Books Outside the Bible

[BreadOfLife]

The Language of the Gospel

That's great. My TWENTY FOUR scholars to your ONE - and an anti-Catholic, no less . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

That's great. My TWENTY FOUR scholars to your ONE - and an anti-Catholic, no less . . .

You're 24 liberals. Real credibility there.

Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia

In what language was the Book of Matthew written?

https://www.quora.com/What-language-was-the-New-Testament-written-in

https://www.quora.com/Why-was-the-New-Testament-written-in-Greek-rather-than-Aramaic-or-Latin

What language was Matthew originally written in

Matthew 16:18: The Petros-petra Wordplay—Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew? | JerusalemPerspective.com Online

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That's great. My TWENTY FOUR scholars to your ONE - and an anti-Catholic, no less . . .

But my one is right!

 

[BreadOfLife]

So many educated scholars--you mean the ones who agree with your interpretation (uh, I mean, the Catholic Church's).

Here's an educated scholar that disagrees with you--Dr. Thomas McCall, who holds a Th.M. in Old Testament studies and a Th.D. in Semitic languages and Old Testament.

The oldest known manuscripts of Matthew and Mark are in Greek. According to recent scholarship, Greek fragments of these two Gospels have been verified as dating from as early as the 60s A.D. Some scholars have argued that these Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and later translated into Greek. If that is the case, no extant copies or fragments of the Aramaic text have been found. The only evidence we have is that the original text of Matthew and Mark was in Greek.
​

I'm sure I could find an impressive list like you did, but then I don't know of any Protestant sites that have that information all laid out for me. I'll have to see if I can find one....

And AGAIN - you give me ONE and I gave you TWENTY FOUR scholars - ALL Protestant.

The difference is that I gave you PROTESTANT Scholars who agree with the Catholic position on Peter.
YOU give me a single Protestant scholar. No big surprise there . . .

When you can produce a few more - CATHOLIC scholars that disagree with the Catholic position - then come and talk to me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're 24 liberals. Real credibility there.
Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia
In what language was the Book of Matthew written?
https://www.quora.com/What-language-was-the-New-Testament-written-in
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-the-New-Testament-written-in-Greek-rather-than-Aramaic-or-Latin
What language was Matthew originally written in
Matthew 16:18: The Petros-petra Wordplay—Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew? | JerusalemPerspective.com Online

Give me the names of the "liberals" and explain WHY they're liberal and NOT credible.
CAN yo do that?? I didn't think so . . .

MOST of them hold degrees in Theology, Linguistics and Archaeology.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

And AGAIN - you give me ONE and I gave you TWENTY FOUR scholars - ALL Protestant.

The difference is that I gave you PROTESTANT Scholars who agree with the Catholic position on Peter.
YOU give me a single Protestant scholar. No big surprise there . . .

When you can produce a few more - CATHOLIC scholars that disagree with the Catholic position - then come and talk to me.

What??? Find Catholic scholars who disagree with Catholic dogmas??? If they did disagree, then they wouldn’t be Catholic anymore, would they? They would be excommunicated!

 

[BreadOfLife]

What??? Find Catholic scholars who disagree with Catholic dogmas??? If they did disagree, then they wouldn’t be Catholic anymore, would they? They would be excommunicated!

Can you see my point?
There is NO consensus among Protestants regarding Peter being the Rock of Matt. 16:18 - yet YOU and CoreIssue and other anti-Catholics here are insisting that he is NOT based on the testimonies of a few Protestant scholars.

ALL Catholic scholars and MANY Protestant scholars disagree . . .

 

[Truth]

What??? Find Catholic scholars who disagree with Catholic dogmas??? If they did disagree, then they wouldn’t be Catholic anymore, would they? They would be excommunicated!

EXACTLY! No Future in that!

 

[CoreIssue]

Give me the names of the "liberals" and explain WHY they're liberal and NOT credible.
CAN yo do that?? I didn't think so . . .

MOST of them hold degrees in Theology, Linguistics and Archaeology.

In many fields there are many people with degrees that a complete idiot's. In example, the Clintons.

One example from your list is Donald A. Carson (Baptist). He supports gender neutral so-called bibles.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Can you see my point?
There is NO consensus among Protestants regarding Peter being the Rock of Matt. 16:18 - yet YOU and CoreIssue and other anti-Catholics here are insisting that he is NOT based on the testimonies of a few Protestant scholars.

ALL Catholic scholars and MANY Protestant scholars disagree . . .

How many of those Protestant scholars would agree that the church universal (meaning all Christians) is built on Peter as the first “infallible” pope??? That’s the issue! And how many would agree that the Catholic pope has been given supreme authority over them?

You keep dodging my point about dissenters being excommunicated. Every Catholic WILL march in step or else! If you want to live your life that way, it’s your choice, but I pray that you will find the freedom that Jesus Christ came to give you!

 

[BobRyan]

Canon issued at the IV Lateran Council in 1213 regarding Heretics:
Canon 3:
Procedure and penalties against heretics and their protectors. If those suspected of heresy should neglect to prove themselves innocent, they are excommunicated. If they continue in the excommunication for twelve months they are to be condemned as heretics. Princes are to be admonished to swear that they will banish all whom the Church points out as heretics. This canon mandates that those pointed by the Church as heretics shall be expelled by the secular authorities or they will be excommunicated if failing to do so.

Ummmmm, WHERE do you get “extermination” from “Excommunication”??

exterminate | Definition of exterminate in English by Oxford Dictionaries



verb (used with object), exterminated, exterminating.

1. to get rid of by destroying; destroy totally; extirpate:
to exterminate an enemy; to exterminate insects.

Origin of exterminate
1535-45; < Latin exterminātus, past participle of extermināre to extermine; see -ate1


hence: Jesuit university - Fordham
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

CANON 3
“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”



Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
"16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

Interesting . . .

Not sure where you got this text - nut it is NOT the official text of the document and seems to have been doctored.
HERE is the actual text of Canon 3 from the IV Lateran Council of 1215.
Notice that where YOUR text says "exterminate" - the ACTUAL text says "Expel" or "Expulsion" . . .

1. "Fordham" is a Jesuit univ -- it is "their" translation -- not mine.
2. And neither text is using the English "expulsion" or "exterminate".
3. As I show in my post - Catholic Digest also uses the term "exterminate" to describe actions taken in the dark ages.

These are your own Catholic sources making these statements - you seem to be trying to make "me" the author of your own Catholic documents. They are not mine - they are yours.

And by the way - you are "falling on your sword" as if you have turned "exterminate" into a "good thing" with "drive out" and "expel from your nation".

Imagine dear protestant if the government turned Catholic next month and decided to "expel from the nation" that you live in as if "that is a good thing". Imagine how your "I don't want to be expelled" response - might be met with force. Imagine how "intolerant" such a "we just expelled you and took all of your land, house, etc) action would be. Imagine the pain of the protestants in the dark ages.

They start the famous inquisitions in the 1200's and then gin up "extermination of heretics" in the 1500's

 

[BreadOfLife]

How many of those Protestant scholars would agree that the church universal (meaning all Christians) is built on Peter as the first “infallible” pope??? That’s the issue! And how many would agree that the Catholic pope has been given supreme authority over them?

You keep dodging my point about dissenters being excommunicated. Every Catholic WILL march in step or else! If you want to live your life that way, it’s your choice, but I pray that you will find the freedom that Jesus Christ came to give you!

First of all - Peter's infallibility was NEVER the issue in this debate. It was Peter's PRIMACY over the others and whether he is the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18. Now, YOU want to move the goal posts because you're losing this argument.
Papal Infallibility is a completely different issue - and I would be more than happy to debate that with you another time. HOWEVER - we still haven't finished THIS debate.

As to your last comment in RED - this is complete nonsense.
A person doesn't get "excommunicated" for simple dissension. I think they should - but it's not MY call.

Again, as to the Protestant scholars - the issue isn't about infallibility. It's about the fact that Peter is INDEED the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18. STICK to the topic . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

In many fields there are many people with degrees that a complete idiot's. In example, the Clintons.

One example from your list is Donald A. Carson (Baptist). He supports gender neutral so-called bibles.

I would never call the Clintons "idiots".
"Evil", yes - but not idiots.

I gave you scholarly testimonies about Peter being the Rock from TWENTY FOUR Protestant scholars.
YOU called that ALL a bunch of "liberals" - and all you can point to is D.A. Carson??

SERIOUSLY??

 

[BreadOfLife]

EXACTLY! No Future in that!

WOW - another lie. What a surprise . . .

There are MANY Catholic dissenters who are not excommunicated. They're commonly known as "Cafeteria Catholics".
You guys REALLY need to do your homework before you go around making these sorts of embarrassing claims . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

I would never call the Clintons "idiots".
"Evil", yes - but not idiots.

I gave you scholarly testimonies about Peter being the Rock from TWENTY FOUR Protestant scholars.
YOU called that ALL a bunch of "liberals" - and all you can point to is D.A. Carson??

SERIOUSLY??

Look into the denominations of the others. Very liberal and nonbilical. Supportive of Muslims, LGBTQ and more.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Look into the denominations of the others. Very liberal and nonbilical. Supportive of Muslims, LGBTQ and more.

Uhhh, no - YOU look into them and tell ME why they are "unreliable."
YOU'RE the one who made the asinine charge against them - NOT me . . .

Hasn't anybody ever taught you the basic rules of debating??

 

[Prayer Warrior]

First of all - Peter's infallibility was NEVER the issue in this debate. It was Peter's PRIMACY over the others and whether he is the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18. Now, YOU want to move the goal posts because you're losing this argument.
Papal Infallibility is a completely different issue - and I would be more than happy to debate that with you another time. HOWEVER - we still haven't finished THIS debate.

As to your last comment in RED - this is complete nonsense.
A person doesn't get "excommunicated" for simple dissension. I think they should - but it's not MY call.

Again, as to the Protestant scholars - the issue isn't about infallibility. It's about the fact that Peter is INDEED the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18. STICK to the topic . . .

The losers in this debate are those who base their beliefs on lies. The “infallibility” of the pope IS the issue and is a lie! Are you going to continue to base your belief system on the utterances a very fallible man???

Catholics can be excommunicated for heresy! You confirmed this in one of your own posts in which you quoted a Catholic source. If a Catholic rejects Catholic dogma, would this not be considered heresy and grounds for excommunication?
Of course it would; therefore, you will not find Catholic scholars openly challenging Catholic dogma.

 

[BreadOfLife]

exterminate | Definition of exterminate in English by Oxford Dictionaries
verb (used with object), exterminated, exterminating.

1. to get rid of by destroying; destroy totally; extirpate:
to exterminate an enemy; to exterminate insects.

Origin of exterminate
1535-45; < Latin exterminātus, past participle of extermināre to extermine; see -ate1

hence: Jesuit university - Fordham
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

CANON 3
“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
"16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

1. "Fordham" is a Jesuit univ -- it is "their" translation -- not mine.
2. And neither text is using the English "expulsion" or "exterminate".
3. As I show in my post - Catholic Digest also uses the term "exterminate" to describe actions taken in the dark ages.

These are your own Catholic sources making these statements - you seem to be trying to make "me" the author of your own Catholic documents. They are not mine - they are yours.

And by the way - you are "falling on your sword" as if you have turned "exterminate" into a "good thing" with "drive out" and "expel from your nation".

Imagine dear protestant if the government turned Catholic next month and decided to "expel from the nation" that you live in as if "that is a good thing". Imagine how your "I don't want to be expelled" response - might be met with force. Imagine how "intolerant" such a "we just expelled you and took all of your land, house, etc) action would be. Imagine the pain of the protestants in the dark ages.

They start the famous inquisitions in the 1200's and then gin up "extermination of heretics" in the 1500's

And, as I've already shown you - the language of the original text doesn't say ANYTHING about "killing" or "exterminating" lives. It is rendered as "expel", "banish" or "excommunicate".

As for expelling or excommunicating heretics - this is a BIBLICAL prescription - NOT an "evil Catholic" punishment (Mat. 18:16-17; 1 Cor. 5:11). If YOU have a problem with that - then YOU have a problem with GOD because it's HIS instruction . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

Uhhh, no - YOU look into them and tell ME why they are "unreliable."
YOU'RE the one who made the asinine charge against them - NOT me . . .

Hasn't anybody ever taught you the basic rules of debating??

I have been debating for decades. Even judging debates.

I simply pointed out you provided no reason for anyone to blindly accept your parsed posting.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The losers in this debate are those who base their beliefs on lies. The “infallibility” of the pope IS the issue and is a lie! Are you going to continue to base your belief system on the utterances a very fallible man???

Catholics can be excommunicated for heresy! You confirmed this in one of your own posts in which you quoted a Catholic source. If a Catholic rejects Catholic dogma, would this not be considered heresy and grounds for excommunication?
Of course it would; therefore, you will not find Catholic scholars openly challenging Catholic dogma.

Not sure WHERE you are getting your information - but what started out as a charitable conversation has now become a full-on anti-Catholic assault.

AGAIN - we were NOT discussing infallibility. We were discussing Peter being the "Rock" of Matt. 16:18 - which YOU are trying to derail because you're LOSING this argument. There are MANY people who openly challenge Catholic dogma, doctrine, Tradition, etc. - and are NOT excommunicated. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden come to mind.

Tone down the lies and stick to the facts . . .