The Rapture Lie

[Naomi25]

That was all good until you added the promise of a physical return, which proves that your understanding is incredibly wrong, for He said, "The world sees Me no more."

"That was all good until". Wait. Let's forget the "until" for a second and go back. So, you cannot disagree with anything I wrote. So essentially I made my point about 1 Cor 15:23 and the Greek, and plain reading of the text backs me up. It talks about what, who and when. Easy. Right. Now on to the "until"...

You say that the reason Jesus is not returning is because he told his disciples that "the world sees me no more" (John 14:19)

But you use the single verse to build a whole doctrine of NOT returning. Dismissing, it seems, that this passage of John does more for 'our' side, than yours. Lets see what else John 14 says:


In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. -John 14:20–26

Okay, so what do we have here? Jesus says yes, that he is going. However, he tells the Disciples to be comforted, because he will be with them...more! He will be IN them. That he will manifest himself to them, that he and the Father will come and 'make their homes' with those who love Christ. How will they do that? Through the Helper, the Holy Spirit that the Father sends in Christ's name, who will teach us all the things Christ said.

The Holy Spirit is God's presence (and therefore Christ's...who is God) with us.

But let's say you don't buy that as a reason for Christ's 'being here in the spirit'. There are multiple other verses in scripture that speak of Christ returning a second time. And we must understand them as a physical return. Consider:

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, -Philippians 3:20

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. -Hebrews 9:28

and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” -Acts 1:11

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. -1 John 3:2

And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. -1 John 2:28

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. -Revelation 1:7

These are just a few verses that touch on the subject. There are many, many more. More than just your single, little John 14:19. And they all lead us to expect that Christ will "appear", or "coming". Let's see what those words mean.

Appear: come into sight; become visible or noticeable, especially without apparent cause.
Coming: an arrival or approach.

When we add these expectations to Revelation 1:7 where we are told "every eye will see him, and to Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the Disciples that Jesus will come back exactly the same way he departed...then I feel abundantly confident that Christ will, one day, return physically. It's what the bible teaches. Openly. It tells us to look forward to it, to encourage each other with it.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–18

You don't seem to be doing much encouraging on the topic. In fact, you seem to be anti-encouraging...if that is a thing, telling people he's not coming back.

And the irony is...you feel sorry for me. So, I will yield to your request: I will not worry about you.

Nonetheless, for those who have received Christ in the glory of the Father whom is spirit and it is no longer them who live, but Christ who lives in them...let it be known that this is how and when He returns/returned in a way that "The world sees Me no more." Which is the reconciliation and the whole counsel of His word, even if many do not receive it at their own loss until the end.

That's great...swell. But one wonders: for everything you're selling, what happens to death? You must admit that death still happens, all around us, even to Christians...it will even come to you.
We know that Christ won absolute defeat against sin on the cross, but he has yet to fully "cash it in", so to speak, and we know this because death is still present in the world. Which means there is yet something let for him to do in human history...in the grand plan of redemption.
1 Corinthians 15 tells us that it is the defeat of death...the final enemy. And it will be defeated at his second coming.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

But you say this "second coming" doesn't happen. Does this mean death is never defeated? Are you happy for death to go on? How do you believe death will be defeated, or overcome? At what point will death stop ravaging the human race? These are actually really important questions that you can't brush aside. The bible gives us these answers, but when you completely do away with Christ's return, you do away with these passages, that tell us these things:

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:53–55

At Christ's return, we are given our new bodies, and death will be no more. We shall be like him.
This is why 'order' in 1 Cor 15:23 is important, and following through on what they whole passage is teaching us is important. When you start chasing down some absurd rabbit trail of time distortions, you completely allow yourself to miss the point! Christ and his triumph on the cross and then his resurrection (defeating death) and his new resurrection body (the firstfruits of what we shall be) is the template of what we can expect at his return!
This is not 'by the way', or wishful thinking, or pie in the sky. This is essential doctrine that is supported by large chunks of scripture that you keep waving away with no good reason except a verse that is seemingly quoted out of context. That is poor exegesis by anyone's standards.

 

[farouk]

I struggle with the OP's use of the word 'lie' in the title of the thread.

 

[ScottA]

"That was all good until". Wait. Let's forget the "until" for a second and go back. So, you cannot disagree with anything I wrote. So essentially I made my point about 1 Cor 15:23 and the Greek, and plain reading of the text backs me up. It talks about what, who and when. Easy. Right. Now on to the "until"...

I have to stop you there (and perhaps you should have stopped there too), because I was not agreeing with you, but with what is written...even in every translation (except yours, and most of Christendom).

You see, you (and most of Christendom) have not reconciled that passage with "The world sees Me no more." (among others)...and that is a problem.

So, do you want to reconcile it and get back to me, or should I pick away at whatever else you when on about - I'll check. But do get started on reconciling God's word, because this is not going to work otherwise.

 

[ScottA]

You say that the reason Jesus is not returning is because he told his disciples that "the world sees me no more" (John 14:19)

But you use the single verse to build a whole doctrine of NOT returning. Dismissing, it seems, that this passage of John does more for 'our' side, than yours. Lets see what else John 14 says:

See...wrong again.

I did not say "NOT returning" at all. On the contrary...I have said He has returned [because He went to the Father, but is now here again], which you seem to deny by claiming the "omnipresence" of God - which does not change the fact that He came, left, and return...just as He said.

...Which means my attempt to follow along with all that you said after making errors in the first sentence is not working too well - but I will try again.

 

[ScottA]

But let's say you don't buy that as a reason for Christ's 'being here in the spirit'. There are multiple other verses in scripture that speak of Christ returning a second time. And we must understand them as a physical return. Consider:

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, -Philippians 3:20

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. -Hebrews 9:28

and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” -Acts 1:11

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. -1 John 3:2

And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. -1 John 2:28

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. -Revelation 1:7

These are just a few verses that touch on the subject. There are many, many more. More than just your single, little John 14:19. And they all lead us to expect that Christ will "appear", or "coming". Let's see what those words mean.

Appear: come into sight; become visible or noticeable, especially without apparent cause.
Coming: an arrival or approach.

Okay...you don't buy it, even though that is what the scriptures say. I get that.

But then you name what is presumably your best attempt at quoting a sampling of verses - yet none of them say "physical" as you do. So, because it does not say physical and the fact that they do not reconcile with all of God's word...you believe what you believe regardless?

Your case for a "physical" return has nothing going for it but generations of people making the same mistake of not considering the whole counsel of God...which amounts to: nothing.

 

[ScottA]

When we add these expectations to Revelation 1:7 where we are told "every eye will see him, and to Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the Disciples that Jesus will come back exactly the same way he departed...then I feel abundantly confident that Christ will, one day, return physically. It's what the bible teaches. Openly. It tells us to look forward to it, to encourage each other with it.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–18

You don't seem to be doing much encouraging on the topic. In fact, you seem to be anti-encouraging...if that is a thing, telling people he's not coming back.

"Expectations?" Do you not know that is a disaster waiting to happen? It's you extrapolating on your own understanding, it's pure conjecture.

And no, I am not going to give you the same false hope that you have bought into. But rather, I am attempting to reason with you that all of what you are translating into the physical is ultimately greater in the spirit - God is spirit!

But this is you saying, No thank you, you're wrong.

But I am not wrong...and the same word you are reading is rather about our greater future with God (whom is spirit) in the spirit, as One.

 

[ScottA]

But you say this "second coming" doesn't happen. Does this mean death is never defeated? Are you happy for death to go on? How do you believe death will be defeated, or overcome? At what point will death stop ravaging the human race? These are actually really important questions that you can't brush aside. The bible gives us these answers, but when you completely do away with Christ's return, you do away with these passages, that tell us these things:

And here you go a-g-a-i-n... misquoting me...

I DID NOT SAY the "second coming doesn't happen." On the contrary...I said, it has been happening for 2000 years "each in his own order", and will continue until "the end"...just as it is written.

...Okay... That's enough. You are just misquoting, misunderstanding everything, and reconciling only part and not all. You got homework to do. If you want to discuss it, fine. But don't go on and on. Please make your comments concise, and one point at a time. Try facts instead of emotions. Please.

 

[Naomi25]

I have to stop you there (and perhaps you should have stopped there too), because I was not agreeing with you, but with what is written...even in every translation (except yours, and most of Christendom).

You see, you (and most of Christendom) have not reconciled that passage with "The world sees Me no more." (among others)...and that is a problem.

So, do you want to reconcile it and get back to me, or should I pick away at whatever else you when on about - I'll check. But do get started on reconciling God's word, because this is not going to work otherwise.

Well wait...is the verse about "The world sees me no more" or is it about "each man", as you previously claimed it was? Because there's no point moving onto the issue of 'the world sees me no more" until the whole "each man" thing has been answered. Which, quite frankly, you haven't. And I don't think you can.

You claim that 1 Cor 15:23 HAS to mean that every man has his own, mini Rapture when he dies, receiving his 'new body', I'm assuming, on his way up...only that on "heaven's side" everyone arrives in one big "bang" due to some funky time distortion.

Because, I mean...sure. That just jumps out of the passage.

I've shown...repeatedly, I think, that the natural reading...in Greek, and in English, is simply how it reads: "this is the order of things: Christ went first, then WHEN he comes, the rest of us".

You, good sir, have huffed and puffed a lot, but have provided no real biblical, or even logical refutation.

 

[Naomi25]

See...wrong again.

I did not say "NOT returning" at all. On the contrary...I have said He has returned [because He went to the Father, but is now here again], which you seem to deny by claiming the "omnipresence" of God - which does not change the fact that He came, left, and return...just as He said.

...Which means my attempt to follow along with all that you said after making errors in the first sentence is not working too well - but I will try again.

Ok, cool, so you're one step further along, so that's good. So keep reading through John 14 and see that the fact that Christ leaving...his promise of being "in" us, being "manifest", is actually through his promise of sending the Holy Spirit. It says it right there, like, three verses after the verse you seem to hang everything on.

 

[Naomi25]

And here you go a-g-a-i-n... misquoting me...

I DID NOT SAY the "second coming doesn't happen." On the contrary...I said, it has been happening for 2000 years "each in his own order", and will continue until "the end"...just as it is written.

...Okay... That's enough. You are just misquoting, misunderstanding everything, and reconciling only part and not all. You got homework to do. If you want to discuss it, fine. But don't go on and on. Please make your comments concise, and one point at a time. Try facts instead of emotions. Please.

Ok...I haven't been misquoting on purpose...I just don't get what you're saying.
So...when you say that "each in his own order" thing...you're not just talking about people experiencing their own "mini-raptures", complete with imperishable bodies. You're talking about that being a progressive, ongoing "second coming"?
I still think that's entirely wrong, for basically the same reasons. But I suppose at least it brings the focus of the conversation down a bit. So really, what we need to be talking about, is how the second coming is a single, future, physical event, yeah?

 

[ScottA]

Well wait...is the verse about "The world sees me no more" or is it about "each man", as you previously claimed it was? Because there's no point moving onto the issue of 'the world sees me no more" until the whole "each man" thing has been answered. Which, quite frankly, you haven't. And I don't think you can.

You claim that 1 Cor 15:23 HAS to mean that every man has his own, mini Rapture when he dies, receiving his 'new body', I'm assuming, on his way up...only that on "heaven's side" everyone arrives in one big "bang" due to some funky time distortion.

Because, I mean...sure. That just jumps out of the passage.

I've shown...repeatedly, I think, that the natural reading...in Greek, and in English, is simply how it reads: "this is the order of things: Christ went first, then WHEN he comes, the rest of us".

You, good sir, have huffed and puffed a lot, but have provided no real biblical, or even logical refutation.

Well, I can see that (by, as you say, your "assuming") that we are not ready to move on. So okay...

Backing up then...let me ask you:

1. When does eternal life begin, when "it is no longer you who lives, but Christ who lives in you", or when your body dies?
2. Does Christ begin to "live in you" with everyone all in one big event at the end of the age, or individually, "each in his own order?"
3. Does everyone die all in one big mass event at the end of the age, or individually, "each in his own order?"
4. Is the "day and the hour" of ones own salvation and also their death when "no one knows?"

...and if you need to look up the verses I have quoted. Then perhaps we will be ready to go forward.

Oh, and please, I am trying to be kind and patient, stop with the sarcasm.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, cool, so you're one step further along, so that's good. So keep reading through John 14 and see that the fact that Christ leaving...his promise of being "in" us, being "manifest", is actually through his promise of sending the Holy Spirit. It says it right there, like, three verses after the verse you seem to hang everything on.

Your logic doesn't work - Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One.

But let me ask you:

1. Does Jesus return in the glory of the Father, or in the image of a fallen man?
2. Is the glory of the Father, flesh, or spirit?

 

[Enoch111]

Your logic doesn't work - Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One.

Depends on what you mean by "one". Naturally there is total harmony and oneness between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. BUT THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE, even though there are times when the Holy Spirit is called either "the Spirit of God" or "the Spirit of Christ". See John 15 & 16 to confirm that the Paraclete (the Comforter) is not Christ, but comes to earth after Jesus returns to Heaven.

Does Jesus return in the glory of the Father, or in the image of a fallen man?

Jesus was NEVER "in the image of fallen man". He was simply in the likeness of man (mankind) -- a sinless human who was simultaneously the God-Man. And He returned to Heaven in a glorified and glorious body of flesh and bones. A transformed human body (which will also be true for all the saints)

Is the glory of the Father, flesh, or spirit?

Neither. It is simply the glory of God, which is the absolute radiance of God. And Jesus has the same glory or radiance, which is brighter than the noonday sun.

 

[ScottA]

Ok...I haven't been misquoting on purpose...I just don't get what you're saying.
So...when you say that "each in his own order" thing...you're not just talking about people experiencing their own "mini-raptures", complete with imperishable bodies. You're talking about that being a progressive, ongoing "second coming"?
I still think that's entirely wrong, for basically the same reasons. But I suppose at least it brings the focus of the conversation down a bit. So really, what we need to be talking about, is how the second coming is a single, future, physical event, yeah?

I did quote you...but never mind that.

No, when I say that "each in his own order" [scripture]...I most certainly am talking about Christ "living" instead of them who "no longer live", which is the rapturous time of their salvation. But that "imperishable body" is not their old "natural body", but the new "spiritual body" they share with Christ. And because that all does not happen as one mass event including all who are in Christ, but "each in his own order", I am talking about it beginning "soon" according to Jesus, 2000 years ago, and continuing until (according to Jesus) "the end of the age."

All of which does not reconcile scripture to scripture, any other way.

But, no, there is no "single, future, physical event." That cannot be reconciled scripture to scripture with the whole counsel of God.

 

[CoreIssue]

Your logic doesn't work - Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One.

So how did the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus if they are one and the same?

 

[Taken]

FIRST COMING of Jesus ~

In the LIKENESS as a man.
In a BODY Prepared of God.
Seen by other men.
Called the SON of man.
Assended INTO the Clouds.
Was "SEEN" no more.
IS BODILY IN Heaven.

Thee Comforter, ie thee Holy Spirit, ie thee Light and Power of God, ie thee Lord, ie thee Christ, ie thee Word of God, ie thee Jesus, a name given by God, above all other names......IS He whose Spirit is God, and Dwells WITHIN every Converted man. <---- THAT is NOT the Lords SECOND COMING. THAT IS the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus, THAT every Converted man WHILE IN HIS LIVING FLESH....Can be forgiven, saved, quickened, and the Lords Spirit dwell with and within that man FOREVER....BEFORE the man experiences PHYSICAL DEATH.

SECOND COMING of Jesus ~

No one knows the Day or Hour or will SEE Him DESCEND FROM Heaven.

He DESCENDS From Heaven TO the CLOUDS and Calls UP TO HIM, those CONVERTED IN CHRIST.

At the END of the TRIBULATION, ALL the inhabitants "OF" the Earth, SHALL SEE....
The SON of man, in the SAME BODY, Coming out of the Clouds, Down to Earth, In the same Body, God prepared for Him at His FIRST COMING.

ALL the Inhabitants "OF" the Earth, EVEN those who pierced Him when He was Crucified.....
"One should know, "ALL THe INHABItANTS OF the EARTH, ARE THOSE who rejected thee God and thee Christ"...

Men who are saved, born again, saints....are not "OF" the Corrupt Earth. They are "OF" God. The will not be ON the Earth watching the Son of man, Come DOWN to Earth....THEY WILL BE WITH HIM.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

Well, I can see that (by, as you say, your "assuming") that we are not ready to move on. So okay...

Backing up then...let me ask you:

1. When does eternal life begin, when "it is no longer you who lives, but Christ who lives in you", or when your body dies?

That depends, of course, on what context we're talking about 'eternal life'. By accepting Christ and recieving the Holy Spirit as a guarantee:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

Now, a guarantee is something assured, but not actually recieved until later. We know in Christ we shall have eternal life, but this life...this world, is not that time. It is only once we have put off the perishable and put on the imperishable (1 Cor 15) that we will see this eternality fulfilled. For most of us, we must see death first, for this promise to be fulfilled, but for some, we have a promise that we will not see death, or 'sleep', but that we will see that 'change' while alive:

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:51, 54

When? At Christ's return:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:22–26

Basically we're being told that right now we have a guarantee, an asured promise that is sealed in us by the Holy Spirit. We know it to be absolutely true that we have eternal life before us. But we do not have it now. Unless Christ returns before we die, we shall die.
The power of death is clearly and finally defeated at Christ's return, an event the bible paints as "the end", when Christ delivers all these things (all rules, authorities and enemies) to the Father. And we are given that which we have been sealed for...the imperishable.

1. Does Christ begin to "live in you" with everyone all in one big event at the end of the age, or individually, "each in his own order?"

Ok...wait. I'm struggling to understand what you mean by "live in you". Why would this event have anything to do with the passage in question? Why would you think Christ "living within us" happens "each in his own order" as the Rapture events that you are talking about? Is that what you are talking about? Because if it is, you are even more confused than I thought.
Look...the phrase "Live in you", means that God comes to dwell within a person and regenerates them...we're talking salvation, yes? And this happens when a person accepts Christ as their Saviour. It sometimes happens when a person is on their death bed, I grant you, but most of the time, people live for some time afterwards as a Christian, growing ever closer to Christ through sanctification in the Holy Spirit. This is clearly taught in scripture:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. -John 14:16–17

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: - 1 Peter 1:2

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. -Romans 6:22

So, when we come to 1 Cor 15:23 and we start thinking about "each in their own order", as well as "Christ in us", we don't understand it as thinking that the verse, which clearly speaks of Christ's "coming", is telling us that we must wait till then to be "in Christ".
Absolutely not. And the verse doesn't say anything of the sort. It just specifies that those who are already IN Christ, at his coming, will then be like him. Him the firstfruits, we the, well, seconds.
If you try and make it about salvation and being in Christ, you are twisting the verse just as much as you are if you try and make it about time distortions.

1. Does everyone die all in one big mass event at the end of the age, or individually, "each in his own order?"

Again, you are attempting to put into and onto, a verse, what is not there. You cannot claim your argument true just by saying "ha! see, no mass death event!" It doesn't work like that. You need to show, first from the verse in question, which you haven't, by the way, and from other verses to back up your understanding, which you also haven't. Objecting to my objection is not a valid arguement. Telling someone they are wrong, without showing from scripture why, is also not valid. Quoting three or four words from the one verse over and over again in the hope that perhaps this time it will prove your point, will also fail to stand up under biblical scrunity.

How about you take a step back, go back and read all the verses I've given, and address at least one of them, in regards to the subject? How are the verses I've used incorrect? If you think they are, show me.

1. Is the "day and the hour" of ones own salvation and also their death when "no one knows?"

...and if you need to look up the verses I have quoted. Then perhaps we will be ready to go forward.

One can be sure of ones salvation as soon as one accepts Christ.

He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. -2 Corinthians 5:5

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

And of course no one knows the hour of their death. No one knows the hour of Christ's return, either. But, scripture clearly tells us there is a difference between death...individual, 'ordinary' death, that happens on a regular basis, and the events that will happen on his return:

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13–18


So, here's another passage where Paul gives us the who, and the sequence: he says Jesus will come with a cry, the dead will rise first, then those who are still alive at the time. This is a definite event in time where there will be those still alive...those who will not die.
And it has nothing to do with knowing, or not knowing, the time of your death.

Oh, and please, I am trying to be kind and patient, stop with the sarcasm.

I'm sorry, my sarcasm tends to jump into overdrive when I get accused of being...how did it go? If I didn't "have Christ" I wasn't in the position to speculate on what we were talking about. And apparently, according to you, not agreeing with you is the definition of not having Christ. And this, with, you know, very litte, to substantiate your whole point. It just seemed a bit rich, so yeah...sarcasm.
I'll try and reign it in.

 

[Naomi25]

Your logic doesn't work - Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One.

But let me ask you:

1. Does Jesus return in the glory of the Father, or in the image of a fallen man?
2. Is the glory of the Father, flesh, or spirit?

Why doesn't my logic work? The point IS that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one! The Trinity is one!

Christ returns as he returns...let's ask him:

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. -Revelation 19:11–16

You don't get it, do you? Christ has his own glory. He paid for it upon the cross, he appears wearing it before the throne of his Father (as the slain Lamb). Angels and elders bow down and worship him, as do men or all nations. He comes in THAT glory.
And we know, from Rev 1:7 that we shall see him, he will not be invisible spirit.

Look...seriously. If you want me to even start to take you seriously, you need to start bringing out scripture. You just haven't been. Your questions don't cut it, your short, "snippet" verses don't either, I'm sorry. Dig deep, get those verses in context, then we'll see.

 

[Naomi25]

I did quote you...but never mind that.

No, when I say that "each in his own order" [scripture]...I most certainly am talking about Christ "living" instead of them who "no longer live", which is the rapturous time of their salvation. But that "imperishable body" is not their old "natural body", but the new "spiritual body" they share with Christ. And because that all does not happen as one mass event including all who are in Christ, but "each in his own order", I am talking about it beginning "soon" according to Jesus, 2000 years ago, and continuing until (according to Jesus) "the end of the age."

All of which does not reconcile scripture to scripture, any other way.

But, no, there is no "single, future, physical event." That cannot be reconciled scripture to scripture with the whole counsel of God.

I never said you didn't quote me, I said I never meant to misquote you.

Question: how are we to 'share' our new, spiritual body with Christ? I'd like you to just spell this out a bit in more detail, because I just don't quite get what you're pushing at, sorry.

Also...you keep on at this "it isn't a mass event" thesis. Which I very much disagree with. I think there are plenty of verses to prove that we are talking about a future event. But I've given several of those verses and you just don't seem to notice them, or care. Which may explain why you've ended up where you are.
But, I have to also have to say that for all you're pushing a 'continuous' event, I have not, yet, seen a single verse (past your 'each in their own order, which I don't think is strong enough by itself, because I don't think that is what it's talking about at all) that supports your idea. To form a doctrine as...remarkable...as you have, you need more than a single phrase. Do you have it?

 

[mjrhealth]

Seems this post has taken a turn, lets add a bit more,

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

For there are "some" who are already saved, already judged and by the works of Christ found inn9ocent, how can a man found innocent be judged a second time??

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

and so it is as it is written. its all a part of this bit,

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

For those who are "dead in Christ" no longer have the cross before them, because Christ is now before us, He alone is teh way that leads to life, and even amongst Christians, " few there find It"

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

hasnt changed since He spoke those words.