You haven't proved the grace you preach is from the Bible. Why do you ask me to? I have no problem doing it. I wonder why you haven't done the same.
Stranger
Getting Grace Right
- Thread starter Episkopos
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You haven't proved the grace you preach is from the Bible. Why do you ask me to? I have no problem doing it. I wonder why you haven't done the same.
Stranger
it is easy to judge as you do...but get your bible out... I have shown from the bible the mercy of God...which you have not known.
I thought we were talking about 'grace'. Why do you now say mercy? As far as grace, I haven't seen you show any of it from the Scripture.
Stranger
Col 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.
IOW not hating or threatening people.
With all due respect, I believe episkopos is rather confused about basics such as grace, imputed righteousness, and sinless perfection in this life.
We need to be clear that God's grace is towards the vilest sinners who obey the Gospel, and even after people are saved and may sin, that grace does not change. The basis of God's grace is (1) His own character and (2) the finished work of Christ. And to all Christians, we see that grace and peace are benedictions from God throughout the epistles, even though some of those Christians are being corrected.
While there is no question that Christians are to show mercy, grace, and love to all, particularly the brethren, grace does not preclude rebuke and reproof, nor does it preclude making righteous judgments. As Christ said "As many as I love I REBUKE AND CHASTEN".
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Dear friend...that is not your call.
You have a very small God....that is sad.
Are you serious?
Broad is the way that leads to destruction, and narrow is the way that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14).
If you are heading down the path that leads to destruction, that is very, very sad in my book.
...
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Actually, that is not true...see Song of Solomon 6:11To you it seems that way because I'm not religious. God is looking for spiritual fruit not religious nuts.
Are you serious?
Broad is the way that leads to destruction, and narrow is the way that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14).
If you are heading down the path that leads to destruction, that is very, very sad in my book.
The way is exceedingly narrow. Only by faith in Jesus Christ. But once we have come that way, we are in an exceedingly large area. (Ps. 18:19) "He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me."
Stranger
"Enoch111, post: 440043, member: 7853"]With all due respect, I believe episkopos is rather confused about basics such as grace, imputed righteousness, and sinless perfection in this life.
Grace: the power of God usward who believe.
imputed righteousness: no such thing. A false doctrine based on a human understanding of grace. They who act by faith...righteousness could be imputed (attributed) to them (but this is not the righteousness of God). God imparts His righteousness to those who enter into Him.
Sinless perfection; A human term that tries to suggest there is a sinful perfection? People don't like any doctrine that doesn't leave room for the flesh.
We need to be clear that God's grace is towards the vilest sinners who obey the Gospel, and even after people are saved and may sin,
Sure.
that grace does not change.
Grace is the power to not sin. So here you don't understand grace. You are thinking that grace is a one time thing. Which it is not. We need NEW grace when we fail the old. God is merciful and renews His mercies...but this idea that grace is some kind of sin absorber...is of the flesh. It's what the Old man wants....not the Lord. So then that position is based on iniquity.
The basis of God's grace is (1) His own character and (2) the finished work of Christ. And to all Christians, we see that grace and peace are benedictions from God throughout the epistles, even though some of those Christians are being corrected.
Sure.
While there is no question that Christians are to show mercy, grace, and love to all, particularly the brethren, grace does not preclude rebuke and reproof, nor does it preclude making righteous judgments. As Christ said "As many as I love I REBUKE AND CHASTEN"
Slightly off as to what grace is (since it isn't understood by you)....we are to do things BY grace and WITH grace. It isn't grace so much that does these things. Sound judgment is by the Spirit. But agree with the tenor or your last statement. But again we are seeing the beginnings of your departure from truth here...
We are to speak the truth IN love. We are to communicate WITH grace. We find that people who are a little off at the beginning....get very far off as you get deeper into the issue. That is what I am seeing with your take on things. You have bought into the half-truths that are taught for doctrines these days. A half-truth kind of starts out sounding right.....until the wheels fall off. Like a wobbly tire at higher speeds.
Grace: the power of God usward who believe.
imputed righteousness: no such thing. A false doctrine based on a human understanding of grace. They who act by faith...righteousness could be imputed (attributed) to them (but this is not the righteousness of God). God imparts His righteousness to those who enter into Him.
Sinless perfection; A human term that tries to suggest there is a sinful perfection? People don't like any doctrine that doesn't leave room for the flesh.
We need to be clear that God's grace is towards the vilest sinners who obey the Gospel, and even after people are saved and may sin,
Sure.
that grace does not change.
Grace is the power to not sin. So here you don't understand grace. You are thinking that grace is a one time thing. Which it is not. We need NEW grace when we fail the old. God is merciful and renews His mercies...but this idea that grace is some kind of sin absorber...is of the flesh. It's what the Old man wants....not the Lord. So then that position is based on iniquity.
The basis of God's grace is (1) His own character and (2) the finished work of Christ. And to all Christians, we see that grace and peace are benedictions from God throughout the epistles, even though some of those Christians are being corrected.
Sure.
While there is no question that Christians are to show mercy, grace, and love to all, particularly the brethren, grace does not preclude rebuke and reproof, nor does it preclude making righteous judgments. As Christ said "As many as I love I REBUKE AND CHASTEN"
Slightly off as to what grace is (since it isn't understood by you)....we are to do things BY grace and WITH grace. It isn't grace so much that does these things. Sound judgment is by the Spirit. But agree with the tenor or your last statement. But again we are seeing the beginnings of your departure from truth here...
We are to speak the truth IN love. We are to communicate WITH grace. We find that people who are a little off at the beginning....get very far off as you get deeper into the issue. That is what I am seeing with your take on things. You have bought into the half-truths that are taught for doctrines these days. A half-truth kind of starts out sounding right.....until the wheels fall off. Like a wobbly tire at higher speeds.
Step one in preparing for grace.
1. Seek God until you receive power from heaven.
Jesus did not send His flock into the world as powerless individuals. He brought them together to experience His grace in order to take over the world.
PS: This is the narrow way as a person must be personally visited and inspected by the living God. FEW will be try this...and persevere to accomplishment.
1. Seek God until you receive power from heaven.
Jesus did not send His flock into the world as powerless individuals. He brought them together to experience His grace in order to take over the world.
PS: This is the narrow way as a person must be personally visited and inspected by the living God. FEW will be try this...and persevere to accomplishment.
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First step in getting grace WRONG...
1. Assume we live in a time of grace where no contact with God is necessary....just believe you have grace already...and you do. Use the bible to try covering your carnal tracks. Hey we all sin anyway...
Author: The Prince of lies (who doesn't want people to be actually reconciled to God....and certainly doesn't want REAL grace (power) to mess with his kingdom)
PS. The author of confusion is always looking for ministers to promote his kind of grace. Even though there are many applicants already...there is always room for more. The way is wide.
1. Assume we live in a time of grace where no contact with God is necessary....just believe you have grace already...and you do. Use the bible to try covering your carnal tracks. Hey we all sin anyway...
Author: The Prince of lies (who doesn't want people to be actually reconciled to God....and certainly doesn't want REAL grace (power) to mess with his kingdom)
PS. The author of confusion is always looking for ministers to promote his kind of grace. Even though there are many applicants already...there is always room for more. The way is wide.
Step 2 in getting grace RIGHT
2. Perseverance. If at first you don't succeed...the race isn't over yet (not until God says so). A fervent seeking of God MOVES Him to respond. A fervent faith MOVES God. Humble yourself and be determined.
God loves a quiet and gentle spirit. While we are waiting for our breakthrough with the Lord practice humility, mercy, and gentleness. Remain teachable and trust in God's character. It is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom. But we must also be very determined. Like the widow who knocked on the door until the judge heard her petition.
2. Perseverance. If at first you don't succeed...the race isn't over yet (not until God says so). A fervent seeking of God MOVES Him to respond. A fervent faith MOVES God. Humble yourself and be determined.
God loves a quiet and gentle spirit. While we are waiting for our breakthrough with the Lord practice humility, mercy, and gentleness. Remain teachable and trust in God's character. It is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom. But we must also be very determined. Like the widow who knocked on the door until the judge heard her petition.
Step 2 in getting grace WRONG
2. Put the emphasis on the "finished work" of the cross. Put all the responsibility on Jesus. Grace makes you not responsible...like a child or mentally incompetent person. Jesus did everything for you....so you don't have to do anything. In fact confront those who are looking for spiritual fruit by saying they are preaching a "gospel of works." Grace means never having to say you're sorry.
Why seek for what you already have? That's ALL there is. Seeking God shows a lack of faith in the "finished work". You will always be a sinner anyway. The only difference between you and any other base sinner...is that you are forgiven because you were smart enough to cover your tracks with Jesus. God loves being used in this way. He'll really do anything for us...He loves us that much. It is His weakness. We are worth it. We can take advantage of this. Just look at the price Jesus paid. Doesn't that tell you how much WE are worth?
PS. Don't be put off by anyone who thinks you have to actually KNOW God. God is unknowable. God just wants you to be happy. He exists....for you! Can I hear an amen?!
2. Put the emphasis on the "finished work" of the cross. Put all the responsibility on Jesus. Grace makes you not responsible...like a child or mentally incompetent person. Jesus did everything for you....so you don't have to do anything. In fact confront those who are looking for spiritual fruit by saying they are preaching a "gospel of works." Grace means never having to say you're sorry.
Why seek for what you already have? That's ALL there is. Seeking God shows a lack of faith in the "finished work". You will always be a sinner anyway. The only difference between you and any other base sinner...is that you are forgiven because you were smart enough to cover your tracks with Jesus. God loves being used in this way. He'll really do anything for us...He loves us that much. It is His weakness. We are worth it. We can take advantage of this. Just look at the price Jesus paid. Doesn't that tell you how much WE are worth?
PS. Don't be put off by anyone who thinks you have to actually KNOW God. God is unknowable. God just wants you to be happy. He exists....for you! Can I hear an amen?!
Romans 4:1-8, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:5-6, Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Titus 3:4-7, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost:
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
.
.
.
Notice that in these verses, the doctrine of imputed righteousness is evident.
Also, the definition of grace, while it includes in the spectrum of what it means "the enabling power of God", has a range of other valid definitions:
1) unmerited favour;
2) getting what we don't deserve (heaven); as opposed to mercy, which is not getting what we do deserve (hell);
3) the enabling power of God
4) God's Riches At Christ's Expense
5) Goodness Rendered As Christ Empowers.
Now I want to focus for a moment on definitions 1), 2), and 4).
These definitions focus on the aspect if grace that represents justification and forgiveness of sins.
In the substitutionary atonement (which is the gospel by which we are saved); God the Father looks at Jesus as He died on the Cross in our place, and sees all of our sin(s) and imperfection(s); and punished it in Him as He took the penalty for our sin(s). Now when He looks at us, He sees the perfect life, blood, and righteousness of Jesus as it is applied to us by imputation through the appropriation of His blood to our sin(s) through faith in God's propitiation.
Now in definitions 3) and 5), we must understand that these have to do with grace as it applies to sanctification; and that this is a separate issue from justification. Once we are forgiven perpetually of all of our sin(s), God begins to do a transforming work in our nature and character.
It is like this: In justification, we are declared righteous by God through faith in Christ's shed blood; and this imputation of righteousness is true and immutable even when we blow it. For God counts righteousness even to the ungodly sinner when he has faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5).
And therefore my identity in Christ as one who has believed on His propitiary work is that I am righteous in Him no matter what: even when I blow it I am righteous before Him.
Now that I have this identity, my best response is to begin to live like I am what God says I am. The fact that I am righteous means that I will do righteous things (1 John 3:7).
So then, sanctification is the result of unconditional justification (of course when I say unconditional, the exception to this is that there is always the condition of faith in Jesus; but other than that there are no conditions).
God also enables me by His grace, in sanctification, to live a holy life before God and men.
However, please note that the reason that God has for this is not salvation; for that is accomplished in justification and the forgiveness of my sin(s). The reason why God sanctifies His people is found in Philemon 1:6. The communication of our faith becomes effectual through the acknowledgement of every good thing that is in us in Christ Jesus.
We do not have to wait to be "fit for heaven' in order to be saved. We will automatically be made fit for heaven when we receive our glorified bodies when we are translated into His kingdom; if we are born again through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Our salvation therefore rests in the forgiveness of our sins through faith in the shed blood of Christ (Romans 4:6-8).
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:5-6, Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Titus 3:4-7, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost:
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
.
.
.
Notice that in these verses, the doctrine of imputed righteousness is evident.
Also, the definition of grace, while it includes in the spectrum of what it means "the enabling power of God", has a range of other valid definitions:
1) unmerited favour;
2) getting what we don't deserve (heaven); as opposed to mercy, which is not getting what we do deserve (hell);
3) the enabling power of God
4) God's Riches At Christ's Expense
5) Goodness Rendered As Christ Empowers.
Now I want to focus for a moment on definitions 1), 2), and 4).
These definitions focus on the aspect if grace that represents justification and forgiveness of sins.
In the substitutionary atonement (which is the gospel by which we are saved); God the Father looks at Jesus as He died on the Cross in our place, and sees all of our sin(s) and imperfection(s); and punished it in Him as He took the penalty for our sin(s). Now when He looks at us, He sees the perfect life, blood, and righteousness of Jesus as it is applied to us by imputation through the appropriation of His blood to our sin(s) through faith in God's propitiation.
Now in definitions 3) and 5), we must understand that these have to do with grace as it applies to sanctification; and that this is a separate issue from justification. Once we are forgiven perpetually of all of our sin(s), God begins to do a transforming work in our nature and character.
It is like this: In justification, we are declared righteous by God through faith in Christ's shed blood; and this imputation of righteousness is true and immutable even when we blow it. For God counts righteousness even to the ungodly sinner when he has faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5).
And therefore my identity in Christ as one who has believed on His propitiary work is that I am righteous in Him no matter what: even when I blow it I am righteous before Him.
Now that I have this identity, my best response is to begin to live like I am what God says I am. The fact that I am righteous means that I will do righteous things (1 John 3:7).
So then, sanctification is the result of unconditional justification (of course when I say unconditional, the exception to this is that there is always the condition of faith in Jesus; but other than that there are no conditions).
God also enables me by His grace, in sanctification, to live a holy life before God and men.
However, please note that the reason that God has for this is not salvation; for that is accomplished in justification and the forgiveness of my sin(s). The reason why God sanctifies His people is found in Philemon 1:6. The communication of our faith becomes effectual through the acknowledgement of every good thing that is in us in Christ Jesus.
We do not have to wait to be "fit for heaven' in order to be saved. We will automatically be made fit for heaven when we receive our glorified bodies when we are translated into His kingdom; if we are born again through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Our salvation therefore rests in the forgiveness of our sins through faith in the shed blood of Christ (Romans 4:6-8).
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No unregenerated person truly seeks after God (Romans 3:11). What people are instead seeking after is eternal life; or eternal pleasure; or deliverance from the condemnation of hell. But God? no one really wants Him.
And if you have Him, it is absolutely true that you do not need to seek Him; because He is in your life and an integral part already of everything that you are and do with your life. It is therefore a situation where you maintain the relationship that already exists (but really He is the One who truly maintains everything).
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