Questions by Many

[farouk]

Romans 2 helps me personally. With Jewish family I have questioned if since He made that covenant with the Jews and gave them those laws, if these are His ways. I am glad I am not under those 600 plus laws, but like the ten commandments, I follow them because I love God. Would following some of these others laws of the OT show I love God and want to follow His ways also. Or are the others man made laws, and the ten commandments are the laws He wants us to focus on.

They were good questions to think about. It was actually nice to talk with her, because she wouldn't really hear me out before she married and converted to Judaism. Then she started reading God's Word- The Tanach anyhow. She told me she hasn't excluded Christ as the Messiah. She just didn't know yet. I asked her if she understood why I was concerned, because I do believe under the New Covenant that only by Christ are we saved.

Sounds like you testified faithfully; may God bless your testimony from Scripture.

 

[Harvest 1874]

There are hard questions my sister asks I realize I still do not know how to answer. I did the best I can. I've heard them before.

1) Why does God send "good" people to Hell? She doesn't believe He does.

First let me say that these are two very reasonable questions one might ask; let us take a look at your first query.

First in order to properly address this question it is important to make a distinction between the “hell” of the bible and the “hell” as taught by the creeds, one is truth the other merely the vain babblings of men.

The word “hell” is an English word sometimes selected by translators of the English Bible to express the sense of the Hebrew word “sheol” and the Greek words “hades”, “tartaroo”, and “Gehenna”, sometimes rendered “grave” and/or “pit”.

The meaning of "sheol" is "the hidden state," as applied to man's condition in death, in and beyond which all is hidden, except to the eye of faith; hence, by proper and close association, the word was often used in the sense of grave e.g. the tomb, the hidden place, or place beyond which only those who have the enlightened eye of the understanding can see resurrection, restitution of being.

The word “hell” (sheol) DOES NOT in any sense of the word imply a place of eternal torment as taught through the creeds of men.

It does not mean a lake of fire and brimstone nor anything at all resembling that thought not in the slightest degree. Quite the reverse, instead of a place of blazing fire it is described in the context as a state of “darkness” (Job 10:21) instead of a place where shrieks and groans are heard it is described in the context as a place of “silence” (Psa 115:17); instead of representing in any sense pain and suffering, or remorse, the context describes it as a place or condition of "forgetfulness" (Psa 88:11, 12).

“There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge (consciousness), in the grave "[sheol]" whither thou goes.” (Eccl. 9:10)

This Satanic doctrine, which was borrowed from heathen religions has caused more fear in the hearts of man, than any other of the “doctrines of demons” used by the clergy. It purposes was to keep the people in absolute subjection. And so it has, to those who do not know the true nature and character of their God. As it is written,

“Those who guide these people mislead them and those who are guided are led astray”. Isa 9:16

No such place as a hell of eternal torment is mentioned in the scriptures, if it were would not the Apostle Paul have mentioned it, did he not declare to us that he, “…shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God?” Acts 20:27

If there were indeed such a punishment held out for all evil doers and non-believers why would he fell to mention such an important fact? Why? Because there was no such thing to declare, “the wages of sin is death” even as he so stated in Rom 6:23.

Now as for the “hell” which is taught in the bible, the true hell, the scriptures imply that both the good and the bad go there upon death. Note for example the case of Job, if hell were the place which the creeds teach why then would he pray to the Lord:

“Oh, that you would hide me in the grave (Sheol), That You would conceal me until your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!” Job 14:13

Since it was the divine intention that there should be a resurrection of both the good and the bad, death at present is merely referred to as a state of “sleep”. Thus all mankind are said to be “asleep in Jesus” (1 Thess 4:14) the exception of this of course being those begotten of the Lord’s spirit who are said to be “asleep in Christ” (1 Cor 15:18).

The great majority of this latter class, the Church has been in this death sleep for over two thousand years awaiting the Lord’s Second Advent and the First Resurrection. Following this event (the Second Advent of Christ) it will no longer be necessary for those who make their calling and election sure who are found faithful until death to sleep in death, but at the very moment of their deaths (in the “twinkling of an eye”) they will experience the resurrection change instantly.

I said that also in a court, if someone murders your mom and that person lists all the good things they did, would it be just for there to be no consequence?

There are always consequences for wrongs even for the just, those justified through faith in Christ. Although it is true that God will forgive us our trespasses if we confess them, this does not imply that we are completely without any responsibility for our sins. We are held accountable to what degree we understood right from wrong. If we had sufficient light enough to inform us that our course was wrong and we still persisted in the sin we would have need that these sins (unpardonable sins) be expedited. This the Lord accomplishes through the administration of “stripes” (chastisements, corrections).

All are sinners and condemned --guilty--on account of Adam's sin, but the full ransom from that sin has been paid, and so though condemned before the court of heaven, it is announced that all of our imperfections traceable to that cause are freely and fully forgiven. But neither more nor less is pardonable. All sins against light and ability are unpardonable, cannot be forgiven at any time, and hence must be expiated (atoned for) by punishment--"stripes". The world will have many such sins to be punished in the age to come, and even now in the present life, they receive in some instances much of that chastisement. As for the Church, their judgment is now and thus all their sins, which include any unpardonable sins, must be atoned for in this life time as they will not come into judgement with the world in the next age.

Thus no amount of good deeds in one’s life could amend for the willful murder of another; nevertheless even this sin is covered under the ransom sacrifice of Christ even as it was with King David who likewise committed murder willfully. In consequences of this deed (an unpardonable sin) even though he received the Lord’s forgiveness in answer to his prayers he nevertheless received of the Lord many justly due chastisements for this sin.

I will address your other question as soon as I am able, Lord bless

 

[justbyfaith]

Huh, always the tough questions asked by one who will not be convinced by N.T.scripture.

I would use NT scripture anyway. If you are brandishing a sword against someone, and someone tells you, that sword isn't sharp...the best way to convince them that it is, isn't to argue with them about the sharpness of the sword; but to use it on them. See Hebrews 4:12, Ephesians 6:17.

 

[justbyfaith]

Scriptures to consider:

Matthew 13:41-42

Matthew 13:49-50

Matthew 25:46

Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 20:10

Revelation 20:15

Romans 11:9-10 (Paul's teaching on the subject at hand; which is everlasting punishment).

I believe that @Harvest 1874 is a JW if I'm not mistaken; and therefore his posts warrant the treatment that we are exhorted towards in Romans 16:17.

 

[TruthBeliever]

Romans 2:14-16
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Those that never heard the word of God have the conscience given to them by God...

 

[Harvest 1874]

Actually they send themselves to Hell.
MARK 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


ROMANS 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Both you and Taken have referred us to Rom 1:19, 20 in answer to question #2, unfortunately neither of these responses actually addresses the question at hand, What about those who die before hearing about Jesus?

This was not a question concerning belief in God, in a creator, which the before mentioned text refer, but rather a knowledge of His son Jesus, of hearing about him, being made acquainted with him, with the only name given under the heavens by which we might be saved.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Question #2- Since God is just, my belief is that if a person will be judged on the basis of what they know. I tend to see "conscience" involved in this, maybe?

The problem with this is that depending on the individual one man’s conscience may convict him while another man’s conscience may justify him. If our conscience alone were a sufficient guide we would have no need of the scriptures (the Word of the Lord to guide and instruct us). The truth is that the majority of people (in the present fallen state) have as good as no conscience; for they are blind to the principles and laws of God which are given to guide conscience.

It is only through the knowledge of the Lord and faith in him that we may be justified, thus none could be justified that are in ignorance of the only name given.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Question 2 is much harder to answer because the Bible doesn't give us the answer. Pre-Christian era Jews could be saved, like Abraham, by faith in God. But what about those who have never heard of the true God? There are hints that they may be judged on their compassion towards the weak (Matthew 25:31-46) - but it's by no means certain that the parable should be interpreted in that way. Other religions do not lead to salvation (which is only through Christ), but it may be possible (I'm only speculating here) that an individual might work out for themselves that they can't earn God's favour and must rely on His mercy. To sum up, I would say that we can't assume that all those who have never heard of Jesus will end up in Hell, but most of them will - but sadly there's no such question mark over those who have heard and yet refuse to believe.

Actually the Bible does give an answer to this question; it’s just that most believers have overlooked it having never taken the time to fully acquaint and establish themselves in the various doctrines of Christ specifically the doctrine of the ransom, resurrection, judgement, and the two salvations all of which if rightly understood would have rendered this question rather mute as all would have been made abundantly clear.

As for hell as we had stated in our previous reply to Mayflowers first question, hell (Sheol) the grave or pit is considered the abode of the dead a great prison house to which according to the scriptures the whole family of man still descends this regardless of whether they be small or great (proud or humble), whether they be good or bad, just or unjust, believer or non-believer, the only exception being those believers who die in Christ following his Second Advent, these will not sleep in death (enter the great prison house), but will immediately upon their deaths should they make their calling and election sure experience their resurrection change instantaneously, in the “twinkling of an eye”.

 

[Harvest 1874]

All men have the knowledge of God in their being as they were created that way. (Rom. 1:19-20). God sees the heart and knows the person. Those who die having never heard the gospel, God will judge knowing their heart towards Him. Had they heard the gospel, they would have believed it. Or they would not have believed it. He knows.

Stranger

Knowledge of God of a creator this whether they chose to believe it or not, possibly, but knowledge of Jesus, of the one name given under the heavens whereby we might be saved (Acts 4:12), of the gospel message, the good tidings which shall be to all people?

Not likely, in fact the scriptures to the contrary attest that the god of this age (this “present evil world”), Satan has blinded them who believe not, not only in Christ, but from the glory of the gospel message which reveals him to us. (2 Cor 4:4), thus “darkness (ignorance) covers the earth and deep darkness the people” (Isa 60:2) But this will not last forever, for the Heavenly Father informs us that the time will come when he will prepare a feast of fat things for all the world , when he will not only feast them on fat things, refined joys and pleasures, but he will "wipe away all tears from off all faces"--destroy death and remove the vail of ignorance from all nations.

In the day of that feast it shall be said: "Lo, this is our God, we have waited for him, and he will save us...we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation" (Isa. 25:6-9.)

A salvation from the vail of ignorance, and from Adamic death, that will indeed be a delightful feast, a blessed season for poor, wretched humanity.

“For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” (Hab 2:14)

“Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess” (Isa 45:23). And again “That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” In that day, “They shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord” (Jer 31:34).

Once again it is abundantly clear that God proposes neither to save nor to condemn any man out of ignorance, to do so would be unjust.

 

[Harvest 1874]

The assumption with the second question is this: She is assuming that God somehow doesn't know already who will believe and who will not, and this is clearly not the case from scripture. The Lord was very specific about where he sent the apostles to preach the gospel (see Acts 16:6-10), and this is because He knew in advance who would be most receptive to it, as is clear from Acts 16:9. He knows very well who on this earth will receive Him and who is not at all disposed to Him, and just because some do not have the gospel preached to them does not mean God somehow overlooked them and was being unfair. If they had any aptitude to believe at all, you can rest assured God would have made certain that the gospel was presented to them.

This faulty idea presupposes that God predestinated some to salvation and some to eternal damnation out of ignorance (not His ignorance, but rather theirs), when the scriptures to the contrary state most emphatically that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Faith, faith in what? Why in Christ Jesus as the only means of salvation, for there is no salvation apart from Christ.

And how shall they profess faith in only name given under the heavens whereby we might be saved for whom they have never heard? Or as the Apostle so states it:

How shall they believe on him of whom they have not heard (on whom they have no knowledge)?” (Rom 10:14)

 

[Hidden In Him]

This faulty idea presupposes that God predestinated some to salvation and some to eternal damnation out of ignorance (not His ignorance, but rather theirs), when the scriptures to the contrary state most emphatically that without faith it is impossible to please God.

No, no. I don't believe in predestination. That would be to say He chooses who will be saved and who will not. I'm saying He simply knew who would be most receptive to the gospel and who would not, so He directed the apostles to go to those He knew were most receptive, even before they ever heard the gospel. By extension, if He knows in advance those who have no predisposition to it whatsoever, He simply doesn't worry about sending His servants to them. But they are nevertheless without excuse, for He tries to reach men's hearts across this planet every day. Most will not have Him.

 

[Harvest 1874]

As it would not be proper to question the responses of others in regards to this question without providing our own we present the following in regards to the question.

What about those who die before hearing about Jesus. Do they go to Hell?

Although as we had stated a thorough knowledge of the basic doctrines of Christ (the “milk of the word”) would have easily provided the answered to this question, nevertheless a few specific scriptures come to mind viz.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have ALL MEN to be saved (saved from the Adamic curse), AND to come unto an accurate knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim 2:3-6)

The scriptures clearly teach that because of the disobedience of Adam the judgment of death (the Adamic curse) came upon all (Rom. 5:12-19), and that it is the will of God that all men shall be saved and brought to a knowledge of the Truth.

What truth is this? That as all men were condemned in the one disobedient act of one man (Adam) so too all men are justified from that act (the original curse or sin) by the obedience and righteous act of one man, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, a testimony to be given in due time.

“For he is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins and not for ours only, but for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

Not only for the Church for those who believe now, but likewise for those who will accept and believe in him in the future.

“For we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe (now, during the gospel age).” 1 Tim 4:10

“After this (after the gathering of the elect Church is accomplished, favor will return to Israel) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins of it, and I will set it up: That the residue of men (all mankind) might seek after the Lord, even all the Gentiles (nations), upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.” (Acts 15:16, 17)

The death of Jesus was for the benefit of all men; as we read, “Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for EVERY MAN.” (Heb 2:9) Thus we see that the redemption of the human race is universal, and that the coming to a knowledge of the Truth of what the Lord has done for mankind will likewise be universal, and the purpose of this is that all may have one fair individual trial for eternal life. But here the universal feature ceases, because eternal salvation is promised only to the “willing and obedient,” both now and in the next age.

“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to ALL PEOPLE.” (Luke 2:10)

We are all aware that a large majority of the human race has lived and died ever since these words were first uttered (both before and after) having never heard of the event here referred to. In what way or sense therefore has it been a great joy to them? What possible advantage can they have derived from it?

“That was the true Light, which lights EVERY MAN that comes into the world,” (John 1:9)

How has he lightened those millions of the race who never heard of him?

How can this be true unless there is to be some future opportunity (as is attested to in our first text) in which this light is to be received?

The Lord’s message is clear, “All will know me from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD,” (Jer. 31:34)

It is men who put limits on God, if he says he will have ALL MEN to come to the knowledge of the truth then we can be assured that His will, will be done.

As for whether or not any will go to hell (second death, in this case) after having been brought to the knowledge of truth and having been given every opportunity and help in walking up the highway of holiness the scriptures are clear here too.

“And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23

 

[Harvest 1874]

No, no. I don't believe in predestination. That would be to say He chooses who will be saved and who will not. I'm saying He simply knew who would be most receptive to the gospel and who would not, so He directed the apostles to go to those He knew were most receptive, even before they ever heard the gospel. By extension, if He knows in advance those who have no predisposition to it whatsoever, He simply doesn't worry about sending His servants to them. But they are nevertheless without excuse, for He tries to reach men's hearts across this planet every day. Most will not have Him.

Actually predestination is taught in the scriptures, but it applies to the Lord’s having predestinated a specific class of individuals to be conformed to the image of his dear son, a class who will make up the body of Christ, it does not however in anyway determine who precisely the individuals are who will constitute that class. That is yet to be determined in the case of each individual running in the race as they either succeed or fail to make their calling and election sure.

Now I note you keep referring to the Lord having directed the Apostles as to where and to whom he would have them go to proclaim the gospel at the time. This was true for a time as Israel’s favor had not yet ended (the “Seventy weeks of Daniel”), and thus the gospel was still restricted to them for a while, but when this favor had ended the gospel was henceforth to be proclaim in all the world in every nation for a witness.

This message was not sent forth to convert the world, but only to gather out of the various nations in which it was sent those so incline to hear its message, the majority as we have said are presently blinded through the Adversaries deceptions and the cares and enticements of this world. These are not lost forever however for God intends that all shall be brought to the knowledge of the truth, in due time. For some that time is now during the Gospel age for others it will be in the next age when the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as waters cover the sea.

 

[Hidden In Him]

As it would not be proper to question the responses of others in regards to this question without providing our own we present the following in regards to the question.

What about those who die before hearing about Jesus. Do they go to Hell?

Although as we had stated a thorough knowledge of the basic doctrines of Christ (the “milk of the word”) would have easily provided the answered to this question, nevertheless a few specific scriptures come to mind viz.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have ALL MEN to be saved (saved from the Adamic curse), AND to come unto an accurate knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim 2:3-6)

The scriptures clearly teach that because of the disobedience of Adam the judgment of death (the Adamic curse) came upon all (Rom. 5:12-19), and that it is the will of God that all men shall be saved and brought to a knowledge of the Truth.

What truth is this? That as all men were condemned in the one disobedient act of one man (Adam) so too all men are justified from that act (the original curse or sin) by the obedience and righteous act of one man, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, a testimony to be given in due time.

“For he is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins and not for ours only, but for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

Not only for the Church for those who believe now, but likewise for those who will accept and believe in him in the future.

“For we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe (now, during the gospel age).” 1 Tim 4:10

“After this (after the gathering of the elect Church is accomplished, favor will return to Israel) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins of it, and I will set it up: That the residue of men (all mankind) might seek after the Lord, even all the Gentiles (nations), upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.” (Acts 15:16, 17)

The death of Jesus was for the benefit of all men; as we read, “Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for EVERY MAN.” (Heb 2:9) Thus we see that the redemption of the human race is universal, and that the coming to a knowledge of the Truth of what the Lord has done for mankind will likewise be universal, and the purpose of this is that all may have one fair individual trial for eternal life. But here the universal feature ceases, because eternal salvation is promised only to the “willing and obedient,” both now and in the next age.

“Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to ALL PEOPLE.” (Luke 2:10)

We are all aware that a large majority of the human race has lived and died ever since these words were first uttered (both before and after) having never heard of the event here referred to. In what way or sense therefore has it been a great joy to them? What possible advantage can they have derived from it?

“That was the true Light, which lights EVERY MAN that comes into the world,” (John 1:9)

How has he lightened those millions of the race who never heard of him?

How can this be true unless there is to be some future opportunity (as is attested to in our first text) in which this light is to be received?

The Lord’s message is clear, “All will know me from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD,” (Jer. 31:34)

It is men who put limits on God, if he says he will have ALL MEN to come to the knowledge of the truth then we can be assured that His will, will be done.

As for whether or not any will go to hell (second death, in this case) after having been brought to the knowledge of truth and having been given every opportunity and help in walking up the highway of holiness the scriptures are clear here too.

“And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23

Thanks for clearing this up, LoL. I had to read through this twice, and it reads like you are trying to support a position you never actually make.

If you can, answer the question directly in one or two simple sentences.
Blessings in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that @Harvest 1874 is a JW if I'm not mistaken; and therefore his posts warrant the treatment that we are exhorted towards in Romans 16:17.

 

[Hidden In Him]

the gospel was henceforth to be proclaim in all the world in every nation for a witness.

Yes, but until the time of Christ, as you yourself said, His servants were restricted to going to Israel. This again suggests a selectiveness about who He was proclaiming Himself to.

This message was not sent forth to convert the world, but only to gather out of the various nations in which it was sent those so incline to hear its message, the majority as we have said are presently blinded through the Adversaries deceptions and the cares and enticements of this world.

I agree.

These are not lost forever however for God intends that all shall be brought to the knowledge of the truth, in due time. For some that time is now during the Gospel age for others it will be in the next age when the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as waters cover the sea.

Again, this comes off as very vague. You would have to go into far more detail on watch the specifics are here before I could even comment.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Thanks for clearing this up, LoL. I had to read through this twice, and it reads like you are trying to support a position you never actually make.

If you can, answer the question directly in one or two simple sentences.
Blessings in Christ.

I believe the scriptures speak for themselves in essence they say that no one will be condemned to hell (in this case second death) until first they have been enlightened to the truth that by the grace of God our Lord Jesus has paid the price for all of us, that “by his stripes we are healed” Isa 53:5

 

[justbyfaith]

We ought to let the blind be leaders of the blind.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I believe that @Harvest 1874 is a JW if I'm not mistaken; and therefore his posts warrant the treatment that we are exhorted towards in Romans 16:17.

Well, I thought he said he was a member of the Bible Students Movement, which is a distant offshoot of Adventism.
Bible Student movement - Wikipedia

As for Romans 16:17, when you are on a Christian forum like this it is difficult to expect unity, as their is generally no unity to begin with and Forums don't generally exercise discipline against false teachers like a church would. Forums are more of a place for debate rather than unity. I do believe in shunning those who post only to generate strife and division, but I believe that is not Harvest's motives at all and he truly believes in his positions, so he's the type who should be engaged rather than ignored or shunned.

But thanks for the post. In certain cases something similar would indeed apply.

 

[Harvest 1874]

We stated:These are not lost forever however for God intends that all shall be brought to the knowledge of the truth, in due time. For some that time is now during the Gospel age for others it will be in the next age when the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as waters cover the sea.

Again, this comes off as very vague. You would have to go into far more detail on watch the specifics are here before I could even comment.

I believe we have already provided all the necessary scriptures which prove this to be so, you may need to review them again for yourself.