Jesus and Commands

[Nancy]

Have you looked at the churches of Philadelphia and Laodicea through the parallel with Eliakim and Shebna? (Is. 22)

Shebna was tossed from office as per God because he skimmed/stole the kings stuff. Then God calls Eliakim [his name means God establishes] to take his place. He would be the father of descendants of Jerusalem and the house of Judah. I read he is a "type" of messiah, had the key of David. Is not Philadelphia the most praised by Jesus? and Laodecia the least? They thought they were rich and in need of nothing. Shebna became rich in a lawless way. I dunno...I'm rambling, lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why Enoch111? It was Episkopos.

Ooops.
Sorry @Episkopos ....

Someone should. I've never seen a thread on this and it would be very interesting.

 

[Episkopos]

No I haven't. Go ahead...

At first glance I see doors that no man can shut, etc. What else?

It is akin to David taking the place of king Saul. The church of David and the church of Saul.

It is interesting that the name Shebna means nothing at all in Hebrew...but God showed me a mystery here.

When it says that a peg will be removed from a secure place...that is the Hebrew letter vav.

When you add the vav back into the name "Shebna" ...you get "Shouvou nah"! Which is the "be zealous and repent" (repent now) from the words of Jesus to the Laodiceans.

 

[Phoneman777]

Read what I wrote in #335 when Bob Ryan asked which commandments of the ten do I edit out.

I see you wrote that the Sabbath was a sign of the OC. How so? The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation - says so right there in the commandment itself.

No, you need to study John more carefully. Also Paul. 1 John 3:23 are the commandments John is referring to, not the old covenant, but the NEW. Paul also showed the contrast between the Ten Commandments and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ in Romans 8.

The Bible differentiates between the Ten Commandments which existed before Sinai and will "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalm 111:7-8), and the Mosaic Law which began at Sinai and ceased at the Cross. Even the very PLACEMENT of both of these - the one INSIDE the Ark and the other rolled up on the OUTSIDE of the Ark of the Covenant - tells us that both are not to be regarded the same.

The Sabbath won't be "reinstated"

That's right because it has never been suspended. Christians are to observe it each week, now and forever.

...but will be seen to be observed by the Jews during the last days when Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled

The only problem with that idea is that Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled...BY JESUS.

• Jesus confirmed the NC for 1 week: 3 1/2 yrs in Person and then "was confirmed to us by them that heard Him" (Hebrews 2:3) for another 3 1/2 years until Stephen was stoned and the Gospel went to the Gentiles
• Jesus caused "the sacrifices and oblation to cease" to be of any worth in the sight of God
• By stubborn rebellion, Jews caused the hand of Jesus' protection to be withdrawn from the holy city - desolation ensued

...and the partial blindness of national Israel will be removed, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the Church.

Modern "Israel" (the Khazars) has nothing to do with end time prophecy. If you can show me a single instance where God gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for rebellion without them first crying out to God in repentance and forgiveness, I'd agree with you - you won't find a single one. Has "Israel" ever repented for what they did to Jesus? No, they still call Him "The Great Imposter" and "Son of a Whore".

Colossians 2:16

That verse doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath - it refers to things ceremonial (meats, drinks, new moons, holy days, sabbath days (the yearly Jewish sabbaths of Leviticus 23). You can't lump the weekly Sabbath of the Moral Law of Ten Commandments into a list of items contained in the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices and remain hermeneutically sound.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is akin to David taking the place of king Saul. The church of David and the church of Saul.

It is interesting that the name Shebna means nothing at all in Hebrew...but God showed me a mystery here.

When it says that a peg will be removed from a secure place...that is the Hebrew letter vav.

When you add the vav back into the name "Shebna" ...you get "Shouvou nah"! Which is the "be zealous and repent" (repent now) from the words of Jesus to the Laodiceans.

Interesting. When I saw the word "peg" I wondered if it had to do with a pillar. Revelation 3:12.

 

[Phoneman777]

This doesn't apply to me.
Look where I live.
I don't even have a Protestant church near me.
There is even a Mass at the CC on Saturday afternoon at 6 pm!
Go figure.

I've just recently started to understand your view on the Sabbath being a commandment we might be breaking if it WAS NOT changed by Jesus.
I certainly do not understand all the theology that comes along with this...
I just don't know. You and others that believe as you do make it sound simple...but it's not when you've worshipped on Sunday all your life.
I believe we should worship every day, but that's a cop out.
Jesus DID resurrect on Sunday...this has come to be known as the Lord's Day.

I do find Sabbath worshippers to be very intelligent and united in their stand,,,which is more than I can say for most of Protestantism.

We are a scattered lot...

I grew up a Sunday keeping Baptist. I know all about Sunday. But God's end time church "keeps the commandments of God", so I had to give up my Baptist affiliation.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I see you wrote that the Sabbath was a sign of the OC. How so? The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation - says so right there in the commandment itself.

Exodus 31:13 and17-18. “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you." ... 17 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

That's right because it has never been suspended. Christians are to observe it each week, now and forever.

The Gentile Christians were not given the Sabbath. Paul fought the Judaizers who said the Galatians and Colossians must follow all special days and be circumsized. I know you don't agree, but the word must be twisted to say what you believe.

The only problem with that idea is that Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled...BY JESUS.

• Jesus confirmed the NC for 1 week: 3 1/2 yrs in Person and then "was confirmed to us by them that heard Him" (Hebrews 2:3) for another 3 1/2 years until Stephen was stoned and the Gospel went to the Gentiles
• Jesus caused "the sacrifices and oblation to cease" to be of any worth in the sight of God
• By stubborn rebellion, Jews caused the hand of Jesus' protection to be withdrawn from the holy city - desolation ensued

That puts Jesus AFTER 70 A.D. So, wrong. What scripture backs up your claim that Stephen was stoned 3 1/2 years after Jesus? Again, trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole out of thin air.

Jesus, Himself, referred to Daniel 9:27 as being the Antichrist. Matthew 24:15.

Modern "Israel" (the Khazars) has nothing to do with end time prophecy. If you can show me a single instance where God gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for rebellion without them first crying out to God in repentance and forgiveness, I'd agree with you - you won't find a single one. Has "Israel" ever repented for what they did to Jesus? No, they still call Him "The Great Imposter" and "Son of a Whore".

If you believe God lied to Israel you are wrong. Replacement theology is error.

That verse doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath - it refers to things ceremonial (meats, drinks, new moons, holy days, sabbath days (the yearly Jewish sabbaths of Leviticus 23). You can't lump the weekly Sabbath of the Moral Law of Ten Commandments into a list of items contained in the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices and remain hermeneutically sound.

Leviticus 23 STARTS with the weekly Sabbath.

There is also a Hebrew Semitic pattern in Colossians 2:16: year - month - week. Hebrews 4 refers to the weekly Sabbath in equating it with Jesus being our High Priest before the Throne of Grace. In that chapter isn't it odd that if you were right, the Sabbath would have been referred to as entering into God's rest? It wasn't. The throne of Grace is the conclusion.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I grew up a Sunday keeping Baptist. I know all about Sunday. But God's end time church "keeps the commandments of God", so I had to give up my Baptist affiliation.

Funny, likewise I grew up SDA, but when I found out about our New Covenant, I had to give up the Old Covenant, Exodus 34:28, including its sign, Exodus 31:13.

 

[Phoneman777]

Since the Sabbath is always called the Sabbath is Scripture, the Lord's Day is definitely not the sabbath. And since Christians have overwhelmingly recognized the first day of the week as the Lord's Day since apostolic times, this is patently false.

The Sabbath is not always called such in Scripture. The Lord calls it "My holy day".
Imagine you announce "that's my suitcase", but as you reach for it, another passenger grabs it and says, "Sorry buddy, but there's no tag on here that says "Enoch111's suitcase" so buzz off. Would you accept that? But, that's exactly what you're reasoning. "My holy day" means "the Lord's holy day"...the Sabbath, not Sunday.

Furthermore, Paul makes it crystal clear that the sabbath was A SHADOW and that the reality is Christ Himself. So why would Christ call a shadow the Lord's Day, since Jesus gave that term to John?

That list in Colossians is filled with ceremonial portions of the Mosaic Law which pertains to the Jews. Paul makes it crystal clear that the Jewish sabbaths aka "yearly feasts" of Leviticus 23 - were shadows of Christ. There were no shadows when the Sabbath was made in Genesis because all was still light.

COLOSSIANS 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

That entire list has to do with the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices - not the slightest intimation to the Moral Law God wrote with His own finger in stone.

It is Christ Himself who is the Christian's true Sabbath.

Hebrews 4 says if we are truly we are resting inwardly in Christ, we'll evidence that by resting outwardly each Sabbath: "There remaineth therefore a "rest" ("Sabbatismos") to the people of God". Lamsa's Peshitta correctly renders it "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."

But the 7th day sabbath was merely a shadow.

The 7th day Sabbath was made when all was still light - no shadows. Read the commandment - it says it was made as a memorial to Creation right there in the 4th Commandment.

Therefore the Lord's Day is the day on which Christ rose from the dead -- the first day of the week ("the morrow after the sabbath" applicable to the first fruits).

The 4th Commandment calls the "first day" a day of work, not rest. Sunday became a day of rest by traditions of men, not by the authority of Scripture.

 

[Episkopos]

Interesting. When I saw the word "peg" I wondered if it had to do with a pillar. Revelation 3:12.

Actually a tent peg. I speak more of it in the thread called "AND".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Actually a tent peg. I speak more of it in the thread called "AND".

I saw "AND" so I'll go check. Besides, Grace would like us to not highjack this thread.

 

[Phoneman777]

Exodus 31:13 and17-18. “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you." ... 17 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

God never made a Covenant with anyone but "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". Are you a partaker of the New Covenant? Then you're a Spiritual Israelite to whom God has written His Laws on your heart, and the Sabbath commandment written on your heart is a sign between you and God that He is the one who sanctifies you..unless you refuse by disobedience to be sanctified by Him.

The Gentile Christians were not given the Sabbath. Paul fought the Judaizers who said the Galatians and Colossians must follow all special days and be circumsized. I know you don't agree, but the word must be twisted to say what you believe.

I don't have to twist anything. Not only are Christians "Spiritual Israelite" partakers of the New Covenant between God and "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" upon whose hearts are written the Sabbath commandment, but instead of Paul telling the Gentiles of Acts 13:44-46 to worship on the "Sunday the Lord's Day", he told them to meet him for worship on the Sabbath. You can read it for yourself.

That puts Jesus AFTER 70 A.D. So, wrong. What scripture backs up your claim that Stephen was stoned 3 1/2 years after Jesus? Again, trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole out of thin air.

What puts Jesus after 70 A.D.? Many commentators like Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke and Jamison/Faucett/Brown, along with the Great Reformers of the Protestant Reformation, interpret the 70 Weeks of Daniel as having been fulfilled by CHRIST, NOT ANTICHRIST. Jesus was baptized in 27 A.D., preached for 3 1/2 years until the Cross, and then told the disciples to "go not the way of the Gentiles, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel for another 3 1/2 years. It's is obvious that the great dividing line in history was the stoning of Stephen because it was then the Gospel left Israel and went to the Gentiles.

Jesus, Himself, referred to Daniel 9:27 as being the Antichrist. Matthew 24:15.

Wrong, Jesus was referring to the "desolation" that swept over Jerusalem. The ground outside the walls of Jerusalem for several furlongs is called "holy" in Scripture. When the Romans surrounded the city and planted their pagan sun god standards on holy ground that was an abomination, after which the desolation followed.

If you believe God lied to Israel you are wrong. Replacement theology is error.

If you believe those people who today occupy the ancient land of Israel are Israelites, and not we who are "Spiritual Israelites", then you are wrong.

Leviticus 23 STARTS with the weekly Sabbath.

Yes, and guess what? After God in Leviticus 23 finishes announcing the 7 yearly Jewish sabbaths, He wraps up by saying "These are the feasts of the Lord...BESIDES the Sabbaths of the Lord" - which is undeniable evidence that God makes a distinction between the yearly "feasts" sabbaths that are besides "Sabbaths of the Lord" which He wrote with His own finger in stone. We cannot escape this.

There is also a Hebrew Semitic pattern in Colossians 2:16: year - month - week.

No there isn't. That entire sentence in Colossians is one reference to the Mosaic law of ceremonies and sacrifices after another and follows no descending pattern - for instance, the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a seven day feast which began with a yearly "holy day" which was also a "sabbath day" and ended with a "sabbath day", which both sabbaths had nothing to do with God's weekly Sabbaths. The insertion of the Sabbath of the Moral Law written in stone is a violation of hermeneutics, especially when it is clear in Leviticus 23 that the ceremonial feasts are called "sabbaths". It is you who attempt here to place square pegs in round holes.

Hebrews 4 refers to the weekly Sabbath in equating it with Jesus being our High Priest before the Throne of Grace. In that chapter isn't it odd that if you were right, the Sabbath would have been referred to as entering into God's rest? It wasn't. The throne of Grace is the conclusion.

A convoluted conclusion if I've ever seen one. Forget all of that and just concentrate on verse 9:

"There remaineth therefore a "rest" ("Sabbatismos" which means "the rest of the Sabbath") to the people of God. For he that hath entered into His rest, he hath also ceased from his own works as God did from His."
​

How anyone cannot see that Paul is plainly saying that if a man has entered into the rest of our High Priest and Lord Jesus Christ, he will cease from his work as God ceased from His work. How did God cease from His work? By resting from His work on the seventh day Sabbath. So, what is the man to do who has entered into the rest of Jesus? Yes, cease from his work also on the Sabbath. Anyone who refuses to rest like God rested on the Sabbath doesn't understand a thing about what it means to rest in Jesus.

 

[Helen]

Why does it take some who we've shown the same scriptures to for years and years and they are still not even close to beginning to understand. All they are good at is cutting and pasting the scriptures their denomination teaches them, but without the Father's meaning of them. What is the difference between me and them? I'm no one special that the Holy Spirit should give such understanding to. Except, from that night on, I was on my way to no longer being a brain-washed denominationalist. When I don't understand something, I go to the Source, and the word of God becomes alive!

Great testimony... :)
I believe that some almost choose to be brainwashed by others.
It's easier than the spending time waiting on the Father to open their understanding. The first five years that we were christians we drank in all the teaching that we could get. But after that for the following decades we wanted to know why we believed what we believed. It caused us to be seekers of all that God had to show us.
God feeds the hungry...When a person believes that they have "arrived" they are no longer hungry for the depths of what God has.

Praise God...you were hungry and He fed you. :)

 

[Phoneman777]

Funny, likewise I grew up SDA, but when I found out about our New Covenant, I had to give up the Old Covenant, Exodus 34:28, including its sign, Exodus 31:13.

The New Covenant is God's commandments written on the heart. Can you not see what a colossal contradiction it is to say we are still bound to keep nine of the Ten Commandments, but we are free to forget the only one that begins with the word "Remember"? Especially when God says that for all eternity "all flesh (which includes you and me) shall come and worship before Me" on that same Sabbath day?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

God never made a Covenant with anyone but "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". Are you a partaker of the New Covenant? Then you're a Spiritual Israelite to whom God has written His Laws on your heart, and the Sabbath commandment written on your heart is a sign between you and God that He is the one who sanctifies you..unless you refuse by disobedience to be sanctified by Him.

Being an Adventist you believe it is the Old Covenant commandments that are written on our hearts. No, the eternal laws of love, that the Ten Commandments are based on, but couldn't fulfill are the laws written on our hearts.

I don't have to twist anything. Not only are Christians "Spiritual Israelite" partakers of the New Covenant between God and "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" upon whose hearts are written the Sabbath commandment, but instead of Paul telling the Gentiles of Acts 13:44-46 to worship on the "Sunday the Lord's Day", he told them to meet him for worship on the Sabbath. You can read it for yourself.

It was their custom to teach on the Sabbaths as that is when the synagogue was full of people. Going to prisons to teach the inmates doesn't make you one of them.

A convoluted conclusion if I've ever seen one. Forget all of that and just concentrate on verse 9:
"There remaineth therefore a "rest" ("Sabbatismos" which means "the rest of the Sabbath") to the people of God. For he that hath entered into His rest, he hath also ceased from his own works as God did from His."
How anyone cannot see that Paul is plainly saying that if a man has entered into the rest of our High Priest and Lord Jesus Christ, he will cease from his work as God ceased from His work. How did God cease from His work? By resting from His work on the seventh day Sabbath. So, what is the man to do who has entered into the rest of Jesus? Yes, cease from his work also on the Sabbath. Anyone who refuses to rest like God rested on the Sabbath doesn't understand a thing about what it means to rest in Jesus.

When you don't read Hebrews 4 with a preconceived idea like you are doing, you can plainly see that God's rest is what Paul wants them to enter into. Something the Jews never did. Mind you the Jews had the Sabbath so that is NOT what Paul is referring to, but trusting in our High Priest, Jesus Christ, at the Throne of Grace to receive eternal life. Do you really revere the Sabbath more than Jesus? JESUS is the topic, not the Sabbath. He is the one who gives eternal life, not a day of the week, the foreshadow of eternal rest in Christ.

Maybe this paraphrase will help you.

Living Bible Hebrews 4: 9 So there is a full complete rest still waiting for the people of God. 10 Christ has already entered there. He is resting from his work, just as God did after the creation. 11 Let us do our best to go into that place of rest, too, being careful not to disobey God as the children of Israel did, thus failing to get in.

We are to rest in the finished work of Jesus. And what does only Jesus provide? ETERNAL LIFE. God's rest is eternal life - the 8th day. Salvation is the rest God wants us to enter into. Not once a week, but forever!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The New Covenant is God's commandments written on the heart. Can you not see what a colossal contradiction it is to say we are still bound to keep nine of the Ten Commandments, but we are free to forget the only one that begins with the word "Remember"? Especially when God says that for all eternity "all flesh (which includes you and me) shall come and worship before Me" on that same Sabbath day?

The commandments written on the heart of a believer are the eternal laws of God, that the Ten Commandments are loosely based on. Our New Covenant commandments will save us. They are to "believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another. 1 John 3:23.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Especially when God says that for all eternity "all flesh (which includes you and me) shall come and worship before Me" on that same Sabbath day?

"that Sabbath day" refers to the Millennium, patterned after creation week. 6 days/6000 years are appointed to man, and the 7th day/1000 year is the Millennium. And then there is the 8th day which has no end - eternity, which is why we celebrate Sunday because of all it represents.

Barnabas pointed this out brilliantly. Though God kept and preserved His word for end times, this important book would have prevented abortions and this question of keeping the old covenant, Sabbath. God's rest is eternal life.

Barnabas 15:1
Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten
Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And
ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a
pure heart.

Barnabas 15:2
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then
I will bestow My mercy upon them.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

Barnabas 15:6
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands
and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow
the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone
utterly astray.

Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.

cc: @GodsGrace Thought you would be interested.
cc: @BobRyan

 

[Jay Ross]

God never made a Covenant with anyone but "the house of Israel and the house of Judah".

Not True. God made a covenant with Noah for every inhabitant of this planet that he would not cause a global flood again to kill people.

God also has a global salvation covenant that is available to every human being from the time of creation.

Perhaps you are looking for something newer from God. The promises have been the same from the beginning of time and if we do not measure up then the second death is our destiny in th distant future.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not True. God made a covenant with Noah for every inhabitant of this planet that he would not cause a global flood again to kill people.

God also has a global salvation covenant that is available to every human being from the time of creation.

Perhaps you are looking for something newer from God. The promises have been the same from the beginning of time and if we do not measure up then the second death is our destiny in th distant future.

The above is true.
Even though the covenants were made with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, etc. we do see a progression in them.

God did have a global plan...He intended to reveal Himself to the Hebrews but had in mind from the beginning that all mankind would be included.

At the time of Abraham and during the Abrahamic Covenant, if an outsider was to be received within the community he would have had to be circumcised.

Whoever wanted to be a part of the community had to adhere to their rules.
Persons were saved even at the time of Moses...they had to adhere to God's commandments, as those before had to adhere to the Natural Law of God.

In the New Covenant, we have to be IN IT, to be saved.

All of the above can be referrenced easily just by Romans 1:19-20

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ooops.
Sorry @Episkopos ....

Someone should. I've never seen a thread on this and it would be very interesting.

I'll leave it to @Episkopos to start a new thread on this in the forum Bible Study, please (so I'll get an alert)