The Rapture Lie

[ScottA]

But it was Paul who said there would be a mass exit, echoing the words of Christ, who said that long before Paul. Now you should ask yourself why there should be a mass exit of the saints. There is a solid reason for this.

Both sides of the equation were indeed spoken. But still, men have not rightly divided the word and cannot reconcile all of what was said. Which I have quoted but you have not acknowledged, but left out.

 

[CoreIssue]

You say archaic, I say original. Modern is not always better.

And, no, they don't at all say the same thing.

What your reading is not original. It is not even original to the 1611 KJV.

Here is the original KJV.

King James Bible

And yes they say the same thing.

No English translation is Word for Word Greek or Hebrew.

Plus the KJV didn't even exist until 1611.

In its sources are from the 1500s, not 100 A.D. or Old Testament times
Like the better translations.

The King James you are reading is from 1873. Still archaic English.

 

[CoreIssue]

But it was Paul who said there would be a mass exit, echoing the words of Christ, who said that long before Paul. Now you should ask yourself why there should be a mass exit of the saints. There is a solid reason for this.

He didn't say anything about a mass exodus. He said Christ first and then us.

I cannot see more than about 10% of the Earth's population being saved at this time.

 

[ScottA]

What your reading is not original. It is not even original to the 1611 KJV.

Here is the original KJV.

King James Bible

And yes they say the same thing.

No English translation is Word for Word Greek or Hebrew.

Plus the KJV didn't even exist until 1611.

In its sources are from the 1500s, not 100 A.D. or Old Testament times
Like the better translations.

The King James you are reading is from 1873. Still archaic English.

1 Corinthians 15:23

“But euery man in his owne order. Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christs, at his comming.”

1611 King James Version (KJV)

...and you don't see where your choice of KJVs states it - not as you have been saying, but just as I said?

 

[Enoch111]

He didn't say anything about a mass exodus. He said Christ first and then us.

Scott was suggesting that The last trump comes to us each individually.
I told him that according to Scripture it is a collective summons, not in terms of the earth population, but in terms of the total number of saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. And the number is indeed very large according to Scripture (Rev 7:9), indeed a mass exodus:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

 

[ScottA]

Scott was suggesting that The last trump comes to us each individually.

Not just suggesting...I was quoting Paul.

 

[CoreIssue]

1 Corinthians 15:23

“But euery man in his owne order. Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christs, at his comming.”

1611 King James Version (KJV)

...and you don't see where your choice of KJVs states it - not as you have been saying, but just as I said?

And how many people can read and understand that?

I lived in Scotland for a year so it's much easier for me.

The NIV and the King James version mean the same thing.

As well, I will take the original Greek over the King James any day. As with Passover, not Easter.

 

[ScottA]

And how many people can read and understand that?

I lived in Scotland for a year so it's much easier for me.

The NIV and the King James version mean the same thing.

As well, I will take the original Greek over the King James any day. As with Passover, not Easter.

You are not taking into account God's declaration that His word will not return void. It is not men and their translations or their use of language which God Himself has confounded that have dominion over His word, but God alone who has providence to every generation and tongue. Our differences do come out on the side of plain and common language, and you are dodging. But God knows the truth, and those who hear Him also know.

 

[CoreIssue]

You are not taking into account God's declaration that His word will not return void. It is not men and their translations or their use of language which God Himself has confounded that have dominion over His word, but God alone who has providence to every generation and tongue. Our differences do come out on the side of plain and common language, and you are dodging. But God knows the truth, and those who hear Him also know.

Claiming God said something he did not and misquoting the Bible is not God's word. It is man's.

The King James version is not the plane in common language we speak.

Yes, I know the truth. That is not the King James version in many places.

None of you KJVO advocates can provide a lick of proof to your claim it is the best and only true Bible. Not a lick.

I don't claim the NIV or NASB is perfect. But they are more accurate than the KJV.
Easter in the Bible is a blatant doctrinal lie.

By your logic the New World Translation is also the valid word of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

Point is, the Lord has already Decided, and Revealed, who shall be where, and when.

It is multitudes of men who are still Deciding.

I've Decided for myself, haven't you?

God Bless,
Taken

Yes wherever God wants me to be.....

 

[Taken]

Yes wherever God wants me to be.....

Point being...every individual must first learn the Knowledge of what is acceptable to God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[mjrhealth]

Point being...every individual must first learn the Knowledge of what is acceptable to God.

Glory to God,
Taken

Something to do with "

Luk_22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 

[Enoch111]

I don't claim the NIV or NASB is perfect. But they are more accurate than the KJV.

This is TOTALLY INCORRECT AND MISLEADING. Those two versions, like all modern versions, are based upon corrupted critical printed texts. Indeed the NIV is proud to tell us that it is a corrupted Bible in the Preface from 1978 (revised in 1983). Also they have clearly told us that it is a paraphrased Bible.

A PARAPHRASE USING DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE
At the same time, they have striven for more than a word-for-word translation. Because thought patterns and syntax differ from language to language, faithful communication of the meaning of the writers of the Bible demands frequent modifications in sentence structures and constant regard for the contextual meaning of words.[READ CONSTANT DISREGARD]

CORRUPT HEBREW TEXT -- BIBLIA HEBRAICA + CORRUPTIONS
For the Old Testament the standard Hebrew text, the Masoretic Text as published [READ CORRUPTED]in the latest editions of Biblia Hebraica, was used throughout. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain material bearing on an earlier stage of Hebrew text. They were consulted, as were the Samaritan Pentateuch and the ancient scribal traditions relating to textual changes. Sometimes a varient Hebrew reading in the margin of the Masoretic Text was followed instead of the text itself. Such instances, being variant within the Masoretic tradition, are not specified by footnotes. In rare cases, words in the consonantal text were divided differently from the way they appear in the Masoretic Text. Footnotes indicate this. The translators also consulted the more important early versions - the Septuagint; Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion; the Vulgate; theSyriac Peshitta; the Targums; and for the Psalms the Juxta Hebraica of Jerome. Readings from these versions were occasionally followed where the Masoretic Text seemed doubtful and where accepted principles of textual criticism showed that one or more of these textual witnesses appeared to provide the correct reading. Such instances are footnoted. Sometimes vowel letters and vowel signs did not, in the judgment of the translators, represent the correct vowels for the original consonantal text. Accordingly some words were read with a different set of vowels. These instances are usually not indicated by footnotes.

CORRUPTED GREEK TEXT
The Greek text used in translating the New Testament was an eclectic one. No other piece of ancient literature has such an abundance of manuscript witnesses as does the New Testament. Where existing manuscripts differ, the translators made their choice of readings according to accepted principles of New Testament textual criticism.[BY NONE OTHER THAN WESTCOTT & HORT] Footnotes call attention to places where there was uncertainty about what the original text was. The best current printed texts of the Greek New Testaments were used.[FOLLOWING W&H, I.E. NESTLE, NESTLE-ALAND, UBS, ETC.]

Both Burgon and Scrivener (along with many other conservative textual scholars no less accomplished than W&H) addressed these so-called accepted principles of New Testament textual criticism in detail, and stated that they had absolutely no validity. Recently Pickering and others have also addressed them, and most scholars have concluded that they were totally misleading.

On the other hand Burgon -- who devoted his life to textual studies -- laid down seven valid principles (called "Notes pf Truth") of textual criticism -- which were ignored by the critics, because that would have been the end of W&H's fantasy about Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. The NASB stands on the same shaky foundation.

 

[Taken]

Something to do with "

Luk_22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

The point of Luke 22:42 is, what is IN the CUP.

What is IN the CUP, is "indignation".

The point IS, every man WHO, chooses to become Converted, IN CHRIST, "will suffer" "indignation" FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD WHO IS NOT CONVERTED".

Jesus KNEW He was GOING TO BE, unjustly beaten, tried, spit on, called names, stipped naked, and nailed to a cross and hang there in agony until his body died, while "some" others looked on in "sorrow".

Jesus was NOT rejecting His bodily death, but rather, inferring to a different method of bodily death.

The answer was no.
He had to be the EXAMPLE, before Witnesses, for the worst excruciating bodily death, that ANY man IN CHRIST might suffer.

WHY?
Because others AFTER CHRIST, would also, SUFFER excruciating deaths, as did Jesus, for His own Faith IN GOD.

WHY?
Because, without, a man IN CHRIST WILLING to SUFFER, the SAME CUP of "indignation" as Jesus Himself did.....

It would not BE JUST, for God Himself to POUR OUT HIS CUP of "indignation" UPON the world, WHO REJECTED HIM.

GOD IS JUST. And WHEN the TIME comes, God Himself will AVENGE ALL the people WHO rejected Him, who spilled others Blood, BECAUSE they Rejected Him...

GODS VENGENCE is "IN HIS CUP" of "indignation", that He SHALL pour out upon the people of the WORLD, (who poured out their own "indignation" on the people IN Christ, and believers IN thee God).

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

BOL's "cup of indignation", is calling people names and liars. It is her mission in life, as she has appointed herself to accomplish, and said she has been doing so for a number of years.

I don't take vengeance upon her, or demand she be silenced, or banned. I laugh at her.

God shall handle the vengeance according to His WILL and WAY.

Glory to God True and Just,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

This is TOTALLY INCORRECT AND MISLEADING. Those two versions, like all modern versions, are based upon corrupted critical printed texts. Indeed the NIV is proud to tell us that it is a corrupted Bible in the Preface from 1978 (revised in 1983). Also they have clearly told us that it is a paraphrased Bible.

A PARAPHRASE USING DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE
At the same time, they have striven for more than a word-for-word translation. Because thought patterns and syntax differ from language to language, faithful communication of the meaning of the writers of the Bible demands frequent modifications in sentence structures and constant regard for the contextual meaning of words.[READ CONSTANT DISREGARD]

CORRUPT HEBREW TEXT -- BIBLIA HEBRAICA + CORRUPTIONS
For the Old Testament the standard Hebrew text, the Masoretic Text as published [READ CORRUPTED]in the latest editions of Biblia Hebraica, was used throughout. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain material bearing on an earlier stage of Hebrew text. They were consulted, as were the Samaritan Pentateuch and the ancient scribal traditions relating to textual changes. Sometimes a varient Hebrew reading in the margin of the Masoretic Text was followed instead of the text itself. Such instances, being variant within the Masoretic tradition, are not specified by footnotes. In rare cases, words in the consonantal text were divided differently from the way they appear in the Masoretic Text. Footnotes indicate this. The translators also consulted the more important early versions - the Septuagint; Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion; the Vulgate; theSyriac Peshitta; the Targums; and for the Psalms the Juxta Hebraica of Jerome. Readings from these versions were occasionally followed where the Masoretic Text seemed doubtful and where accepted principles of textual criticism showed that one or more of these textual witnesses appeared to provide the correct reading. Such instances are footnoted. Sometimes vowel letters and vowel signs did not, in the judgment of the translators, represent the correct vowels for the original consonantal text. Accordingly some words were read with a different set of vowels. These instances are usually not indicated by footnotes.

CORRUPTED GREEK TEXT
The Greek text used in translating the New Testament was an eclectic one. No other piece of ancient literature has such an abundance of manuscript witnesses as does the New Testament. Where existing manuscripts differ, the translators made their choice of readings according to accepted principles of New Testament textual criticism.[BY NONE OTHER THAN WESTCOTT & HORT] Footnotes call attention to places where there was uncertainty about what the original text was. The best current printed texts of the Greek New Testaments were used.[FOLLOWING W&H, I.E. NESTLE, NESTLE-ALAND, UBS, ETC.]

Both Burgon and Scrivener (along with many other conservative textual scholars no less accomplished than W&H) addressed these so-called accepted principles of New Testament textual criticism in detail, and stated that they had absolutely no validity. Recently Pickering and others have also addressed them, and most scholars have concluded that they were totally misleading.

On the other hand Burgon -- who devoted his life to textual studies -- laid down seven valid principles (called "Notes pf Truth") of textual criticism -- which were ignored by the critics, because that would have been the end of W&H's fantasy about Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. The NASB stands on the same shaky foundation.

A translation is not a paraphrase.

There is no such thing as a word for word translation. You could not read it if they tried.

The point remains the KJV comes from manuscripts that did not even exist until the 1500s Which came from Catholic sources. As proven by Easter instead of Passover, an example, in the manuscripts.

 

[Taken]

The point remains the KJV comes from manuscripts that did not even exist until the 1500s Which came from Catholic sources. As proven by Easter instead of Passover, an example, in the manuscripts.

The Point is the Manner in which God decided to to have HIS WORD given to the population of people that would inhabit the earth, from the beginning until the day of His Division being DONE.

It all began, from His Word being spoken BY Gods own Word coming forth out of His Mouth, to the ears of mankind.

Reading the History, God Spoke, God directed men to hear, listen, follow, write, copy, rewrite from memory should writings be destroyed, tell others, speak into their ears, keep speaking for all the world to hear, keep distributing for all the world to read.

I doubt for centuries there is a living man who has not heard of thee Mighty God and Christ Jesus....whether or not he chooses to believe.

God revealed NO discontent for men to speak of God, His Word or His Holy Power....in a mans own words, as long as it Alines with His Truth.

IMO ancient men, traveled, heard teaching and preaching and prophets from very Early Hebrews, whose early teachings were from word of mouth passed down generationally...
And not surprising for BITS and PIECES of early teachings to be found in every corner of the world in umpteen different "religions".

Personally, I favor the 1611 KJV, specifically Because of who was chosen, and what was chosen to Compile the scholars knowledge and known reference writings.

You appear to give FULL credit to the Catholics. I disagree.

I will agree Jerome, whose writings are associated with the Latin Vulgate, that such writings DID have consideration in the compiling of the 1611 KJV, but would disagree, that was the extent of consideration for research manuscripts into the making of the 1611 KJV.

I would further add, the Scholars who participated in compiling the 1611 KJV, I trust were Godly Servants and offered much prayers to be pleasing unto God in their efforts, and the works (manuscripts/writings) were of careful selection.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

The Point is the Manner in which God decided to to have HIS WORD given to the population of people that would inhabit the earth, from the beginning until the day of His Division being DONE.

It all began, from His Word being spoken BY Gods own Word coming forth out of His Mouth, to the ears of mankind.

Reading the History, God Spoke, God directed men to hear, listen, follow, write, copy, rewrite from memory should writings be destroyed, tell others, speak into their ears, keep speaking for all the world to hear, keep distributing for all the world to read.

I doubt for centuries there is a living man who has not heard of thee Mighty God and Christ Jesus....whether or not he chooses to believe.

God revealed NO discontent for men to speak of God, His Word or His Holy Power....in a mans own words, as long as it Alines with His Truth.

IMO ancient men, traveled, heard teaching and preaching and prophets from very Early Hebrews, whose early teachings were from word of mouth passed down generationally...
And not surprising for BITS and PIECES of early teachings to be found in every corner of the world in umpteen different "religions".

Personally, I favor the 1611 KJV, specifically Because of who was chosen, and what was chosen to Compile the scholars knowledge and known reference writings.

You appear to give FULL credit to the Catholics. I disagree.

I will agree Jerome, whose writings are associated with the Latin Vulgate, that such writings DID have consideration in the compiling of the 1611 KJV, but would disagree, that was the extent of consideration for research manuscripts into the making of the 1611 KJV.

I would further add, the Scholars who participated in compiling the 1611 KJV, I trust were Godly Servants and offered much prayers to be pleasing unto God in their efforts, and the works (manuscripts/writings) were of careful selection.

God Bless,
Taken

The Scholars were politically chosen. They were given specific guidelines to abide by, as in hanging on to the flavoring presentation of Catholic and written under Catholic authority Bibles. They were not independent

In fact a large number them wanted to eliminate the Church of England and go back under Rome.

The Puritans wanted the most purity in the new translation and were many times excluded from the process.

So most assuredly the Catholic influence in manuscript sources cannot be denied.

I extensively studied these issuess. Rome access to the KJV authors for political and religious reasons. As well there simply wasn't the manuscript availability then we have today. Many manuscripts were not even discovered until the last 200 to 300 years. And they have shed a lot of light on the Bible.


Yes, there were a lot of traveling preachers who shared what they knew. But they did it by carrying hand copies of the letters by the apostles. Letters that were shared church to church.

I am not a novice on this issue.

 

[Taken]

Scott was suggesting that The last trump comes to us each individually.
I told him that according to Scripture it is a collective summons, not in terms of the earth population, but in terms of the total number of saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. And the number is indeed very large according to Scripture (Rev 7:9), indeed a mass exodus:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...

I find no TRUMP sounding when individual bodies die, (as Scott seems to have suggested) as their living souls departed and going to the place God Prepared for them TO Go, until Bodies are raised.

I believe there ARE mass exodus' of men at particular times....Since not all men shall Believe IN the exact same things, at the exact same times.

Christ's Church first. Jews lastly. Then Gods Wrath and Vengence upon the earth, and His contending with the fallen Angels and cleaning up the mess.


God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The Scholars were politically chosen. They were given specific guidelines to abide by, as in hanging on to the flavoring presentation of Catholic and written under Catholic authority Bibles. They were not independent

In fact a large number them wanted to eliminate the Church of England and go back under Rome.

The Puritans wanted the most purity in the new translation and were many times excluded from the process.

So most assuredly the Catholic influence in manuscript sources cannot be denied.

I extensively studied these issuess. Rome access to the KJV authors for political and religious reasons. As well there simply wasn't the manuscript availability then we have today. Many manuscripts were not even discovered until the last 200 to 300 years. And they have shed a lot of light on the Bible.


Yes, there were a lot of traveling preachers who shared what they knew. But they did it by carrying hand copies of the letters by the apostles. Letters that were shared church to church.

I am not a novice on this issue.

Thank you for informing us of your expert knowledge.

Could you give us some specific examples of who any of the writers were and the scripts/writings they used?

Thanks,
God Bless,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

I find no TRUMP sounding when individual bodies die, (as Scott seems to have suggested) as their living souls departed and going to the place God Prepared for them TO Go, until Bodies are raised.

I believe there ARE mass exodus' of men at particular times....Since not all men shall Believe IN the exact same things, at the exact same times.

Christ's Church first. Jews lastly. Then Gods Wrath and Vengence upon the earth, and His contending with the fallen Angels and cleaning up the mess.


God Bless,
Taken

There is no individual trump in the Bible. Never even hinted at. All Saints, living and dead, from Adam and Eve to the Pratt rapture are snatched away together.

The dead rise first to join the living and we all go.