Jesus and Commands

[Episkopos]

I'll leave it to @Episkopos to start a new thread on this in the forum Bible Study, please (so I'll get an alert)

OK I'll start a thread...called "The key of David."

 

[Nancy]

God never made a Covenant with anyone but "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". Are you a partaker of the New Covenant? Then you're a Spiritual Israelite to whom God has written His Laws on your heart, and the Sabbath commandment written on your heart is a sign between you and God that He is the one who sanctifies you..unless you refuse by disobedience to be sanctified by Him.
I don't have to twist anything. Not only are Christians "Spiritual Israelite" partakers of the New Covenant between God and "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" upon whose hearts are written the Sabbath commandment, but instead of Paul telling the Gentiles of Acts 13:44-46 to worship on the "Sunday the Lord's Day", he told them to meet him for worship on the Sabbath. You can read it for yourself.
What puts Jesus after 70 A.D.? Many commentators like Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke and Jamison/Faucett/Brown, along with the Great Reformers of the Protestant Reformation, interpret the 70 Weeks of Daniel as having been fulfilled by CHRIST, NOT ANTICHRIST. Jesus was baptized in 27 A.D., preached for 3 1/2 years until the Cross, and then told the disciples to "go not the way of the Gentiles, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel for another 3 1/2 years. It's is obvious that the great dividing line in history was the stoning of Stephen because it was then the Gospel left Israel and went to the Gentiles.
Wrong, Jesus was referring to the "desolation" that swept over Jerusalem. The ground outside the walls of Jerusalem for several furlongs is called "holy" in Scripture. When the Romans surrounded the city and planted their pagan sun god standards on holy ground that was an abomination, after which the desolation followed.
If you believe those people who today occupy the ancient land of Israel are Israelites, and not we who are "Spiritual Israelites", then you are wrong.
Yes, and guess what? After God in Leviticus 23 finishes announcing the 7 yearly Jewish sabbaths, He wraps up by saying "These are the feasts of the Lord...BESIDES the Sabbaths of the Lord" - which is undeniable evidence that God makes a distinction between the yearly "feasts" sabbaths that are besides "Sabbaths of the Lord" which He wrote with His own finger in stone. We cannot escape this.

No there isn't. That entire sentence in Colossians is one reference to the Mosaic law of ceremonies and sacrifices after another and follows no descending pattern - for instance, the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a seven day feast which began with a yearly "holy day" which was also a "sabbath day" and ended with a "sabbath day", which both sabbaths had nothing to do with God's weekly Sabbaths. The insertion of the Sabbath of the Moral Law written in stone is a violation of hermeneutics, especially when it is clear in Leviticus 23 that the ceremonial feasts are called "sabbaths". It is you who attempt here to place square pegs in round holes.
A convoluted conclusion if I've ever seen one. Forget all of that and just concentrate on verse 9:

"There remaineth therefore a "rest" ("Sabbatismos" which means "the rest of the Sabbath") to the people of God. For he that hath entered into His rest, he hath also ceased from his own works as God did from His."
​

How anyone cannot see that Paul is plainly saying that if a man has entered into the rest of our High Priest and Lord Jesus Christ, he will cease from his work as God ceased from His work. How did God cease from His work? By resting from His work on the seventh day Sabbath. So, what is the man to do who has entered into the rest of Jesus? Yes, cease from his work also on the Sabbath. Anyone who refuses to rest like God rested on the Sabbath doesn't understand a thing about what it means to rest in Jesus.

So , what happens to those Christians/Jews who have no choice BUT to work on Saturdays? Ya know, like a gazillion healthcare workers, bus drivers, cooks etc? Are they to just quit their jobs?

 

[Phoneman777]

Being an Adventist you believe it is the Old Covenant commandments that are written on our hearts. No, the eternal laws of love, that the Ten Commandments are based on, but couldn't fulfill are the laws written on our hearts.



It was their custom to teach on the Sabbaths as that is when the synagogue was full of people. Going to prisons to teach the inmates doesn't make you one of them.



When you don't read Hebrews 4 with a preconceived idea like you are doing, you can plainly see that God's rest is what Paul wants them to enter into. Something the Jews never did. Mind you the Jews had the Sabbath so that is NOT what Paul is referring to, but trusting in our High Priest, Jesus Christ, at the Throne of Grace to receive eternal life. Do you really revere the Sabbath more than Jesus? JESUS is the topic, not the Sabbath. He is the one who gives eternal life, not a day of the week, the foreshadow of eternal rest in Christ.

Maybe this paraphrase will help you.

Living Bible Hebrews 4: 9 So there is a full complete rest still waiting for the people of God. 10 Christ has already entered there. He is resting from his work, just as God did after the creation. 11 Let us do our best to go into that place of rest, too, being careful not to disobey God as the children of Israel did, thus failing to get in.

We are to rest in the finished work of Jesus. And what does only Jesus provide? ETERNAL LIFE. God's rest is eternal life - the 8th day. Salvation is the rest God wants us to enter into. Not once a week, but forever!

The Ten Commandments existed before the Old Covenant. Cain knew killing was wrong, Abraham knew that lying to Pharaoh and King Abilemech was wrong, Rachel knew lying to Laban was wrong, Joseph knew adultery was wrong...why do you keep falsely concluding that the Ten Commandments were rigidly "Old Covenant" institutions? They predate the OC.

It boils down to this: either we're at liberty to ignore or obligated to keep the Ten Commandments. We can't have it both ways. Which is it?

 

[Phoneman777]

The commandments written on the heart of a believer are the eternal laws of God, that the Ten Commandments are loosely based on. Our New Covenant commandments will save us. They are to "believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another. 1 John 3:23.

"The devils believe and tremble". Believing is nothing unless you back it up with action. If you believe you rest in Jesus, then you'll demonstrate that by keeping the Sabbath.

 

[Phoneman777]

"that Sabbath day" refers to the Millennium, patterned after creation week. 6 days/6000 years are appointed to man, and the 7th day/1000 year is the Millennium. And then there is the 8th day which has no end - eternity, which is why we celebrate Sunday because of all it represents.

Barnabas pointed this out brilliantly. Though God kept and preserved His word for end times, this important book would have prevented abortions and this question of keeping the old covenant, Sabbath. God's rest is eternal life.

Barnabas 15:1
Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten
Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And
ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a
pure heart.

Barnabas 15:2
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then
I will bestow My mercy upon them.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

Barnabas 15:6
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands
and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow
the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone
utterly astray.

Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.

cc: @GodsGrace Thought you would be interested.
cc: @BobRyan

"Barnabas" is not part of the inspired Canon. But, I see you regard it, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Phoneman777]

Not True. God made a covenant with Noah for every inhabitant of this planet that he would not cause a global flood again to kill people.

God also has a global salvation covenant that is available to every human being from the time of creation.

Perhaps you are looking for something newer from God. The promises have been the same from the beginning of time and if we do not measure up then the second death is our destiny in th distant future.

I was obviously referring to the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant". God never made the "Old Covenant" or the "New Covenant" with anyone but the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Therefore, if we are going to be a partaker of the New Covenant, we have to become a "spiritual Israelite".

If you can find a verse where God says, "A New Covenant will I make after those days with the Gentiles...I will write My 9 commandments minus the Sabbath in their minds/hearts...", I'll be happy to change my mind about this.

 

[Phoneman777]

So , what happens to those Christians/Jews who have no choice BUT to work on Saturdays? Ya know, like a gazillion healthcare workers, bus drivers, cooks etc? Are they to just quit their jobs?

Jesus healed on the Sabbath - but He didn't saw table legs on it. I was making $10,000/month at Bellsouth in 2006 and lost my job ultimately for refusing to work on Sabbath. Daniel got thrown into the lion's den for refusing to break the First Commandment. The Three Hebrew Worthies were thrown into the fiery furnace for refusing to break the Second Commandment. Naboth refused to sell his land to Ahab, a violation of the Mosaic Law - and was killed for his trouble. Millions of Christians died during the Dark Ages for refusing to acknowledge the "Eucharist" wafer as the actual body of Christ - also a violation of the Second.

And those who refuse to accept the Mark of the Beast commandment will be tortured and killed. The answer is not to do away with God's Laws because we fear the wrath of men...we couldn't even if we wanted to. The answer is get so close to Jesus that we can rejoice, like those in Acts 5:41, if called to suffer for Him.

 

[Nancy]

Jesus healed on the Sabbath - but He didn't saw table legs on it. I was making $10,000/month at Bellsouth in 2006 and lost my job for refusing to work on the Sabbath. Daniel got thrown into the lion's den for refusing to break the First Commandment. The Three Hebrew Worthies were thrown into the fiery furnace for refusing to break the Second Commandment. Naboth refused to sell his land to Ahab, a violation of the Mosaic Law - and was killed for his trouble.
"Eucharist" wafer as the actual body of Christ - also a violation of the Second. And those who refuse to accept the Mark of the Beast commandment will be tortured and killed. The answer is not to do away with God's Laws because we fear the wrath of men...we couldn't even if we wanted to. The answer is get so close to Jesus that we can rejoice, like those in Acts 5:41, if called to suffer for Him.

"Jesus healed on the Sabbath but He didn't saw table legs on it. " - So, where do you draw the line?? Seems to me there were a slew of things one could, or could not do on a Sabbath day. Do you follow that list?

"I was making $10,000/month at Bellsouth in 2006 and lost my job for refusing to work on the Sabbath."
How righteously commendable of you, you now have your reward.
"...the "Eucharist" wafer as the actual body of Christ" You guys still think that, huh. SMH.
"...Mark of the Beast commandment will be tortured and killed." Yes, possibly be-headings and worse. This is a huge reason to daily build our faith and trust in The Lord as NOBODY knows for sure if we will or will not be here for some awful stuff. Seems we have been warned over and over in The Word to be built up in the faith.
You choose Law. I choose the only chance we really have-Grace. And boy does that come with some awesome FREEDOM! Amen! "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" Galatians 5:1

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Ten Commandments existed before the Old Covenant. Cain knew killing was wrong, Abraham knew that lying to Pharaoh and King Abilemech was wrong, Rachel knew lying to Laban was wrong, Joseph knew adultery was wrong...why do you keep falsely concluding that the Ten Commandments were rigidly "Old Covenant" institutions? They predate the OC.

It boils down to this: either we're at liberty to ignore or obligated to keep the Ten Commandments. We can't have it both ways. Which is it?

I have said over and over there are ETERNAL LAWS OF GOD. The Ten Commandments were fashioned like them. It is like the difference between man and God. We are fashioned in the likeness of God, but are not God. Man has a carnal nature and cannot be like God no matter how many rules we have. God has a perfect holy nature. The only way man can be more like God is if God came into Him. That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and why we are not under the law of our carnal nature if we walk after the Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I was obviously referring to the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant". God never made the "Old Covenant" or the "New Covenant" with anyone but the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Therefore, if we are going to be a partaker of the New Covenant, we have to become a "spiritual Israelite".

If you can find a verse where God says, "A New Covenant will I make after those days with the Gentiles...I will write My 9 commandments minus the Sabbath in their minds/hearts...", I'll be happy to change my mind about this.

You are right. However, you still don't believe the New Covenant is in place of the Old Covenant. You're still preaching the Old Covenant.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"Barnabas" is not part of the inspired Canon. But, I see you regard it, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Okay. But it could free you.

 

[Jay Ross]

I was obviously referring to the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant". God never made the "Old Covenant" or the "New Covenant" with anyone but the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Therefore, if we are going to be a partaker of the New Covenant, we have to become a "spiritual Israelite".

If you can find a verse where God says, "A New Covenant will I make after those days with the Gentiles...I will write My 9 commandments minus the Sabbath in their minds/hearts...", I'll be happy to change my mind about this.

Jesus came because of a covenant that predates the Covenants that God entered into with Israel at Mt Sinai. The first covenant that God entered into at Mt. Sinai, the Israelites rebelled against within 40 days while Moses was up on the mountain speaking face to face with God. The second covenant that God entered into with Israel at Mt. Sinai is referred to as the Mosaic Covenant, which had a sunset clause associated with it which ended at the beginning of the Age that Christ was born into.

God in Jer. 31:31-34 speaks of making like new again the first covenant that He made with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai which they had rebelled against, but with a few subtle changes where the "law" will not be written on stone but rather in their hearts. This covenant is best referred to as the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nations and His possession of people among the nations Covenant, and not the Old Covenant as is mistakenly assumed. During the First advent, Israel was still, at their convenience, adhering to the terms of the Mosaic Covenant. So the label of Old and new Covenants does not really apply.

This is what jesus suggested He was doing: -

Matthew_13:52: - 52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things refurbished like new again and yet old from the time of Adam and Eve."

If you want to refer to the Old Covenant, then you probably should be referring the covenant that Jesus was referring to here in this verse in an oblique manner and not to the Mosaic Covenant that was if force during Jesus' first advent..

Shalom

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The second covenant that God entered into with Israel at Mt. Sinai is referred to as the Mosaic Covenant, which had a sunset clause associated with it which ended at the beginning of the Age that Christ was born into.

Do you have a scripture text for that "sunset clause"

 

[brakelite]

Feel free to inform me of anything to the contrary, but it occurs to me when perusing threads of this nature, that so many miss the whole point of the gospel. I'm going to break it down into just a few salient points, and if you disagree with any of them, by all means have at it, but from my perspective, the following simple theme is sufficient to provide ample evidence as to whether the law has any validity to the Christian life.

• Because of sin, which in general terms is transgression against the laws and moral character of our Creator God, our destiny is hopeless, unless a rescue operation was set in place.
• There was such a rescue operation, decided before creation, and set in motion in the garden. We call it the gospel... good news
• To restore mankind to a state whereby he could once again enjoy the company of a holy God, God had to take decicive action. The first step was to deal with the sin problem. First the consequences, and second, the hold that sin had on the minds of all who have partaken of it.
• The first step was taken at Calvary... That dealt with the consequences. The second step was taken with the operation of the holy Spirit on the minds and hearts of sinners. They had to be born again.
• The result of this action, the gospel in other words, was twofold. Those who accepted Christ as Saviour we a. Forgiven, and b. Infused with the power, the love, the very spirit of God himself. The result of this love changed people. It gave them power. Power to love God, and power to love even their own enemies, so long as they continued in the relationship that God himself instigated at Calvary. That love, if given the opportunity to fully develop, resulted in creating a remarkable ,miraculous new being.
• A person who could not only obey all the commandments that before were constantly transgressed and resulted in sin, but actually did so not because of any ability of his own, but by the power of God within. And not only did he discover the power to obey, but he discovered he actually thrilled in obeying. The law ceased to be a burden... It ceased to be an unattainable goal... It became a way of life, a reflection of the life within granted him by faith through grace... Love became what it was always before there was ever a law to explain it... The only way to truly live. Love, in the minds and hearts of those willing to embrace it fully, truly becomes the fulfilling of the law.
• Those who love their neighbour do not lust after his wife. They do not steal his car. They do not lie to him. They don't get angry without a cause. And they know if they do any of those things, that the remedy is not a better obedience, but a better relationship with the one who can and does empower them. Jesus.
• Finally, that same love towards God enables the born again believer to keep not just the last 6 commandments, but also the first 4. On the very same principle a the last 6 were established, so also is his obedience to the first 4. It comes from the Spirit within. It is a fruit of righteousness that grows as a direct result of his relationship with his Maker.
• Thus the sin problem is thoroughly and irrevocably dealt with. The consequences are forever banished through the blood of the Lamb, and the former habitual sinner is no longer the addicted bound helpless hell-bound rebel he once was. He had changed. He had been recreated, born again into the image of Christ his Maker. Fit for the kingdom.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Finally, that same love towards God enables the born again believer to keep not just the last 6 commandments, but also the first 4. On the very same principle a the last 6 were established, so also is his obedience to the first 4. It comes from the Spirit within. It is a fruit of righteousness that grows as a direct result of his relationship with his Maker.

I agree with everything you wrote, I would just like to add to this point, specifically about the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was created at the beginning, and was a foreshadow of entering into God's rest. Hebrews 4. That rest is not a day of the week, but while under a tutor was kept as one until it, itself, was fulfilled in Christ. God's rest we are to enter into is eternal life which only comes through believing on the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

We were raised together with Christ on the 8th day - the 1st day of our eternal life. This is why those with Christ keep as His Day, Sunday. And why His Church started on Sunday also - the true Sabbath of God's rest. And why the early church kept Sunday also, though they preached on Saturday to those gathered together in the synagogue for the purpose of saving the souls of nonbelievers. Sunday was for those who were saved and had already entered into God's eternal rest.

cc: @Phoneman777

 

[Episkopos]

I agree with everything you wrote, I would just like to add to this point, specifically about the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was created at the beginning, and was a foreshadow of entering into God's rest. Hebrews 4. That rest is not a day of the week, but while under a tutor was kept as one until it, itself, was fulfilled in Christ. God's rest we are to enter into is eternal life which only comes through believing on the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

We were raised together with Christ on the 8th day - the 1st day of our eternal life. This is why those with Christ keep as His Day, Sunday. And why His Church started on Sunday also - the true Sabbath of God's rest. And why the early church kept Sunday also, though they preached on Saturday to those gathered together in the synagogue for the purpose of saving the souls of nonbelievers. Sunday was for those who were saved and had already entered into God's eternal rest.

cc: @Phoneman777

Here is some spiritual understanding. :)

 

[bbyrd009]

Sunday was for those who were saved and had already entered into God's eternal rest.

ah, that must be why it took only ten years and several hundred thousand deaths to install

i mean c'mon, you don't think the RCC making it into a law punishable by death helped a little? :)

 

[Episkopos]

ah, that must be why it took only ten years and several hundred thousand deaths to install

i mean c'mon, you don't think the RCC making it into a law punishable by death helped a little? :)

....while this is true..who wanted to make Christianity a state religion?

The problem is that once the spiritual Christians were fed to the lions...the religious ones, who were waiting in the wings....took over and accepted the praises of men. Namely, Constantine.

 

[brakelite]

....while this is true..who wanted to make Christianity a state religion?

The problem is that once the spiritual Christians were fed to the lions...the religious ones, who were waiting in the wings....took over and accepted the praises of men. Namely, Constantine.

You speak as if Rome was the only home to Christians. You folks need to seriously face the fact that the Sabbath was observed by the Christian church outside of Rome for hundreds of years. History reveals that the primary reason Christians began observing Sunday was to dissociate themselves from the Jews who throughout those early centuries were incurring the undying wrath of Rome because of their constant insurrections. The Sabbath identified Jews from non-Jews, and some Christians, not willing to pay the price of fidelity, compromised. Then for a time both days were kept, until the council of Laodicea anathemitised Sabbath keepers. As bbbyd said, persecution sealed it... Not the holy historyhistory... Not scripture... And not any of the apostles. Justification for any change today lies only in the imaginations of those who are in denial of scripture and history.

 

[Episkopos]

You speak as if Rome was the only home to Christians. You folks need to seriously face the fact that the Sabbath was observed by the Christian church outside of Rome for hundreds of years. History reveals that the primary reason Christians began observing Sunday was to dissociate themselves from the Jews who throughout those early centuries were incurring the undying wrath of Rome because of their constant insurrections. The Sabbath identified Jews from non-Jews, and some Christians, not willing to pay the price of fidelity, compromised. Then for a time both days were kept, until the council of Laodicea anathemitised Sabbath keepers. As bbbyd said, persecution sealed it... Not the holy historyhistory... Not scripture... And not any of the apostles. Justification for any change today lies only in the imaginations of those who are in denial of scripture and history.

Jewish believers met with their Gentile brethren AFTER havdalah. They met TOGETHER on the first day of the week.