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Hidden In Him

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I believe the scriptures speak for themselves in essence they say that no one will be condemned to hell (in this case second death) until first they have been enlightened to the truth that by the grace of God our Lord Jesus has paid the price for all of us, that “by his stripes we are healedIsa 53:5

That's kind of what I thought you were getting at. So for those who were not presented the gospel in this life, where and when will it be presented to them?
I believe we have already provided all the necessary scriptures which prove this to be so, you may need to review them again for yourself.

Well my apologies, but again you always seem to be supporting statements that are never made very directly. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I only have so much attention span I'm willing to expend, and if a point that everything is supporting is not being made very directly and clearly, I start to view it with suspicion, as suggesting doing so might be viewed as heretical and therefore needs to be presented in a somewhat veiled way.
 
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Nancy

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The problem with this is that depending on the individual one man’s conscience may convict him while another man’s conscience may justify him. If our conscience alone were a sufficient guide we would have no need of the scriptures (the Word of the Lord to guide and instruct us). The truth is that the majority of people (in the present fallen state) have as good as no conscience; for they are blind to the principles and laws of God which are given to guide conscience.

It is only through the knowledge of the Lord and faith in him that we may be justified, thus none could be justified that are in ignorance of the only name given.
Hello Harvest,
"The problem with this is that depending on the individual one man’s conscience may convict him while another man’s conscience may justify him."
To one person who takes a glass of wine and is not convicted, has a clear conscience in Christ that he/she is not sinning. Then we have those who DO believe it is a sin, so if THEY take that glass of wine, it would be sin to them. Also, I believe if a person who has the freedom to have a glass of wine, decides to have one in front of the one who believes it is sin...then that one should refrain from having that glass of wine.

"If our conscience alone were a sufficient guide we would have no need of the scriptures (the Word of the Lord to guide and instruct us)"
I never even came close to referencing this! When I spoke of "conscience" I was speaking to judgement, those who would be "a law unto themselves" Holy Scripture is definitely the final Word.

"It is only through the knowledge of the Lord and faith in him that we may be justified, thus none could be justified that are in ignorance of the only name given." No argument there! :)



Romans Chapter 14

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
 
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Harvest 1874

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That's kind of what I thought you were getting at. So for those who were not presented the gospel in this life, where and when will it be presented to them?

That should be obvious, in the next age when the Lord has established his kingdom throughout all the earth, and the dead who “sleep in Jesus” are resurrected, as is so indicated in the scriptures.

God hath appointed a day (a thousand year day) in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained”, “Jesus Christ, the righteous." (Acts 17:31; 1 John 2:1)

"When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isa. 26:9)

During the thousand-year reign of Christ, when the dead are being awakened, they will "stand before God" in the sense that, through the redemptive work of Christ, the original condemnation will no longer count against them, and each will have an opportunity to believe, obey, and live if they so choose. But this opportunity requires a further manifestation of divine grace, knowledge.

The
"books" must be opened. This is a pictorial way of telling us that he will judge the people "with his truth." (Psa 96:13) The "books" contain the truth, and must be opened, for as long they remain closed, the truth is concealed and the people "comprehend it not."

Thus we read in Rev 20:12, during the millennial reign of Christ when he has established his throne viz. the “Great White Throne”, representative of purity and justice he will judge the people with righteousness, but first in order for them to believe (and to obey), they will need to learn, to be brought to an accurate knowledge of the truth, the same truth which very few save the true Church now possess, the true Gospel, the tidings of great joy, the plan of God for the world’s redemption, which for so long had been hidden from them.

And I saw the dead, small and great (both humble and proud), standing before God (justified from the original condemnation), and books were openedAnd the dead were judged according to their works (according to their conformity and obedience to or), by the things which were written in the books.

The dead includes all of the Adamic race who during this Gospel age have not escaped from the condemnation that is on the world—DEATH—by becoming partakers of spiritual life through Jesus

“This verse relative to the dead shows us how all those death condemned ones will be on trial before the White Throne. As surely as it is a throne of purity and Justice, their trial, as ours now, will be full, fair and impartial. The Judge himself has already become their bail, so that they shall have a full and sufficient trial before him, to attain perfection of human life.

The books opened, according to the rulings of which they will be tried, we understand to be the books of the Bible (the Holy Scriptures). The church, now on trial, is being judged according to these same books—and none now are on trial, to whom those books are not to some degree opened (understood). This too, accords with Jesus’ words: `my words shall judge you in the last day (period)—the Millennial day. (John 12:48)

“The words of Jesus will no longer be hidden under parables and dark sayings, that those who hear might hear and not understand; but the secret things will be uncovered. `The mystery of God’the churchbeing finished, the books will be opened, and the knowledge of the Lord shall fill the whole earth as the waters cover the sea” (Isa 11:9). For God `will have all men to be saved, [redeemed] and [then] to come unto the knowledge of the truth.’ (1 Tim. 2:4)

In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.” Isa 29:18

“…I will put my laws into their minds and write them in their hearts, and will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for ALL shall know me from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” (Jer 31:33, 34)

I will attempt to address the remainder of your comments in my next post.
 

Harvest 1874

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Well my apologies, but again you always seem to be supporting statements that are never made very directly. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I only have so much attention span I'm willing to expend, and if a point that everything is supporting is not being made very directly and clearly, I start to view it with suspicion, as suggesting doing so might be viewed as heretical and therefore needs to be presented in a somewhat veiled way.

Once again the question was: What about those who die before hearing about Jesus. Do they go to Hell?

That is to say what happens to those who never heard of Jesus, not just about the man, but more importantly about whom he truly was and what he accomplished for the sake of mankind? Are those who never hear the truth about Jesus condemned to hell (we’ll assume in this instance that reference is being made to the hell as taught through the creeds of men), to the hell of eternal torment?

In answer to this question we attempted to show that it is not only God’s will that all men be saved from the original condemnation which was upon them (Adamic sin), but likewise that they must all be brought to an accurate knowledge of the truth as to whom Christ truly was and what he accomplished for them in giving himself as a ransom for all, and since it is self-evident that not all mankind has been brought to this knowledge they must be given some future opportunity to do so. For it is written: “That (he) was the true Light, which lights EVERY MAN that comes into the world,” (John 1:9).

We provided 11 scriptural citations (witnesses) in support of this position, the scriptural bar being that “…a threefold cord is not quickly broken” (Eccl 4:12), that is to say generally more than three witnesses prove a point “…by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.” Matt 18:16

Now I admit that sometimes in my eagerness to respond to questions and comments I tend to get a little over zealous in my response’s attempting to incorporate every scripture I know to support the facts and that this tends to overwhelm some, but it is just my way as I like to be as through as I can, please forgive me the inconvenience this causes.
 

Harvest 1874

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Hello Harvest,
"The problem with this is that depending on the individual one man’s conscience may convict him while another man’s conscience may justify him."
To one person who takes a glass of wine and is not convicted, has a clear conscience in Christ that he/she is not sinning. Then we have those who DO believe it is a sin, so if THEY take that glass of wine, it would be sin to them. Also, I believe if a person who has the freedom to have a glass of wine, decides to have one in front of the one who believes it is sin...then that one should refrain from having that glass of wine.

With this we are in agreement, however the question was concerning whether or not those who perish without a knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord go to hell or whether they will be given another opportunity to come to the knowledge of the truth if they had not heard in this life time.

You are correct in your assessment that they will be judged on what they know, presently the vast majority of mankind who have ever lived and died has known very little. It is not the intention of the Lord to judge any in ignorance, but rather his intention is that they all must first to be brought to knowledge of the truth before they are judged (tried).

Without faith (belief) it is impossible to please God, faith is established, not in ignorance and credulity, but in the Word of God. The Lord never uttered a word respecting the salvation of any in ignorance.


"If our conscience alone were a sufficient guide we would have no need of the scriptures (the Word of the Lord to guide and instruct us)"

I never even came close to referencing this! When I spoke of "conscience" I was speaking to judgement, those who would be "a law unto themselves" Holy Scripture is definitely the final Word.

Let’s take a look at the text.

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day (the thousand year day) when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” (Rom 2:14-16)

“Keep in mind what the apostle here was discussing as he addressed the Jews, in essence he was saying, ‘You Jews have the Mosaic law-and it did not save you, and likewise the heathen (the Gentiles), while they have not a Mosaic law, have a law in their consciences, and they are condemned by that law even as you Jews are condemned by the law of Moses’, and then he winds up the argument by saying that ‘Every mouth must be stopped and the whole world become guilty before God.’

And then he proceeds to show that even as the Jew could not be released by keeping Moses' law, neither could the heathen be released by keeping the law of conscience. That the whole world must accept Christ because there is none other name under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.”

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved... And how shall they believe (accept) him in whom they have not heard?” (Rom 10:13, 14)

Thus it is that knowledge is a prerequisite to salvation.
 
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Hidden In Him

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That should be obvious, in the next age when the Lord has established his kingdom throughout all the earth, and the dead who “sleep in Jesus” are resurrected, as is so indicated in the scriptures.

God hath appointed a day (a thousand year day) in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained”, “Jesus Christ, the righteous." (Acts 17:31; 1 John 2:1)

"When thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isa. 26:9)

During the thousand-year reign of Christ, when the dead are being awakened, they will "stand before God" in the sense that, through the redemptive work of Christ, the original condemnation will no longer count against them, and each will have an opportunity to believe, obey, and live if they so choose. But this opportunity requires a further manifestation of divine grace, knowledge.

The
"books" must be opened. This is a pictorial way of telling us that he will judge the people "with his truth." (Psa 96:13) The "books" contain the truth, and must be opened, for as long they remain closed, the truth is concealed and the people "comprehend it not."

Thus we read in Rev 20:12, during the millennial reign of Christ when he has established his throne viz. the “Great White Throne”, representative of purity and justice he will judge the people with righteousness, but first in order for them to believe (and to obey), they will need to learn, to be brought to an accurate knowledge of the truth, the same truth which very few save the true Church now possess, the true Gospel, the tidings of great joy, the plan of God for the world’s redemption, which for so long had been hidden from them.

And I saw the dead, small and great (both humble and proud), standing before God (justified from the original condemnation), and books were openedAnd the dead were judged according to their works (according to their conformity and obedience to or), by the things which were written in the books.

The dead includes all of the Adamic race who during this Gospel age have not escaped from the condemnation that is on the world—DEATH—by becoming partakers of spiritual life through Jesus

“This verse relative to the dead shows us how all those death condemned ones will be on trial before the White Throne. As surely as it is a throne of purity and Justice, their trial, as ours now, will be full, fair and impartial. The Judge himself has already become their bail, so that they shall have a full and sufficient trial before him, to attain perfection of human life.

The books opened, according to the rulings of which they will be tried, we understand to be the books of the Bible (the Holy Scriptures). The church, now on trial, is being judged according to these same books—and none now are on trial, to whom those books are not to some degree opened (understood). This too, accords with Jesus’ words: `my words shall judge you in the last day (period)—the Millennial day. (John 12:48)

“The words of Jesus will no longer be hidden under parables and dark sayings, that those who hear might hear and not understand; but the secret things will be uncovered. `The mystery of God’the churchbeing finished, the books will be opened, and the knowledge of the Lord shall fill the whole earth as the waters cover the sea” (Isa 11:9). For God `will have all men to be saved, [redeemed] and [then] to come unto the knowledge of the truth.’ (1 Tim. 2:4)

In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.” Isa 29:18

“…I will put my laws into their minds and write them in their hearts, and will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for ALL shall know me from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” (Jer 31:33, 34)

I will attempt to address the remainder of your comments in my next post.

My goodness. No wonder you weren't stating things directly, LoL. Is this your own personal belief, or does this accurately represent the beliefs of Bible Students?
 

Harvest 1874

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My goodness. No wonder you weren't stating things directly, LoL. Is this your own personal belief, or does this accurately represent the beliefs of Bible Students?

This as we have shown is the testimony of the Scriptures, if you can't see this then your eyes are yet closed to the truth, obviously you have been to deeply indoctrinated in the doctrines and teachings of men. The only remedy for this darkness is to seek the Lord in prayer and pray that he anoints your eyes with "eye salve" (Rev 3:18) that you might see, that you might be able to comprehend (to see, to appreciate) with all saints the lengths, breadths, heights, and depths of God's loving providence not only for us, but for the whole groaning creation.

Only as we are in a humble attitude of mind can we get a true view of the divine plan of the ages. Otherwise we will continually find our view of God and of his Word and plan obstructed both by self (by our own preconceived ideas and opinions), and those taught through the doctrines and precepts of men.

"Humble yourself therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." (1 Pet. 5:6)
 

Hidden In Him

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This as we have shown is the testimony of the Scriptures, if you can't see this then your eyes are yet closed to the truth, obviously you have been to deeply indoctrinated in the doctrines and teachings of men. The only remedy for this darkness is to seek the Lord in prayer and pray that he anoints your eyes with "eye salve" (Rev 3:18) that you might see, that you might be able to comprehend (to see, to appreciate) with all saints the lengths, breadths, heights, and depths of God's loving providence not only for us, but for the whole groaning creation.

Only as we are in a humble attitude of mind can we get a true view of the divine plan of the ages. Otherwise we will continually find our view of God and of his Word and plan obstructed both by self (by our own preconceived ideas and opinions), and those taught through the doctrines and precepts of men.

"Humble yourself therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." (1 Pet. 5:6)

Well, I do agree with you on the humility thing, and it's not as if I was mocking you by my response. I just think you are compounding one error with another. I view the concept of soul sleep as a tradition of men, and you are adding to that doctrine that all who have not heard the gospel will have another chance at life to receive Christ after the resurrection. This to me negates all the decisions they made in this life, which is something I cannot accept.

But I appreciate you at least being forward. I couldn't make out what the actual theology behind your posts was.

Thanks again, and again don't think I was mocking you. I poke fun at people a lot, but I wasn't trying to be insulting.
 
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