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The Rapture Lie

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Christina, May 27, 2010.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The Rapture Lie

    I chose the strong word in the title of this lesson for a very good reason. There’s a very dangerous doctrine circulating around in the Christian Church that will have dramatic effects on those who choose to walk down this false path. In this lesson, I want you to see that this idea that all “Good Christians” will be taken from the Earth shortly before or early during the reign of the “antichrist” is something that is not based upon what the Bible teaches.

    However, I want you to do something very important right now. Please take the time right now to say a prayer with Our Father. He listens no matter where you are and at any time of the day. So turn down the noise and even close the door to get some privacy and talk to Him. He’ll listen, you can count on that. Pray for wisdom and understanding and let him lead you down the right path. For Jesus Christ himself said this to Peter, who would become the first member of the body of Christ as we know it:


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    Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


    The Holy Spirit is the ultimate source of understanding and it’s God’s special gift that only he can give. Flesh and blood, meaning ourselves cannot truly understand the Word on our own. I need his help. We need his help.

    Brief History of The Rapture
    The history of the doctrine of the rapture as we know it began with the teachings of a man in the late 19th century in America. This man was named John Darby. The term was popularized further by another man, William Eugene Blackstone, "Jesus is Coming" and a final inclusion in the Scofield Reference Bible. The word rapture itself(with today's definition) never appears, and as I will prove later, the concept of the Rapture certainly doesn’t either. However, it is important to note that the word "rapture" is taken from the Latin "raptus" when the origianl Greek was translated to Latin. It is quite clear that this word has been corrupted to mean what it does today. That somehow, somewhere, all Christians will magically fly away. There are certainly similar comments that were made before this time, but these comments were mostly obscure and questionable references and clearly not the opinion of the majority of learned scholars in the early church. However, these were just men as well. Trust in God above all things. This makes the Rapture doctrine a recent creation of man of which proponents can only cite Scripture cherry-picked to construct the necessary timeline.

    What the Bible Says
    Now we come to the important part.

    The Bible abounds with references to what will happen at the second advent (the return of our Lord and savior). Rapture pundits love to use this verse:

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    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    Step back and read the verse. “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.”

    Now, I don’t know about you, but this doesn’t sound like a quiet event to me in the sense of some secret rapture?


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    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Clearly, the two verses illustrate a clear message. Those who died first (naturally) will be the first to reach heaven, then those of us which are alive and on Earth will be next meaning that there will be Christians alive when Christ returns. Is there a Rapture going on anywhere right here? I think not.

    Now, let’s check out the second letter to Thessalonica and see what else Paul has to say about the second coming. Ironically, this epistle was written to correct errant doctrine and clarify what was meant in the first.


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    2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

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    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    Let no man deceive you by any means; in other words, listen to Christ and Our Father’s Word. There will come a falling away first. One can make the argument here that the term “falling away” is very vague but, obviously, it will happen first. I believe, very strongly, that this falling away (Greek: apostasia) refers almost directly to this idea of a rapture. The Greek, found in Strongs #G0646, means defection from the truth as in a revolt or rebellion.

    I hope you’re already starting to see that the rapture doctrine is a departure from the Word of God. There’s also been some confusion on the latter part of the verse. Who is the “man of sin” and “son of perdition” there? Perdition, Greek apoleia (Strong’s #G0684), ruin or loss. Quite clearly this son of ruin or loss is none other than Satan since he is the only one who is sealed for destruction throughout the Bible. The term revealed (Strong’s G#0601) means to take off the cover; disclose. In other words, Satan himself will be revealed to the world. This hasn’t happened yet. This finally will happen when Satan comes as the antichrist.


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    2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


    There will be a lot of people fooled by Satan and will believe a lie. Is the rapture theory one of these lies? The answer is yes. Christ himself talks about his return in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. I’ll hit the highpoints of all of these, but I encourage you to pray and study these verses because these are the words of Christ himself about his own return.


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    Matthew 24:1- 51 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    One of the clear messages of this passage in Matthew is that there will be deceit all over the place and it, if possible, could even deceive those who are the elect of God! I’ve highlighted a lot of verses above. I’ll go over many, but others were highlighted because they show important signs to look out for. Regardless of what you believe, you should know these signs given by the Word of Our Father.


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    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    I think you’ll agree with me that there is no room for a rapture in Matthew 24:1-12 and yet here we have a verse talking about the “he that shall endure unto the end.” This verse is preparing God’s elect for the long haul. Those of us who are alive in these last days will have to endure until the end. There’s no room for a rapture here.


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    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


    I won’t cover Daniel here, but you can find this specific reference in Daniel 12:11. You’ll notice that I highlighted 2 Thessalonians 2:4 previously in this study, but did not cover it. Now, I will do so because it makes more sense.


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    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    This is that same “son of peridition,” or the devil if you prefer. Either way, he’s going to exalt himself as God in a very blasphemous and important way. The Greek word used here is naos (Strong’s #G3485). Naos is a very interesting word and can mean temple in a variety of ways:


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    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple [naos] of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    Ephesians 2:20-21 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    Clearly, temple doesn’t just mean a building, thought it can and is used in the Bible to do so. You have to be careful here. However, I think it’s evident from the surrounding verses that this is Satan who will set himself up in the hearts and minds of many (including even brick and mortar churches) as Christ. In other words, Satan will come as Christ!

    This is the true danger of the rapture theory. This is why Christ says what he does in Matthew 24:26-27:
    Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Christ will come just like in verse 27. He’ll come from the east and go unto the west. Again, does this denote any sort of rapture? He comes one time, from the east unto the west as the Sun does. The word lightning should be rendered sun because the sun rises from the east and sets in the west. And here again, we have a very distinct order. The tribulation takes place and then Christ returns with no rapture taking place anytime before this. The elect are here on Earth awaiting the return of Jesus the Christ.


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    Matthew 24:30-31And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    The sound of the trumpet will herald the gathering of the Elect. Do you know who they are, beloved?

    This is perhaps one of the most famous references that is used to support a rapture:


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    Matthew24:39-46 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


    Let’s look at the context. What about this supports a rapture? The answer is simple. Nothing! Read Matthew 24:46 at the bottom there. It clearly says, “Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.” In other words, the Blessed one (those who will enter unto the Kingdom) are the ones still in the field working. The ones taken are not the blessed ones. Why? Because the ones who are taken are the ones who have fallen away! These are the ones fooled by the words of men and ultimately of the “antichrist” himself who will exalt himself as Christ returned. These ones who are taken are indeed probably a part of the rapture, but they’ll not get the rapture that they expected. They’ll fall to the deceit that Christ warns about over and over again.

    Finally, we’ll go over another rapture theory favorite:

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    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    Let us go to Revelation 8, Revelation 9, and Revelation 10 to find out what this trump is when the last trumpet shall sound and the dead raised and we’ll be changed.


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    Revelation 8:1-13 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!



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    Revelation 9:1-3 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.



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    Revelation 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.



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    Revelation 10:1-11And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


    This describes the 7 trumpets which the 7 angels shall sound a trump with. We go back to 1 Corinthians 15:52 which confirms that this shall happen at the sounding of the last trumpet which we clearly see in Revelation is the return of God! In closing, I want to point out that I have not covered anywhere near the majority of the Biblical prophecy about the last days. There are many more passages falsely construed by men and used everyday to further lies about what will happen. If you have questions, I’ll be more than happy to do my best to address them. However, the best Q&A you’ll ever get is from God. Talk to him about it and I promise he will not lead you astray if you’ll listen to him. Pray for wisdom and understanding in this issue and it will come. Open your heart to him and take this up with him. I write these lessons because this is what my studies and God has led me to do, but I am a mere man myself. Remember who is in charge and you listen to Him only.

    Even if you walk away from this lesson still believing in the rapture, please just do one thing for yourself. Know those signs that are given so that you’ll know them if they come to pass. Know the scriptures. They are God’s Word to you and nothing in the world can change nor replace that.

    God Bless!
     
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  2. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Well.................. out of all the tons of "No Rapture" post you make. I was hoping that at least one of the many would not use the term "Fly Away"

    I can always wait for your next "No Rapture" post................

    Be blessed.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    :unsure: e
     
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  4. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    No, Actually I am going to read your post again a few times and look at the scripture. I was just making a observation is all.

    This should also tell you I have read several of your "No Rapture" post, which should make you happy.

    If I have any questions I'll post them. I don't have a strong stance on the Rapture anyway as Both sides do make sense to me.

    Be blessed.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
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  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You speak out of both sides of your mouth you have done nothing besides
    hassel me on this rapture and now because I post Hammerstones study you back off ...I think thats called a hypocrite
     
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  6. revdw76

    revdw76 New Member

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    Well who among us doesn't wish we could escape what is to come, it sounds scary. But it says we will face it. It also says God will give us no more than we can handle too. So I trust God to protect me.
     
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  7. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Christina:


    Give me a break!!!! I don't care if it's Hammerstones study. That has nothing to do with anything. I don't have the scripture knowledge in this area to debate anyone.

    Just because you post something Christina, is not a automatic debate for me. I picked on one of your post concerning the 2nd death. I am checking this out............ So be cool for a bit. I am also not the one that gave you a red mark. You must not be making friends here.

    rev dw embry
    Escape has nothing to do with it................ It is a misconception among those that do not believe in a Rapture, they think the rest of us want to "Fly Away" That is not the case. I could care less if there is a Rapture or not a Rapture.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
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  8. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    I don't want to escape it, I'm not worried about it. It is the reason I'm here.
     
  9. 01CobraVortech

    01CobraVortech New Member

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    The only thing I can contribute to this thread is the Lord's Words. Yes these words don't support the "rapture" doctrine but they should give pause to those that call it a lie and completely unbiblical.

    "Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1 (NKJV)

    I love the book of Proverbs. God even states some funny things about women that are so true. :lol:
     
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  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Your either a liar, or completly insane let God be the judge anyone who has followed this site for days knows better you have attacked and attacked everything I ve have said and God knows it. and so does everyone else wether they are your buddies and thought it justiefed or not ...its still a fact .
    .. give me a break ..you belive your owns lies but do not ask me to believe them

    Sad part is when you were at my site we may not have agreed with you but you were treated with kindness and respect, and you know it.
     
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  11. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Christiana.......................I jumped on your Hell thread...... The second death.

    Now as for my so called buddies??? If you mean Jiggyfly as one of them, Him and I have gone at it for ages...........over two years.

    The thing is, we also agree on things. Each thread is different, and we start out as if we just met.

    If you pay attention............... it's not my buddies. It's those that are on the side of the Pentecostal beliefs.

    There is a difference in Sprit filled Christians and non Spirit filled ones.....................Ones that claim to operate in the Gifts of the Spirit like tongues and those that don't.............

    It's not my buddies.......... It is belief systems...........

    So, I am not lying or insane............... You just need to stop taking things so serious................ just calm down.

    I am not beating up your post here.......... I am not even trying.

    Be blessed..................

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
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  12. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    Well if it's a lie I will call it a lie. If it is not Scriptural I will say it's not Scriptural. The rapture doctrine is a LIE and it is NOT SCRIPTURAL!
    If you don't like correction your verse tells you what you are.
     
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  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You think you can treat anyone anyway you want and then say oh no biggie I dont take it that way.
    do not be serious ..you are a liar you have jumped on every post and thread I have made play your game say your denials make up your excuses changes nothing in my eyes or Gods. With two or more wittness you are guilty in the eyes of God.

    and oh just because you dont have pencoastal written on your chuch door it is the religion you practice.
    not saying its right or wrong its just what you pratice. do not address me again
     
    Christina likes this.
  14. 01CobraVortech

    01CobraVortech New Member

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    Be careful, one day I may just have to ask the Lord if He permits me to read that verse to you. Preferable right after the "rapture." :lol:
     
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  15. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    I am waiting! But it wont happen.
     
  16. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    It is scriptural fact that one day there will be a translation of living Christians to meet The Lord in the air .

    The exact timing of this event is not precisely clear.

    Anyone claiming to know the timing of this event is not telling the truth.
     
  17. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    You are correct Martin....................................I can be before or after. I have studied both sides very carefully, and have concluded that it is all how you look at timing. If God wanted it clear, then it would all be clear. who arguees that the tribulation won't be a seven year period? Nobody, because it is clear for all to see.

    I have never done this, but here is someone elses Work..............................

    by Kent Crockett

    Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.

    The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

    Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.

    This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

    Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.

    In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

    In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

    Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day

    Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

    Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)

    The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

    Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)

    A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

    Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.

    After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

    Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)

    The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

    Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)

    Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

    Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.

    When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

    Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.

    First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

    Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.

    When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

    Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).

    Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

    Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.

    In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

    Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)

    If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

    Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?

    If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ken address some time issues, and they make sense to me. It also looks like Ken had done his homework.

    To say there is not Rapture, or removing of the Chruch at least, bring up lots of issues.

    Now saying your study is better than someone else, when there are clear timeing issues is just silly.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
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  18. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    Sorry mw, but neither of your statements is true.


    We are going to meet Christ "in the air," but look at the word, it's not sky, it's our spiritual body. And the "clouds" are not water vapor clouds but its "clouds" as Paul uses it in Hebrews when he talks about the "great cloud of witnesses."

    And you need to study that verse in Matthew 24:36 better and discover the full meaning of the word "knoweth" better. It's talking about intuitive knowledge (oida)
     
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  19. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    Go right ahead and follow him and all the others down the "wide path", bm.
     
  20. 6stringedsignseeker

    6stringedsignseeker New Member

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     Christina, the popular assumption that teaching on the rapture didn't occur until the 19th century is wrong...




    All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem: Late 4th century 

    ..and do you go by the name Hazel as well? http://www.care2.com...241&pst=1104035 I found the same thing you posted above in something called the rapture lie bible study....  :huh: just wonderin.
     
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