"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

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BreadOfLife

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If you are willing to leave your sect for such a shallow reason, I wonder why you stay anyway?

Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), from Salamanca, Spain. Ribera was a brilliant student who specialized in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. He received a doctorate in theology from the University of Salamanca and joined the Jesuit Order in 1570 when he was just 33 years old. This Jesuit scholar capitalized on the incomplete views of the Early Church fathers. In 1590 he published a 500-page commentary on the Apocalypse where he expounded the prophecies of Revelation using the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism.
Ribera assigned the first few chapters of the Apocalypse to ancient Rome, in John’s own time; the rest he restricted to a literal three and a half years reign of an infidel Antichrist, who would bitterly oppose and blaspheme the saints just before the second advent. He taught that Antichrist would be a single individual, who would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, be received by the Jews, pretend to be God, and conquer the world–and all in this brief space of three and onehalf years.

The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (born in the year 37 A. D.), believed that the little horn of Daniel 8 (perhaps also the little horn of Daniel 7, though we are not sure) was Antiochus Epiphanes, a Seleucid ruler who governed from 174 till 163 B. C. In this, Josephus shared the view of the LXX and many other Jewish scholars of his day..
In the second century A. D., an enemy of Christianity whose name was Porphiry, corresponded with Tertullian, one of the early church fathers, trying to persuade him that the little horn was Antiochus Epiphanes.
Luis de Alcazar, Jesuit from Seville, Spain, picked up on the idea of Josephus and the LXX. From 1569 onward he worked on counteracting the Protestant view of the prophecies. He wrote a 900-page commentary on the book of Revelation, titled: Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi [Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse]. The book was published posthumously in 1614.
The main thrust of Alcazar’s book was to relegate the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to the distant past. This system of prophetic interpretation became known as preterism. According to Alcazar, the entire book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first six centuries of the Christian Era. For him, Nero was the predicted Antichrist. By relegating the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to the distant past, Alcazar argued that they could not apply to the Papacy in the 16th century.
If Alcazar’s view was true, then the preaching of the Protestants was gravely wrong. Alcazar established a rival method of interpreting prophecy which removed the incriminating finger from the Papacy and pointed it at Antiochus and Nero!!
I’m NOT willing to leave Christ’s Church. I was showing you the futility of your false argument.

These men didn’t “change” prophecy – or even the meaning of it – and they certainly didn’t invent the idea of Preterism.
Preteristic viewpoints go all the way back to writings of the Early Church Fathers. – more than 1200 years before they were born.

YOU need to stop relying on Wikipedia for all your information and so some REAL scholarly research . . .
 

Marymog

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1 Peter 1:3 New International Version (NIV)
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
OK....I agree that he has given us a new birth through his resurrection.

Soooo does that mean that we SHOULDN'T follow scripture and proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes? Your Scripture cancels out my Scripture???? What's your point?

Do you follow Scripture and proclaim his death until he comes by eating the bread and drinking the cup??? (2nd time I have asked)

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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Re-sacrificing Christ by means of sinful priests (frequently predators) is not proclaiming Christ's death, but making a mockery of it.
Sooooo everyone in your church is sinless???

Curious Mary

BTW....Thou shall not bare false witness.....i.e. frequently predators comment.

If you have children you should know there is a greater chance that a teacher will be a predator than a priest. Are you gonna start ranting about predator teachers now???? probably not since it doesn't fit your anti-Catholic narrative.
 

BreadOfLife

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1)
I agree as well. It is amazing to me how few of us understand that the twin pillars of the Protestant Reformation are "salvation by grace through faith alone - not a pope or priest - and also that the papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy aka "Protestant Historicism". The founding fathers of every single mainline Protestant church had in their charters and statements of faith Historicism as their accepted theology, but but over the years the Jesuit ideas of Futurism and Preterism have replaced Protestant Historicism.
WRONG.
Early Church Fathers like Irenaeus, Tertullian, Melito, Hippplytus, etc. were expounding on preterism centuries earlier

Do your HOMEWORK . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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It's true the Jesuits organized as an "order" BEFORE the Council of Trent aka the "Counter Reformation" convened, but up until that point their work centered around ministry for the sick, the poor, converting Muslims, etc. However, after the Counter Reformation began, the Jesuits "organized" against the cause of the Reformation, as evidenced by such activities as concocting false interpretations of end times prophecy and also a pledge to that which is contained in the Jesuit Oath which is available for anyone to read online, which you will no doubt deny existed and was made up by mean, hateful anti-catholics.

I. Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera concocted "Jesuit Futurism" aka "Futurism" (future one-man Antichrist, 70th week of Daniel ripped from the OT and sent down to the end of time as the "last seven years of tribulation", rebuilt Jewish temple, brokered peace treaty between Arabs/Jews, etc.) which was popularized by Hal Lindsay's "Late Great Planet Earth" and the blockbuster "Left Behind" series by Lahey and Jenkins.

II. Jesuit priest Luis Alcazar
concocted "Jesuit Preterism" aka "Preterism" (basis for the modern Bible saga by Hannigraff, "The Last Disciple" , "The Last Sacrifice" and "The Last Temple") in which Alcazar claimed the Antichrist already appeared on Earth in the first century (probably Nero) - a series which Lahey and Jenkins saw as a betrayal to "the truth" of their own series, not realizing that both were Jesuit deceptions designed to get Protestants to look to the past for Antichrist, the future for Antichrist - ANYWHERE but to Rome where the papal Antichrist to this day sits well established as the Whore of Babylon that she is.

Demanding proof for the three centuries of the totality and universality of Protestant Historicism during the Protestant Reformation is as asinine as demanding proof that your great great grampa's farts stank.

It's simply a matter of history.

Put down that stupid Satanic dead bread, throw out that stupid Satanic catechism book and open up a history book, for goodness' sake.
Yikes – we have another Wikipedia adherent – and NOT a serious student of history.
Why should I be surprised that this drivel came from YOU? As I educated your pal Brakelite - the Early Church Fathers were teaching this stuff over 1200 years BEFORE the Jesuits ever existed, Einstein . . .

And making the statement that ALL Protestant men, women, children, fetuses and zygotes throughout the whole of history profess the Pope to be the Antichrist is JUST as asinine, Einstein.

Get a GRIP . . .
 

Enoch111

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Sooooo everyone in your church is sinless???
That is not the issue. The issue under discussion is the mockery of the sacrifice of Christ through the Catholic Mass.

If Christ has be to sacrificed daily by your Catholic priests, it means that His one sacrifice for sins was not perfect. But the Bible makes it perfectly clear that it was ONE SACRIFICE for sins forever. Never to be repeated.
 

Marymog

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That is not the issue. The issue under discussion is the mockery of the sacrifice of Christ through the Catholic Mass.

If Christ has be to sacrificed daily by your Catholic priests, it means that His one sacrifice for sins was not perfect. But the Bible makes it perfectly clear that it was ONE SACRIFICE for sins forever. Never to be repeated.
Hi,

Let me get this straight. Fulfilling what is written in scripture, For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes is, according to your theory, is a mockery of the Sacrifice of Christ? o_O

The writers of the Didache and the practices of the NT Christians are wrong? Clement of Rome, who was a student of the Apostles, is wrong? Ignatius of Antioch, a student of the Apostle John, is wrong? But you...Enoch111 are right????? o_O

If it is so clear in the bible would you please quote it?

Mary
 
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BreadOfLife

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That is not the issue. The issue under discussion is the mockery of the sacrifice of Christ through the Catholic Mass.

If Christ has be to sacrificed daily by your Catholic priests, it means that His one sacrifice for sins was not perfect. But the Bible makes it perfectly clear that it was ONE SACRIFICE for sins forever. Never to be repeated.
WHO said that He is sacrificed daily??
Why
would you make such a stupid claim??
 
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Marymog

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That is not the issue. The issue under discussion is the mockery of the sacrifice of Christ through the Catholic Mass.

If Christ has be to sacrificed daily by your Catholic priests, it means that His one sacrifice for sins was not perfect. But the Bible makes it perfectly clear that it was ONE SACRIFICE for sins forever. Never to be repeated.
You conveniently DODGED this:

Thou shall not bare false witness.....i.e. frequently predators comment.

If you have children you should know there is a greater chance that a teacher will be a predator than a priest. Are you gonna start ranting about predator teachers now???? probably not since it doesn't fit your anti-Catholic narrative.

Would you care to defend yourself or is your intent to continue to play dodge ball and act like you didn't fib a little bit?

Mary
 

CoreIssue

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OK....I agree that he has given us a new birth through his resurrection.

Soooo does that mean that we SHOULDN'T follow scripture and proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes? Your Scripture cancels out my Scripture???? What's your point?

Do you follow Scripture and proclaim his death until he comes by eating the bread and drinking the cup??? (2nd time I have asked)

Curious Mary
Of course his death is important. Just as his birth. But the others are a dead-end without his resurrection.

The bible dwells on resurrection, that of Christ, the first resurrection and the second resurrection, which is eternal punishment in the Lake.

His death pays for sin. His resurrection gives eternal glorification and life in the New Jerusalem.

The lords table is about resurrection, not death.
 

Marymog

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Of course his death is important. Just as his birth. But the others are a dead-end without his resurrection.

The bible dwells on resurrection, that of Christ, the first resurrection and the second resurrection, which is eternal punishment in the Lake.

His death pays for sin. His resurrection gives eternal glorification and life in the New Jerusalem.

The lords table is about resurrection, not death.
Hi,

Can you explain to me how "The lords table is about resurrection"? The Lords table (The Last Supper) was a preparation for Passover (Matthew 26:17). Passover (in Hebrew, Pesach) is a holiday that commemorates the exodus of the Jews from slavery in Egypt. The word pesach refers to the ancient Passover sacrifice known as the Paschal Lamb. This was to be the Last Supper he was going to have with his Apostles before his DEATH. In Luke 22:15 he talked about his desire to eat with them before he SUFFERED (tortured and killed). In Luke 22:19 during the last supper AT THE LORDS TABLE he says "This is my body given for you". He never said anything at The Lords Table about his body RISING he ONLY talked about death, suffering and sacrifice. Who taught you your theory that The Lords Table is about resurrection???? You should find another teacher of scripture since that person has twisted scripture soooooo badly.

I don't follow your theory: His death AND birth are a dead-end. What does that mean? Without his birth you don't have his death and without his death you can't have resurrection. They compliment each other. Without one you can't have the other two. They are all equal. (actually the birth and death could happen without the resurrection but you could never have the resurrection without the birth and death)


Do you follow Scripture and proclaim his death until he comes by eating the bread and drinking the cup??? (3rd time I have asked)

Mary
 
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CoreIssue

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Hi,

Can you explain to me how "The lords table is about resurrection"? The Lords table (The Last Supper) was a preparation for Passover (Matthew 26:17). Passover (in Hebrew, Pesach) is a holiday that commemorates the exodus of the Jews from slavery in Egypt. The word pesach refers to the ancient Passover sacrifice known as the Paschal Lamb. This was to be the Last Supper he was going to have with his Apostles before his DEATH. In Luke 22:15 he talked about his desire to eat with them before he SUFFERED (tortured and killed). In Luke 22:19 during the last supper AT THE LORDS TABLE he says "This is my body given for you". He never said anything at The Lords Table about his body RISING he ONLY talked about death, suffering and sacrifice. Who taught you your theory that The Lords Table is about resurrection???? You should find another teacher of scripture since that person has twisted scripture soooooo badly.

So, the body of Christ, not the RCC, is not a living body as it shows, but a dead one.

Also the lord's table was given when he was very much alive before the crucifixion, and so how can you say it is about as death?

The bible says life is in living blood.

The holy spirit joins us in his death and then in resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes, not the lords table. He ascended to offer his sacrifice as a resurrected Christ, not a dead one.

Our hope is in his resurrection, not his death.

Catholic still have Christ on the cross. The bible condemns those who put him back on the cross.

Easter is the Catholicised worship of ishtar. Even they worshiped her resurrection, not her death.

I don't follow your theory: His death AND birth are a dead-end. What does that mean? Without his birth you don't have his death and without his death you can't have resurrection. They compliment each other. Without one you can't have the other two. They are all equal. (actually the birth and death could happen without the resurrection but you could never have the resurrection without the birth and death)oh

There's no eternal life in his death or birth. Stop at the cross, there is no salvation, there is no resurrection, there is no eternal.

His resurrection makes it obvious the other two happened.


Do you follow Scripture and proclaim his death until he comes by eating the bread and drinking the cup??? (3rd time I have asked)

It does not proclaim his coming, as in the second coming or for the rapture.

Mary
 

Marymog

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.....the lord's table was given when he was very much alive before the crucifixion, and so how can you say it is about as death?
Hi,

I used scripture to destroy your theory. I showed how AT NO POINT during the last supper at the lords table did Jesus talk about his resurrection. Using scripture, instead of your own theory, show me how the Lords Table has ANYTHING to do with his resurrection.

Patient Mary

PS...If you can't respond using Scripture to support your theory....Please don't waste our time and respond at all.
 

CoreIssue

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Hi,

I used scripture to destroy your theory. I showed how AT NO POINT during the last supper at the lords table did Jesus talk about his resurrection. Using scripture, instead of your own theory, show me how the Lords Table has ANYTHING to do with his resurrection.

Patient Mary

PS...If you can't respond using Scripture to support your theory....Please don't waste our time and respond at all.
That that

The proof is simple. It never says what you claim.

As some put it, is a celebration of his death looking forward to his and our resurrection.

New International Version
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

That is resurrection.
 

epostle

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That that

The proof is simple. It never says what you claim.

As some put it, is a celebration of his death looking forward to his and our resurrection.

New International Version
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

That is resurrection.
You are refuting yourself. Scripture says, "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."
You read it to mean, "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Resurrection." It doesn't say that. It says, "...you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. The whole verse is essentially the gospel.
This verse is recited daily as one of the Eucharist Prayers.

A symbol can proclaim the Lord's death until he comes? What kind of symbol can do that?
 

Marymog

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That that

The proof is simple. It never says what you claim.

As some put it, is a celebration of his death looking forward to his and our resurrection.

New International Version
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

That is resurrection.
Got it....You have no Scripture to back up your statements OR refute mine.

You never used scripture to back up your claim so therefore, using your own logic, Scripture never says what you claim either. ;)

Best wishes...Mary
 

CoreIssue

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You are refuting yourself. Scripture says, "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."
You read it to mean, "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Resurrection." It doesn't say that. It says, "...you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. The whole verse is essentially the gospel.
This verse is recited daily as one of the Eucharist Prayers.

A symbol can proclaim the Lord's death until he comes? What kind of symbol can do that?
No, I mean the death looks forward to his resurrection, that what do you think until he comes means?

And don't quote a catholic too me. It proves nothing.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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You are right. Catholics "dwell on his death". Catholics follow scripture (1 Corinthians 11:26): For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Since somewhere in the world every day we Catholics "eat this bread and drink the cup" (Acts 2:46) we Catholics DO proclaim His death.....Just like scripture says!!! ;)

Why don't you follow scripture?

Tell me friend. When you see an empty cross is it the cross of the thief that went to paradise with Jesus or the other thief that died the same day? When you see a cross with a man on it that has no broken bones, a hole in his side, a crown of thorns and a sign above his head saying "King of the Jews"......who's cross is that? One of the thief's that died with Jesus that day or is it Jesus's cross? An empty cross could be that of one of the two thieves or Jesus cross or any of the thousands of people that the Romans crucified. You pick an empty cross that could have been the cross of any of the thousands killed by the Romans. Catholics choose a cross that is His cross. It's called a crucifix.

To be honest there is nothing wrong with either symbol (cross or crucifix) for as we Catholics know scripture says that He was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification (Romans 4:25) and that Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3).


Bible study Mary
Yes Jesus must always be on a Cross for the understanding of who and what was done, true Christians preach a crucified Jesus, by the Sins of Fools who were fooled into following Satan's powers who did such to one who was totally Sinless for a start.
The Cross is worthless without Jesus on it.
I hated to see just plain Crosses in the Catholic Schools my Children went to, it was indicative of just how pathetic the schools are with most of the children who were not even Christians let alone Catholic.

I seen an old Vampire movie of late and the Cross came out and the Vampire had a shock horror moment and took off, well I would think if such was real the Vampire would not be dithered by the cross as all, but with Jesus on it, such a one knowing it self was the living dead would know that this Cross with Jesus on it was the God of the Living and not the Dead. now that would shock such a one who is a Vampire because they would see it as there only threat to there existence that can shed a light on them for what they truly are.

Now as for Vampires they are real the do exist but not as the movies portray them with fangs etc but there is such a one called Nosferatu that means the living dead- possessed by Satan, having no Soul, doing the works of such and there ends is to destroy peoples Souls, now that is abundantly clear to one who is Born Again, because one can clearly see the works of such at hand, such Satanic works are manifest everywhere nowadays they are draining the life blood out of there victims, so that people are numb to evil or blinded to such, just look at how people are now just sitting back content to let 8 month abortions go without any regard at all, not to mention such being looked up to in doing so, as an empowerment with a new age of self righteous ego driven power given to such degenerates. where does such insane madness end, well I will point out that that's just the beginning of the depravity, such just does not stop there, this just opens the door, next is you are too old or you can't work or there are too many people in the world, so your number came up in something like a lotto or drafted and your on your way to the gas chambers etc and people will be numb to that as well, because they do not have a soul.
Socialism always destroys people just as Marxism does, they all have a history of being the greats murders in history because such is of what Jesus said, that they are from there father of lies and were murders from the beginning. they steal peoples Souls they corrupt Children not to mention man and work to encourage Sodomites. yes there are Vampires that wish to devour your life blood so to speak and turn you into just a number of the State were you and your name is of no regard.
 

Phoneman777

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Yikes – we have another Wikipedia adherent – and NOT a serious student of history.
Why should I be surprised that this drivel came from YOU? As I educated your pal Brakelite - the Early Church Fathers were teaching this stuff over 1200 years BEFORE the Jesuits ever existed, Einstein . . .

And making the statement that ALL Protestant men, women, children, fetuses and zygotes throughout the whole of history profess the Pope to be the Antichrist is JUST as asinine, Einstein.

Get a GRIP . . .
As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and no evidence to back up your nonsense. Put down the satanic dead bread and catechisms and discover the Early Church Fathers followed what the Protestants taught, not what the Antichrist's Jesuits taught:
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Hippolytus, 3rd century (comment on the four beasts of Daniel 7):

”The golden head of the (Daniel 2) image is identical with the lioness, by which the Babylonians were represented; the shoulders and the arms of silver are the same with the bear, by which the Persians and Medes are meant; the belly and thighs of brass are the leopard, by which the Greeks who ruled from Alexander onwards are intended; the legs of iron are the dreadful and terrible beast, by which the Romans who hold the empire now are meant; the toes of clay and iron are the ten horns which are to be; the one other little horn springing up in their (the ten horns) midst is the antichrist ; the stone that smites the image and breaks it in pieces, and that filled the whole earth, is Christ, who comes from heaven and brings judgment on the world.”

Dead Bread, it is Protestant Historicism, not the lies of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, which teaches that the prophetic elements of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are representative of the same kingdoms.
______________________________________________________________
Irenasus, 2nd century (“Against Heresies,” chap, xxvi.):
"John, in the Apocalypse, . . . teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel.”

Dead Bread, it is Protestant Historicism, not the lies of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, which teaches the Ten Horns of Daniel and Revelation are the same.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Victorinus, 3rd century (claims in his commentary on The Apocalypse (Revelation) of John, the EARLIEST commentary on the book of Revelation as a whole):

  • The White horse and the First Seal describe the same thing: the Gospel going forth in victory.
  • The woman of Revelation 12 is "the ancient church of the fathers, prophets, and saints and apostles."
Dead Bread, it is Protestant Historicism, not the lies of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, which teaches that the 7 Churches, 7 Seals, and 7 Trumpets chronicle the same time periods and that the woman of Revelation 12 is God's people, not sinner Mary.
___________________________________________________________________________________________


Origen, 3rd century ("Against Celsus", bk. vi., chap. xlvi.):
After quoting nearly the whole of Paul’s prophecy about the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians, which he interprets of the antichrist, he says : “Paul speaks of him who is called antichrist, describing, though with a certain reserve, both the manner and time and cause of his coming. . . . The prophecy also regarding antichrist is stated in the book of Daniel, and is fitted to make an intelligent and candid reader admire the words as truly Divine and prophetic ; for in them are mentioned the things relating to the coming kingdom, beginning with the times of Daniel, and continuing to the destruction of the world.”

Jerome, 4th century (commentary on the Book of Daniel, vii):
"...it is the man of sin, the son of perdition, who dares to sit in the temple of God, making himself as God.”

Dead Bread, it is Protestant Historicism, not the lies of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, which teaches the Little Horn of Daniel, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Beast of Revelation 13 are one in the same power: Antichrist.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Tertullian, 2nd century (commenting on 2 Thessalonians 2):

"'Now ye know what detaineth that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity doth already work ; only he who now hinders must hinder until he be taken out of the way.'
"What obstacle is there but the Roman state ; the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce antichrist...?"

Chrysostom, 4th century (Commentary on 2 Thessalonians):
"One may first naturally inquire what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know why Paul expresses this so obscurely, . . . ‘he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.’ That is, when the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, 4th century (Catechetical Lectures, XV):
"But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman Empire shall have been fulfilled..."

Dead Bread, it is Protestant Historicism, not the lies of Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, which teaches the Restrainer which Paul mentioned was preventing the rise of the Man of Sin Antichrist was the Roman Empire, not the "spirit filled church" or some other agent of holiness.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

READ WHAT THE ECF SAID FOR YOURSELF:
Early Church Fathers Were Historicist – H. Grattan Guinness