Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

[amadeus]

You state: Should you be insulting people because they do not seem to understand or agree with your position of things or what you consider the most important things. Perhaps it is you who cannot see or understand their connection with God... even though you apparently believe that you can.

In Reply, it was never my intention to insult anyone, and if in so doing I apologize, nevertheless we have a responsibility as the Lord’s representatives.

“The Apostle Paul was a plain uncompromising teacher. When he knew he had the truth, he spoke it with confidence, and boldly declared that everything contrary to it was false doctrine; and he taught his disciples that it was not only their privilege, but likewise their duty also, to be established in the faith and to know, on the evidence of God's Word, why they believed, and to be able to give to every man that inquired for it a reason for the hope that was in them.

Unfortunately there is among Christians today a great lack of established faith on any point of doctrine. They say, "I think," "I hope," or "Perhaps it may be so, but this is only my opinion, and it may be right or it may be wrong” or “I have charity, however, for your opposing opinion, and for every man's opinion; for who knows which is right? What is truth? I'm sure I cannot say; but, nevertheless, I have great faith and charity (?)” “Nobody knows”, “I shake hands with everybody and call him brother if he claims to be a Christian, no matter what he believes and teaches. In Christian love I bid them all Godspeed and pray for the success of all their teachings, no matter how antagonistic they may be to each other or to the Scriptures as I read them."

All this passes among Christians generally for large-hearted benevolence and personal humility, while in fact it is an ignoble, a compromising spirit that is unwilling to forego the friendship of those who oppose the Lord by opposing the truth; and which would rather see the truth suffer, and those weak in the faith stumbled, than that they should bear the reproach of Christ.

Sorry but we cannot do that, it is our duty to point out error where we see it, and to help those weak (unlearned) in faith. “You shall speak my words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse…” Ezek 2:7

You must I suppose preach or teach what you accept as truth. I don't argue against someone doing that. Neither do I consider it always to be wishy washiness to hold to a reasonable doubt about even the strongest doctrines held. A person who never allows for the possibility of his own errors may block even God from helping that person to grow.

 

[bbyrd009]

We're talking about the first principle doctrines which any true Christian should become "established in" before proceeding on to the "deep things" of the word of God, the "meat".

If you don't believe that one should be established in these basic truths then you need to take it up with the Apostle Paul because he seems to think otherwise.

well pls understand that i did not say that, imo getting est'd in basic truths is a great idea Harvest, i do hope you will do so really soon ok, bc i love you a lot. Now, see what i mean?

 

[bbyrd009]

(for example, they say they don't believe in eternal torment as the wages of sin), and then later in another post they contradict what they said (stating they think eternal torment may be a possibility). Which is it, what do they believe?

i did not see any of this in your lecture up there at all, sorry

 

[amadeus]

You state: Even if you were correct in saying that most here are not established in the truth, is it appropriate for you to presume to point your finger in accusation at a sister who has shown so much love for people?

In Reply, I was not making any accusations as you imply, I was merely pointing out a self-evident fact that our sister lacked a proper understanding of the subject. Would you have me leave her in ignorance an error simply so as not to hurt her feelings? If she is a mature enough Christian she should have no trouble with someone attempting to do her a kindness in helping her to better understand. Is it not written, “All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction… that the man (or woman) of God may be perfect (thoroughly complete).” 2 Tim 3:17

What about others who were reading the post some who were possibly looking for better clarity upon the subject should we keep silent for the sake of peace and allow these to lose an opportunity to receive the truth?

Again it is for you the truth. We all believe we are correct or we would not remain where we are. Likely some of us are error in a few things or even in many things. The one who knows all that God has for him to know is perhaps the only one that can always speak of facts rather is the beliefs or opinions. This is my opinion.

 

[amadeus]

You state: We are not all expected by God to be Bible experts, but we are expected to have the charity…”

In Reply, God knows we are not all experts in the scriptures this is precisely why he makes us dependent upon one another. Some have more knowledge in one area while others more in another (it depends on what subjects they have made their priorities), regardless of which those who are strong in the faith, those who have a greater understanding are to bear up the weak (those less knowledgeable). Does not love prompt us to aid our brethren when we see the need?

Teach what you know and what your believe that you know. But if you press too hard regarding something on which someone disagrees with you should remember that sometimes the other guy may be right and sometimes you may be wrong. Don't tell me that you have never changed your beliefs on anything since you first believed in God!

 

[amadeus]

You state: The "likes" people post quite often have little or nothing to do with agreeing with what is posted. Sometimes we like the heart of the person as displayed by his spirit or attitude even though the words may express something with which we disagree. We should be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions from those "likes".

In Reply, exactly, better to not “like” someone’s post regardless of how genuine their attitude may be or whether or not they are a close friend then to give the false impression that you condone that which you know to be contrary to the scriptures. Bear in mind that there may be others who respect your opinion and they might get the wrong idea imagining you approve of what was stated even though you do not.

Solutions on this "like" thing could be to expand it or eliminate it altogether. The point is since the meaning a like or the lack thereof can be vague, we should be slow to draw definite conclusions based on them in the plus or minus direction.

 

[amadeus]

You state: As to the best way to come to the "truth" would you not say rather that the best way to come to know the "truth" which Jesus is by immersing yourself in the Holy Spirit and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit in all things?

In Reply, the problem with this is that many mistakenly imagine that they are following the leading's of the Holy Spirit when in fact what they are actually following are their “feelings” their “conscience”. If our conscience were a sufficient guide we would have no need of the scriptures, thus the Lord has provided the written testimony that we might look to it for guidance and understanding. The work of the Holy Spirit is not to miraculously put knowledge in our heads, but rather to lead or guide us to the truth by means of the holy scriptures.

I do not mean a person should never read or study or listen to someone else's sermon along with doing those things should be the immersion through prayer, worship and simply listening. A good Bible student who has no connection with God is likely to come up short.

 

[bbyrd009]

2he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought

 

[Helen]

What you call facts I would simply call opinions or beliefs.

I SOooo agree. Well said.
Some posts on this Site would read much better ( and less arrogant ) if the poster humbly wrote " IMHO " or "My two cents"...but so many as you say..write is if what they believe and their personal interpretation is fact.! Which leaves no room for discussion of beliefs.
( and often leads to the silly arguments )

 

[bbyrd009]

I SOooo agree. Well said.
Some posts on this Site would read much better ( and less arrogant ) if the poster humbly wrote " IMHO " or "My two cents"...but so many as you say..write is if what they believe and their personal interpretation is fact.! Which leaves no room for discussion of beliefs.
( and often leads to the silly arguments )

and what do we do? wise up the marks!
lol

 

[amadeus]

You state: Without the Holy Spirit who can understand what is written in the scriptures? Can an Einstein who leans on his own brain power alone to search for truth surpass an illiterate person who cannot even read the Bible, but who prays without ceasing and rejoices in the Lord always?

In Reply, as it is written, the natural man comprehends not the things of the spirit that being said there are many individuals who pray without ceasing and rejoice in what little they know of the Lord, but if they have not been called (“for no man takes this honor unto himself save he who is called by God”, Heb 5:4), they are still but natural men this despite all their professions of faith.

It is unfortunate that the professed church blindly following the teachings of the blind guides continues to teach that a mere professing of faith is all that is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, but alas this is not so there’s more to it. One cannot rely on one or two scriptures which they imagine to teach the Holy Spirit is given to all believers immediately following a profession of faith, but rather should consult the “whole counsel of the word of God” to determine what is necessary.

Think about it for a moment, if all that was necessary was a mere professing of faith in Christ, then that would imply that even the “Tares” are spirit begotten as they too profess faith in Christ even though in truth they are only imitation wheat nominal Christians.

It is unlikely that God would call an individual who was completely illiterate (I’m speaking here of one who has a disability in which it is impossible for them to comprehend the scriptures or for that matter any reading material) such would have no ability to grow both in the graces and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus and thus would not be able to properly run for the prize of the high calling, of course this would in no way exclude them from benefiting from the restitution blessings of the earthly phase of the kingdom.

God will use what He has already given to a man to work through that man. Every man, be he intelligent and well educated or of below average intelligence and illiterate, will be judged according to what he has done with what has been given.

God indeed provides ministers who teach others but each person is still responsible to God for his own stewardship. The only way a person can certain that he is not being led into a ditch is communicate with God for himself. Every person who is ultimately saved has been called by God even if he was not called to be a teacher,

Perhaps we do not disagree on many points. It would seem not. But even the person who is elevated to great heights by God cannot ever presumed too much about his own abilities or his own knowledge or his own accomplishments.

Just one more thing here. Many years ago I attended Spanish speaking services periodically with my best friend who was born and grew up in Mexico. At one such service a brother from a country in Central America stood up and gave a remarkable testimony about his conversion to God and his continuing walk with God. The man spoke only Spanish and had always been completely illiterate in his own language. He of course had never read a Bible, yet now he was ministering to people and to me edifying the and me in this Way that people call Christianity. I had my college degree and I spoke and wrote fluently in his language. I was reading the Bible daily in three languages, but according to my ears "Never man spake like this man." He had the anointing of God without man's education. I had the education but at that time I was like Apostle Paul before he met the Lord on the road to Damascus.

 

[amadeus]

You state: Maybe the best way to proceed is to gradually increase our conversation [prayer] with God "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day as well as increasing our rejoicing in Him "here a little and there a little" from moment to moment and from day to day.

In Reply, we by no means would detract from the importance of a good prayer life, seeking the Lord’s guidance and counsel in prayer not only helps to strengthen our dependence and faith in Him in our studies but likewise in all the affairs of life.

Studying my friend is as I see it to be done in obedience... not in order to find truth. Only God gives the increase, not diligent study. If we do indeed encounter truth while studying, should it not be because we were obedient to God, rather than because we have been good students?

If everyone studied because the Holy Spirit was leading them instead of to find truth [with the Holy Spirit supposedly in the background], there would not be hundreds or thousands of denominations proclaiming conflicting truths based upon the same scriptures.

How often do you suppose men have led the way through the Bible with their logical minds while claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit?

How is it the verse reads?

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" II Tim 2:15

It does not read "study to find the truth"?

So studying with the wrong purpose or attitude or spirit men get weary and wonder why. The "why" is because not by the Holy Spirit, Solomon's words apply to them!


"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. " Ecc 12:12

 

[amadeus]

@Harvest 1874

You state: A lot of study even of the scriptures without the leading of the Holy Spirit is what? "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

In Reply, if you are not begotten of the spirit it would benefit you little as your ability to understand would be limited to the natural man’s sphere of reasoning, and as God is spirit so too his word (for the most part).

In contrast if you are begotten how could you study the scriptures without the Holy
Spirits leading's? Can one turn the Holy Spirit off while studying God’s word?

We always are able to walk in our own spirit instead of being led by the Holy Spirit. This is why Apostle Paul warns:
"Quench not the Spirit." Thess 5:19

Because people who have the Holy Spirit are able to quench they are able to be believers in the One true God and disagree. It ought not to be but it is.

Nevertheless to gain proficiency in the Word of God requires commitment, that is, it takes both time and effort to study the truth. Even the wise man realized that study cost something, saying "much study is a weariness of the flesh." (Eccl 12:12) The question presents itself--How weary are we willing to become to know the doctrine, the truth?

Your logic and your way, not God's

 

[amadeus]

You state: Some people may do as you say (“follow the crowd”), but you should be careful about throwing everyone here or most people here or even any single person from this forum into that pot without knowing each one as God knows each one.

In Reply: this was a general statement not directed at any one individual here on this forum, but nevertheless it is still a fact, many are willing to sacrifice their beliefs perhaps not fully but to a certain extent if it allows them to be counted in among the accepted crowd. This is what orthodoxy is all about.

OK

 

[amadeus]

imo if you find yourself talking to someone who says they are established in the truth then you better run

Run, yes, perhaps. Especially since I had to switch computers. On the desk top I typed and corrected fast. On this one when I try the same thing it makes a mess.. But on the truth, even if a person is in a large measure correct, when there is little or no give I quickly tire and want to quit the course.

 

[amadeus]

I SOooo agree. Well said.
Some posts on this Site would read much better ( and less arrogant ) if the poster humbly wrote " IMHO " or "My two cents"...but so many as you say..write is if what they believe and their personal interpretation is fact.! Which leaves no room for discussion of beliefs.
( and often leads to the silly arguments )

Kind of reminds me of our old friend twinc. A long time ago under repeated urgings he got the idea and began doing just what you suggest here. He simply added that imho to many of his very difficult posts. It did not necessarily simplify them, but at least it showed he had a little bit of give in him.

 

[bbyrd009]

Kind of reminds me of our old friend twinc. A long time ago under repeated urgings he got the idea and began doing just what you suggest here. He simply added that imho to many of his very difficult posts. It did not necessarily simplify them, but at least it showed he had a little bit of give in him.

it showed y'all wised up a mark is all imo lol
his comments @ "Muslims in the twinc" make that pretty clear i guess

 

[Helen]

“liking” i.e. agreeing with someone else statement, which completely contradicts what they had previous said. This individual is not “established in the truth” and needs to return to a study of the first principle doctrines that they might be properly instructed.

One member once jumped on me saying- " You don't even understand what that person was saying...I know you don't even agree with them, why are you "liking" his post?"

I explained to her that I use the "like" for many different reasons.
1) obviously because I agree with what the person wrote.
2) I appreciate the response , even if the person disagreed with me but wrote a polite rebuttal... ...
3) I often "like" a post if the response , ( probably to someone else not me) makes me smile or laugh...
( It used to happen a lot...but these days not so much...people are now to far too busy proving themselves 'right' and the other person wrong..)
4) I also use a "like" to show someone that I read their post...but I have nothing new to add or respond with.

I sometimes wish that there was an " dislike attitude " button to click.
This Forum Site needs it!!!!

 

[Phoneman777]

Although I agree with your over all thought concerning the soul, the statement above makes no sense at all.

Perhaps you didn't quite state the matter as clearly as you wished.

It was the Father who resurrected our Lord, Jesus didn't resurrect himself, he couldn't he was dead, actually dead.

Understand clearly it was the man Christ Jesus who gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for all, who pour out his soul even unto death. The man Christ Jesus will never be resurrected again, if he was that would mean the taking back of the ransom sacrifice (a perfect man for a perfect man), the results of which would be that we all would once again come under the divine sentence.

Nor was it the man Christ Jesus, whom the Father resurrected, what He resurrected was the "new creature", the new being which was begotten of the Father at the very moment when our Lord first consecrated himself and was baptized at Jordan.

At his resurrection he became the first born of the new creation.

Without presuming to explain the inexplicable, suffice it to say that Jesus and the Father are ONE and Jesus says in John 10:18 no man takes His life, but He lays it down and takes it up again.

 

[amadeus]

it showed y'all wised up a mark is all imo lol
his comments @ "Muslims in the twinc" make that pretty clear i guess

Old twinc really had some good points but sometimes it was kind of hard to define them. But then again recently someone here said they could not understand what I was talking about... so who am I to say a word about not understanding dear twinc?