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The cop out is making claims you cannot support from scripture and then making excuses for not doing so.
Says you, not the bible.“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:7–12) (KJV 1900)
The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and is going nowhere.
It is not the ever present Holy Spirit who you say goes missing.Says you, not the bible.
So who is the restrainer? You are still dodging.
Who says there's only ever been one AOD?The AoD happened in 167 bc. Jesus uses it as a symbol of the looming destruction.
You need to sort out the gospels and epistles before trying to interpret Revelation.Who says there's only ever been one AOD?
What about the one mid trib in revelations? Sure didn't happen and 70 AD
The AoD happened in 167 bc. Jesus uses it as a symbol of the looming destruction.
You need to sort out the gospels and epistles before trying to interpret Revelation.
I believe this speaks of the eternal kingdom under Jesus that emerges in the restoration of Israel (the resurrection of believers) on the last day. And finds fulfillment in the New Heavens and earth. All dominions = gentiles and Jews alike found to be in Christ. But I'm sure there is more to be learned.Dave, this is a more credible version of historicism than what I get from the SDAs. But foregoing Revelations for now (since I'm guessing you spiritualize most of it), what do you do with Daniel 7:27, "And the kingdom and the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey him."
Do you spiritualize this or do you believe it was somehow fulfilled in the literal sense?
You are reading Dispensational ideas into scripture and making it far more complex than necessary. We must redefine OT terms using the NT. And redefine OT themes and institutions using the NT. If you do this, the OT becomes symbolism for NT spiritual realities.All the new testament are letters written to someone. The gospels center on the life of Christ and his saving message. The epistles deal with after his death when the apostles carried out the mission Christ gave them.
As far as prophecy goes, there's no reason to pretend they're somehow different. OT and NT both deal with the future. Some OT prophecies been fulfilled and some has not. NT prophecy builds on OT prophecy.
It is a mistake to separate them instead of reading them together.
Now, back to my question. What about the mid trib abomination?
There was none in 70 AD. The anti Christ wasn't there in 70 AD.
They destroyed the temple in 70AD. They will not mid trib.
Believing Jews were not taken to a place of safety in 70AD where they were protected for 3 1/2 years. Those in Israel will be at mid trib.
You have not thought this through. Our own line of
I believe this speaks of the eternal kingdom under Jesus that emerges in the restoration of Israel (the resurrection of believers) on the last day. And finds fulfillment in the New Heavens and earth. All dominions = gentiles and Jews alike found to be in Christ. But I'm sure there is more to be learned.
Already happened in the great Jewish Tribulation of AD 70. Christian tribulation will remain until the end of the world but we shouldn't confuse it with the past Jewish tribulation.Then do you believe there will be a future abomination of desolation as well, or is that now completely fulfilled?
The bible does not say there will be new heavens:I believe this speaks of the eternal kingdom under Jesus that emerges in the restoration of Israel (the resurrection of believers) on the last day. And finds fulfillment in the New Heavens and earth. All dominions = gentiles and Jews alike found to be in Christ. But I'm sure there is more to be learned.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom so I think it will be vastly different. As far as Israel and 1948, that isn't anything but another nation in a land grab. Not prophecy being fulfilled. God removed the unbelievers from Israel when they rejected Jesus but will graft those who accept Christ back into Israel aka Christendom.The bible does not say there will be new heavens:
A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a]">[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
I believe things will be restored to the condition of genesis 1:1.
Remember, the darkness of the second heaven was to cover the sinful condition on the earth after the war in heaven.
Nor does the restoration of Israel mean the resurrection of believers. Israel was restored in 1948. So do not spiritualize what is said.
Dominion's means governments in countries. In history there are more saints and just in Israel and the Church. The division of jew and gentile began with Abraham.
In eternity there's only one kingdom.
Already happened in the great Jewish Tribulation of AD 70. Christian tribulation will remain until the end of the world but we shouldn't confuse it with the past Jewish tribulation.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom so I think it will be vastly different. As far as Israel and 1948, that isn't anything but another nation in a land grab. Not prophecy being fulfilled. God removed the unbelievers from Israel when they rejected Jesus but will graft those who accept Christ back into Israel aka Christendom.
You are reading Dispensational ideas into scripture and making it far more complex than necessary. We must redefine OT terms using the NT. And redefine OT themes and institutions using the NT. If you do this, the OT becomes symbolism for NT spiritual realities.
...then we must reject the popular idea that the "temple of God" is a soon to be built structure in Jerusalem which ceremonies that are to commence within are to typify a Messiah that has yet to come to this Earth - an official, collective rejection of the precious blood of Jesus and a defiant middle finger in the face of God the Father.
Good luck getting a straight answer on that one. He still won't tell me who he believes the restrainer is, just that it is not the holy spirit.Oki doki. So where do you place verses 29-30 from Matthew 24 in time: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"?
Good luck getting a straight answer on that one. He still won't tell me who he believes the restrainer is, just that it is not the holy spirit.
Of course that is because his priorities to deny the rapture.
Well, I did notice he wanted to put off on discussing Revelations, which means his interpretations are likely more involved there, and less straight forward. That's the problem I have with non-futurist positions. I was looking up the SDA interpretation of the abomination of desolation, and it's a highly involved explanation for something that shouldn't be so complicated:
The Abomination of Desolation | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts
Not making fun of different views by any means. Just saying that historicist positions make perfect sense of a few things but then get extremely convoluted on others.
The Holy Spirit and Jesus and God the Father are one in the same but have different identity's but they are from one in the same and it's the Holy spirit that binds them, if you did not have the Holy Spirit you would not know Jesus or the Father now would you and the same is with Jesus as no one comes to the Father but through him.