Psychics and Mediums?

[Dave L]

Neither does your lame one liners change anything. You have made statements that you cannot support Scripturally. Though you have no answer to what I have said concerning (1 Cor. 12), you ignore it. Yet you now tell me 'denial will not fix the problem'. As before, you are choking on your own words.

Stranger

“One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:4–5) (NASB95)

This says understanding what is said edifies.

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes, I have long heard that scripture used to support OSAS. But also "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Phil 1:6

This is why I modified my thinking to OSASIS. 'Once Saved, Always Saved, IF Saved'

But if we are not eternally secure then I have trouble with these passages taken as a whole...

Great White Throne Judgment
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So this would be unbelievers and, I guess, believers who fell back to Perdition?

Judgment Seat of Christ
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

These are believers who did endure to the end.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Who are these people?

There is no if in Romans 8. OSAS.

A lot of people try to blend works into the gift of salvation.

It is not a license to sin. If we sin it is already forgiven but if we belong to God we have a duty not to sin and our spirits no longer want to sin.

God is quite willing to take your life to preserve your spirit for eternity.

There are those who are saved who do works for themselves, not God. Those works will be burned up and earne no rewards.

A lot of people do not understand they are adding works to salvation.

 

[Stranger]

“One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:4–5) (NASB95)

This says understanding what is said edifies.

No, it says so that the church may be edified if one prophesies. It doesn't say that the one speaking in tongues understands what he has said. He is edified. Yes. But he is edified because of the gift, not because he understands. Even the Old Testament prophets did not always understand what they prophesied. (1 Peter 1:10)

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

I will stick to the KJV and then comment:

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1. Paul was definitely NOT encouraging self-edification (as some imagine) since he makes it perfectly clear that the spiritual gifts are for the edification or spiritual building up of others. And that is why he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues! (1 Cor 14:19).

2. Also in this passage (1 Cor 14:4,5), he is simply being ironical in saying he wished everyone spoke in tongues, since he had already made it clear that not all would speak in tongues: Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:30)

3. Furthermore, he is simply comparing the value of prophecy vs tongues when he says he would have everyone prophesy (rather than speak with tongues). Again, he had already made it clear that not all would prophesy:Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (1 Cor 12:29)

4. Finally he makes it crystal clear that without interpretation, there must be no speaking in tongues (foreign languages supernaturally spoken). Which means that we are talking about human languages, not angelic language or any such nonsense.

It is simply amazing how some Christians miss all these nuances because they fail to take 1 Cor 12-14 as one unit, and would sooner bend Scripture to conform to their ideas, than the reverse.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I was thinking about this. The ministers in 15 still are saved though, right?

Yes.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are trying to lump all but the charismatics together and blame them for Luther's and Calvin's sins. Notice that those whom Jesus rejects at the end of the world do not resemble Evangelicalism in the least. They do exhibit common beliefs and practices found in Charismatic Churches.

No, it is you who are judging Charismatics, because you aren't one. Charismatics believe all of the Bible, you don't, even though out of the other side of your mouth you say the Bible is the Perfect - and not heaven.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You only proved my point as I remember.

You said the speaker in tongues understood what they were saying. No! Only understood by the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. The verses proved that. You must have misread them.

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Tongues on the day of Pentecost spelled doom for the unbelieving Jews. This they understood as OT jargon for judgement.

ROFL

What the tongues were saying on the Day of Pentecost were about the mighty works of God, not judgement of Israel.

 

[Dave L]

ROFL

What the tongues were saying on the Day of Pentecost were about the mighty works of God, not judgement of Israel.

This is true, but Paul also said tongues were a sign of judgement for the unbelievers.

“Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.....” (1 Corinthians 14:22) (KJV 1900)

“The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;” (Deuteronomy 28:49) (KJV 1900)

“Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the Lord: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.” (Jeremiah 5:15) (KJV 1900)

“For with stammering lips and another tongue Will he speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

You said the speaker in tongues understood what they were saying. No! Only understood by the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. The verses proved that. You must have misread them.

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

= my understanding (even though I understand) is unfruitful unless I interpret it for others so they can share in my understanding.

 

[Dave L]

No, it is you who are judging Charismatics, because you aren't one. Charismatics believe all of the Bible, you don't, even though out of the other side of your mouth you say the Bible is the Perfect - and not heaven.

The Pharisees had their oral traditions too. They used them to enhance the scriptures. Jesus condemned them for this and they killed him for it.

 

[Dave L]

I will stick to the KJV and then comment:

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1. Paul was definitely NOT encouraging self-edification (as some imagine) since he makes it perfectly clear that the spiritual gifts are for the edification or spiritual building up of others. And that is why he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues! (1 Cor 14:19).

2. Also in this passage (1 Cor 14:4,5), he is simply being ironical in saying he wished everyone spoke in tongues, since he had already made it clear that not all would speak in tongues: Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:30)

3. Furthermore, he is simply comparing the value of prophecy vs tongues when he says he would have everyone prophesy (rather than speak with tongues). Again, he had already made it clear that not all would prophesy:Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (1 Cor 12:29)

4. Finally he makes it crystal clear that without interpretation, there must be no speaking in tongues (foreign languages supernaturally spoken). Which means that we are talking about human languages, not angelic language or any such nonsense.

It is simply amazing how some Christians miss all these nuances because they fail to take 1 Cor 12-14 as one unit, and would sooner bend Scripture to conform to their ideas, than the reverse.

What I'm saying is that today's tongues are not genuine. Those who spoke in tongues knew what they were saying. Because knowing what is being said is the basis for edification. And Paul says those who spoke in tongues edified themselves.

 

[Dave L]

No, it says so that the church may be edified if one prophesies. It doesn't say that the one speaking in tongues understands what he has said. He is edified. Yes. But he is edified because of the gift, not because he understands. Even the Old Testament prophets did not always understand what they prophesied. (1 Peter 1:10)

Stranger

“One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:4–5) (NASB95)

Understanding edifies. = The one speaking in tongues understood what they said.

 

[Blueberry]

There is no if in Romans 8. OSAS.

A lot of people try to blend works into the gift of salvation.

It is not a license to sin. If we sin it is already forgiven but if we belong to God we have a duty not to sin and our spirits no longer want to sin.

God is quite willing to take your life to preserve your spirit for eternity.

There are those who are saved who do works for themselves, not God. Those works will be burned up and earne no rewards.

A lot of people do not understand they are adding works to salvation.

Hello CoreIssue.

I actually think that you and I are saying much the same thing. By "If" I was meaning a genuine one time salvation. Trying to draw a distinction between people who seemed to be saved, but never were. Some who may walk down a isle and learn how to 'act church' like but never truly gave their hearts to Christ.

Not "If" they stay saved through their works. That statement (of mine) and what you are saying are agreeing entirely. That many works subsequent to salvation can still be selfish or without consideration of God's leading or "to be seen of Men". Those will get burned up. Yes.

I was not saying that we get saved by Grace and then endure by Works. This has been my understanding that if one is truly saved then they are saved once and for all. The "if" in that statement was not "if one perseveres".

That is actually why I chose that particular text. Because my understanding of it has been the same thing I understand you to be saying here.

I appreciate the clarification.

 

[Blueberry]

Yes.

Thanks.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is true, but Paul also said tongues were a sign of judgement for the unbelievers.

“Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.....” (1 Corinthians 14:22) (KJV 1900)

“The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;” (Deuteronomy 28:49) (KJV 1900)

“Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the Lord: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.” (Jeremiah 5:15) (KJV 1900)

“For with stammering lips and another tongue Will he speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11) (KJV 1900)

Yes, judgement to those who mock tongues, not Jews.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

= my understanding (even though I understand) is unfruitful unless I interpret it for others so they can share in my understanding.

Your adding your own words to the text. You're not going to learn anything, if you only go by preconceived ideas.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Pharisees had their oral traditions too. They used them to enhance the scriptures. Jesus condemned them for this and they killed him for it.

No one is adding to Scripture. They are confirming Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Your adding your own words to the text. You're not going to learn anything, if you only go by preconceived ideas.

You are changing the meaning of the text. One must share before understanding can bear fruit.

 

[Dave L]

No one is adding to Scripture. They are confirming Scripture.

Just as the Pharisees did with their oral traditions.