounded to two decimal places.

1. 2.
   the numerical value of pi.
2. Equal to 3.14159265358979323846... (the digits go on forever without repeating)

By a strange "coincidence" Ecclesiastes 3:14, that I prefer to reference as Ecclesiastes "PI", describes the words of God as an unchangeable constant.


New American Standard Bible
I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB Romans 11:29